The 2016 US Election (Part I)

[Mr Bean]

Hillary-Did I mention I was a Woman?
Hillary-I should mention I'm a woman
Hillary-Tell your daughters they can be President, like me because I am Woomaan and I shall be President.

[Mr Bean]

Fun facts as of this instant Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton have each talked for over twenty six minutes.

Jim Webb has 5 minutes, Chafee has 7 minutes and OMalley got ten minutes.

[Exonerate]

Nice to see Anderson throwing some fastballs to all candidates.

As somebody who broadly supports Bernie's policies but isn't too familiar with his personal style, he's not a very good politician is he? Flounders a little and is too worried about actually being right than sounding right. He should've hammered Hillary on the emails or at least not defended her - who is he campaigning for, Clinton or himself? There he goes again - agreeing with Clinton. I'm glad his entrance into the race has pulled Hillary to the left but if she gets the nomination, she's just going to ditch all the camouflage.

Hillary keeps bringing up the Copenhagen conference... I suspect China might have a different version of events.

[Mr Bean]

The lack of extra debates are going to show.
It's at best a three person debate between Hillary, Bernie and possibly maybe Martin O Malley.


Also terrible line of the night Hillary-I represented Wall Street-Clinton

[The Romulan Republic]

Nice to see Anderson throwing some fastballs to all candidates.

As somebody who broadly supports Bernie's policies but isn't too familiar with his personal style, he's not a very good politician is he? Flounders a little and is too worried about actually being right than sounding right. He should've hammered Hillary on the emails or at least not defended her - who is he campaigning for, Clinton or himself? There he goes again - agreeing with Clinton. I'm glad his entrance into the race has pulled Hillary to the left but if she gets the nomination, she's just going to ditch all the camouflage.

Hillary keeps bringing up the Copenhagen conference... I suspect China might have a different version of events.

The resounding applause Sanders got when he stood with Clinton on the email issue would seem to contradict you.

That said, I was a bit disappointed with Sanders. He's a bit too extreme for me, but perhaps even more, he seemed confused and unclear at times, and not at all "Presidential".

That said, he can't worry about saying the politically expedient thing, because his appeal is built, in part at least, on an image of consistency and principle. Trying to say the expedient thing might simply make him another dishonest politician in the eyes of the public.

[Gandalf]

That said, I was a bit disappointed with Sanders. He's a bit too extreme for me, but perhaps even more, he seemed confused and unclear at times, and not at all "Presidential".

What is being "presidential," and why is it a thing?

[The Jester]

And how is Sanders extreme?

[Borgholio]

Sanders came off as pretty far to the left. While I agree with what he's saying, he probably won't gain national traction since he's proud of being labelled a Socialist...and we all know how us 'Murricans are afraid of socialists. :-/

[Raw Shark]

"Presidential," is generally used as a code word for, "Telegenic, and/or has charisma, and/or has great hair," around these parts. Sanders does not excel in those fields.

If Sanders takes New Hampshire and/or Iowa, all bets are off. If he doesn't, he's probably fucked.

Sanders is considered extreme by some first and foremost for even using the word Soscialist to describe himself ever, and also for taking some positions nobody else in the serious race has, such as being the one senator out of one hundred to vote against the Patriot Act, and his ultra-rare successful left-wing filibuster of the renewal of the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy.

[Exonerate]

The resounding applause Sanders got when he stood with Clinton on the email issue would seem to contradict you.

That said, I was a bit disappointed with Sanders. He's a bit too extreme for me, but perhaps even more, he seemed confused and unclear at times, and not at all "Presidential".

That said, he can't worry about saying the politically expedient thing, because his appeal is built, in part at least, on an image of consistency and principle. Trying to say the expedient thing might simply make him another dishonest politician in the eyes of the public.

A Democratic crowd applauded when Sanders defended Clinton against what they see as a partisan attack? You don't say... Unfortunately for Clinton, unlike Benghazi, I think the classified email thing has real legs and if she makes it to the general election, you can be sure the Republicans will go after her on it. It's not political expedience to go after somebody for real lapses in judgment or stand aside as they take the hit for their own actions.

Chafee's response on Glass-Steagall was painful to watch... totally reversed the points he scored by pointing out he did his homework on Iraq and others didn't.

Webb is barking up the wrong tree with his military man appeal.

[Borgholio]

I think the classified email thing has real legs

Thing is, there wasn't really any classified email thing in the first place. National security discussions did take place but no secrets were sent out and nothing classified was really leaked. Everything done was perfectly acceptable and legal at the time as well.

[Elheru Aran]

And the Republicans outright admitted that the Benghazi committee's real purpose was to hurt Clinton, rather than to find out whether there was any legitimate wrongdoing regarding Benghazi itself.

[Knife]

Meh, liberals are war weary, in fact I think most American's are war weary. Domestic policy will take front stage both in the primaries and probably in the general. I don't think Sanders failed at all in his foreign relations questions, though admittedly not his strong suit. But I don't think it will hurt him at all.

[Exonerate]

Thing is, there wasn't really any classified email thing in the first place. National security discussions did take place but no secrets were sent out and nothing classified was really leaked. Everything done was perfectly acceptable and legal at the time as well.

We might want to take this to another thread, but yes, there was.

"It's born classified," said J. William Leonard, a former director of the U.S. government's Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO). Leonard was director of ISOO, part of the White House's National Archives and Records Administration, from 2002 until 2008, and worked for both the Bill Clinton and George W. Bush administrations.

"If a foreign minister just told the secretary of state something in confidence, by U.S. rules that is classified at the moment it's in U.S. channels and U.S. possession," he said in a telephone interview, adding that for the State Department to say otherwise was "blowing smoke."

The findings of the Reuters review are separate from the recent analysis by the inspector general for U.S. intelligence agencies, who said last month that his office found four emails that contained classified government secrets at the time they were sent in a sample of 40 emails not yet made public.

Clinton and her senior staff routinely sent foreign government information among themselves on unsecured networks several times a month, if the State Department's markings are correct. Within the 30 email threads reviewed by Reuters, Clinton herself sent at least 17 emails that contained this sort of information. In at least one case it was to a friend, Sidney Blumenthal, not in government.

The information appears to include privately shared comments by a prime minister, several foreign ministers and a foreign spy chief, unredacted bits of the emails show. Typically, Clinton and her staff first learned the information in private meetings, telephone calls or, less often, in email exchanges with the foreign officials.

This issue is separate from the usage of a private email server and the Benghazi witch hunt. Regardless of whether or not the emails were marked as classified, it doesn't change the fact that classified info was mishandled and she should've known better. The Intelligence IG has stated the emails were classified when they were sent - State Department can disagree all they want, but by any reasonable reading of classification rules, at a minimum, somebody along the way messed up.

[Zeropoint]

is too worried about actually being right than sounding right.

This is definitely a quality I want in a leader.

[Gandalf]

"Presidential," is generally used as a code word for, "Telegenic, and/or has charisma, and/or has great hair," around these parts. Sanders does not excel in those fields.

Interesting. The more I think about it, the more I think that the idea of "looking presidential" may be at the core of everything wrong with US politics. Though at least this explains Ronald Reagan.

"He sold weapons to Iran and then lied about it."
"But... look at that hair!"

Say what you will about Sanders, he's clearly not too consumed by his appearance. That should be a selling point in itself.

[Borgholio]

Say what you will about Sanders, he's clearly not too consumed by his appearance. That should be a selling point in itself.

To be honest, as much as I like what he's saying, his appearance is (IMO) that of a tired old man. I just am not filled with confidence that he would have the energy to be a strong leader. Hell, at times during the debate he looked like he might not live through his first term.

[Thanas]

This is beyond stupid. Judge people by what they achieve, not how they look. FFS, Bismarck, Stresemann, Erhard, Kohl, Merkel...none of them look in any kind presidential and they are some of the most accomplished statesmen of my country.

I swear if FDR would be running today the question would be "but could he handle the stress of the office". Geez.

[Jub]

To be honest, as much as I like what he's saying, his appearance is (IMO) that of a tired old man. I just am not filled with confidence that he would have the energy to be a strong leader. Hell, at times during the debate he looked like he might not live through his first term.

Why does having energy make one a better or worse leader? As long as he can outline his goals and stick to his guns I could care less if he's a firebrand or a reserved old man.

[Borgholio]

To be honest, as much as I like what he's saying, his appearance is (IMO) that of a tired old man. I just am not filled with confidence that he would have the energy to be a strong leader. Hell, at times during the debate he looked like he might not live through his first term.

Why does having energy make one a better or worse leader? As long as he can outline his goals and stick to his guns I could care less if he's a firebrand or a reserved old man.

Because if his political opponents think that he's a fragile old man, they might be less likely to take him seriously.

[Jub]

Because if his political opponents think that he's a fragile old man, they might be less likely to take him seriously.

How well did being full of energy work for Obama?

[Borgholio]

It worked well enough during his presidential debates vs Romney. His first debate he pretty much lost because he was passive the whole time and Romney took advantage of it. His next debate he beat the hell out of Romney by changing his entire attitude. If Sanders won the nomination and had to go up against...say...Trump in the debates, he'd probably get walked all over.

[The Romulan Republic]

The resounding applause Sanders got when he stood with Clinton on the email issue would seem to contradict you.

That said, I was a bit disappointed with Sanders. He's a bit too extreme for me, but perhaps even more, he seemed confused and unclear at times, and not at all "Presidential".

That said, he can't worry about saying the politically expedient thing, because his appeal is built, in part at least, on an image of consistency and principle. Trying to say the expedient thing might simply make him another dishonest politician in the eyes of the public.

A Democratic crowd applauded when Sanders defended Clinton against what they see as a partisan attack? You don't say... Unfortunately for Clinton, unlike Benghazi, I think the classified email thing has real legs and if she makes it to the general election, you can be sure the Republicans will go after her on it. It's not political expedience to go after somebody for real lapses in judgment or stand aside as they take the hit for their own actions.

Chafee's response on Glass-Steagall was painful to watch... totally reversed the points he scored by pointing out he did his homework on Iraq and others didn't.

Webb is barking up the wrong tree with his military man appeal.

Oh, their'd be nothing wrong with Sanders criticizing Hillary Clinton for a genuine failure. However, I would remind you that last night was not the general election. It was a primary debate. It was about appealing to the party supporters. And Sanders did that.

Agreed about Webb. While Democrats aren't necessarily anti-military, Webb's background and politics in that regard will probably help far less (when they don't actively hurt him) with Democrats than with conservatives or independents. Between his poll numbers and his performance last night and how its likely to play with the Democratic base, I honestly think he should just do himself and us a favour and drop out.

I'd also like to clarify what I mean by Sanders not looking Presidential. Its... well, when I think Presidential, I think something along the lines of serious, dignified, and professional. Something like how Hillary Clinton presented herself. Other people may have different definitions, of course. But Sanders... well, as much as I like some of his agenda, their's no denying that his on-stage persona is half-firebrand, half-old man shouting at the damn kids.

Doesn't seem to have hurt him, though. Sanders received massive online/social media attention and raised over a million dollars after last night:

https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/pr ... ail-remark

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) raised $1.3 million in four hours after the first Democratic presidential debate started on Tuesday night, according to his campaign.

His campaign blasted out an email seeking donations from his line defending Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server as secretary of State.

ADVERTISEMENT

The remark from Sanders was the most retweeted of any candidate of the night with more than 12,000 shares on social media. It was also one of the night’s most memorable moments and helped contribute to Sanders dominating attention on social media and in online searches.
Sanders slightly edged out Clinton for most Twitter mentions during the debate, with 41 percent of the tweets to Clinton’s 39 percent, based on metrics released by the social media platform.

The three other candidates on stage – former Sen. Jim Webb (D-Va.), former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley and former Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee — took a combined 20 percent.

Sanders, who also gained the most followers on Twitter during the debate in Las Vegas, was also the most searched candidate throughout the debate based on data provided by Google.


Sanders was also listed as the top candidate discussed during the debate on Facebook.

The self-described democratic socialist has an avid online following, which often boosts his social media profile even during Republican presidential debates.

Sanders's campaign reported raising $26 million during the previous quarter this year, closely behind Clinton's $28 million. That included $2 million in online donations for Sanders on the final filing day of that quarter.

[Jub]

It worked well enough during his presidential debates vs Romney. His first debate he pretty much lost because he was passive the whole time and Romney took advantage of it. His next debate he beat the hell out of Romney by changing his entire attitude. If Sanders won the nomination and had to go up against...say...Trump in the debates, he'd probably get walked all over.

Did it in any way help his as president? I know that debates sway certain voters, but when it comes to running a nation debate skills don't seem to mean much in terms of what you can accomplish.

[Channel72]

A Sanders Presidency is one of those "too good to be true" outcomes. I don't think he could win a general election in America, as things stand now, even though I would gladly vote for him. Hillary certainly could win a general election - easily. In a way, Sanders is like the Sarah Palin of the American Left. And believe me, I already really, really resent myself for even comparing Sanders with that useless idiot, but it just might be a useful comparison in the sense that both of them are likely too far to a political extremity to carry a general election. To put it another way, I just don't see any "purple" state giving their electoral votes to this guy. Whereas, many purple states would easily go with Hillary. Sanders is a liberal, East Coast, New York/Vermont Jew with a Jewish/Brooklyn accent. People in swing states aren't voting for him (except for all of Boca Raton, obviously).