Rogue One (Spoilers)

[Galvatron]

Yes, I get it that Imperial officers don't want to antagonize the Senate, but it seems more like a case of not wanting to create unnecessary headaches rather than fearing the Pope's non-existent armies.

If the Senate represented worlds with military forces of their own, their sympathy for the rebellion could constitute more than an "unnecessary headache." Even if they didn't have their own forces, they could impose embargoes on any resources that the Empire depended upon them for.

You saw what happened once it became obvious that a sitting member of the Senate was caught in the act of spying for the Rebellion: the body was adjourned for good. Some threat that was.

Actually, I saw Vader tell his aide to send a distress signal and inform the Senate that all aboard Leia's ship were killed. Hence, the Senate was never told that she was taken prisoner.

And it wasn't until the Death Star was almost fully operational that the Senate was adjourned for good. At that point, there wasn't much of anything that could seriously threaten the Empire.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's weird, they were so worried about that then mere hours later the Emperor just solved that problem for them.

Hmmm... the Emperor WAS mentioned beforehand in ANH, right? It's amazing, in a usual movie they'd show us the supreme overlord but in ANH, everyone there was just doing their jobs. Vader wasn't the boss. Yes, Tarkin was probably the highest ranking (civilian) there... but he didn't act like the galactic overlord either.

It's a nice touch.

[Imperial Overlord]

If I recall correctly, Lucas's original idea for the Emperor was a ambitious career politician who was backed by factions who stood to gain from his rise to power and then became increasingly isolated from the day to day running of the Empire by the men he appointed. He ended up making Palpatine a more forceful figure, but you can really see that idea at work in the Death Star meeting in Episode IV where Tarkin and the rest are discussing making galactic policy and barely mention the emperor.

It's reconcilable, of course, with Palpatine hiding his badass Sith self from most of the galaxy. Vader, his right hand man, is at the meeting. The dynamic of it shifts. Vader goes from a figure of declining authority joining the new powerful cabal of Death Star technocrats to shore up his status and possibly usurp the Emperor to the deadly hand of the Emperor watching over a man given wide authority to act and the power of the Death Star. In the earlier interpretation the change in power relations is why Tarkin is so confident of handling Vader, because Tarkin is the rising power. The alternate explanation, that Vader and Tarkin have a long and close working relationship, works in either interpretation of the meeting and Palpatine's role.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Shouldn't Worf have a Russian accent?

[Channel72]

Shouldn't Worf have a Russian accent?

No. Worf Rozhenko is an all-American hero.

Or maybe some systems revolted and are currently being put down by other Imperial forces. Not that it matters. Between the battles of Scarif and Yavin, the Rebels' long-range fighter force has been almost wiped out and they were forced to flee for their lives at least twice. So both victories came at a terrible cost -one that can't be made up for right away, no matter how many systems revolt. Luckily for the Rebels, by the time they attack Endor, they have not only recovered their losses, they've acquired ships that can slug it out with the biggest and baddest ships the Empire can muster. That's pretty amazing for a force reduced to three fighters after Yavin.

Yeah. I had always assumed that the Mon-Cal ships we see in Return of the Jedi were the result of a general wave of support for the Rebellion that happened post-ANH, but Rogue One shows us that the Rebels had them even before Yavin. Regardless, the battle of Yavin didn't reduce the entire Rebel fleet to just 3 fighters... there were no Rebel capital ships at that battle, so clearly they were elsewhere.

[Elfdart]

You saw what happened once it became obvious that a sitting member of the Senate was caught in the act of spying for the Rebellion: the body was adjourned for good. Some threat that was.

Actually, I saw Vader tell his aide to send a distress signal and inform the Senate that all aboard Leia's ship were killed. Hence, the Senate was never told that she was taken prisoner.

And it wasn't until the Death Star was almost fully operational that the Senate was adjourned for good. At that point, there wasn't much of anything that could seriously threaten the Empire.

I would surmise that (a) the Emperor was told that a senator was caught spying and that (b) it was a factor in his decision to disband the body.

Yeah. I had always assumed that the Mon-Cal ships we see in Return of the Jedi were the result of a general wave of support for the Rebellion that happened post-ANH, but Rogue One shows us that the Rebels had them even before Yavin. Regardless, the battle of Yavin didn't reduce the entire Rebel fleet to just 3 fighters... there were no Rebel capital ships at that battle, so clearly they were elsewhere.

Not the entire rebellion, but the squadrons at Yavin were.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would assume that if their were any Rebel capital ships around at the time of the Battle of Yavin, they would have been kept well away from the Death Star, as they would have been absolutely useless sitting ducks in the attack on it.

[Adam Reynolds]

Or maybe some systems revolted and are currently being put down by other Imperial forces. Not that it matters. Between the battles of Scarif and Yavin, the Rebels' long-range fighter force has been almost wiped out and they were forced to flee for their lives at least twice. So both victories came at a terrible cost -one that can't be made up for right away, no matter how many systems revolt. Luckily for the Rebels, by the time they attack Endor, they have not only recovered their losses, they've acquired ships that can slug it out with the biggest and baddest ships the Empire can muster. That's pretty amazing for a force reduced to three fighters after Yavin.

Yeah. I had always assumed that the Mon-Cal ships we see in Return of the Jedi were the result of a general wave of support for the Rebellion that happened post-ANH, but Rogue One shows us that the Rebels had them even before Yavin. Regardless, the battle of Yavin didn't reduce the entire Rebel fleet to just 3 fighters... there were no Rebel capital ships at that battle, so clearly they were elsewhere.

One solution is that the main Mon Cal fleet refused to give proper support until after Yavin, with Admiral Raddus as an extremist willing to committ early, which also fits his brash action to attack Scarif against orders. Notably his vessel also appears much weaker than the ships used at Endor, several of which are significantly larger than star destroyers.

Anyway, as for the "dark time" of The Empire Strikes Back, that presumably mostly refers to the group at Hoth, who are continually on the run as a result of being associated with the Death Star's destruction. The rest of the Alliance is mostly flying under the radar as much as possible, until Endor forces them to commit to a major conventional operation. The fact that the Empire had to sortie major fleet elements is actually a win for the Rebel Alliance as it shows the political weakness of the Empire. While it was bad for the heroes, Hoth and its aftermath was actually a victory for the Rebel Alliance, in which they avoided destruction and thus allowed the movement to gain momentum.

[Galvatron]

One solution is that the main Mon Cal fleet refused to give proper support until after Yavin, with Admiral Raddus as an extremist willing to committ early, which also fits his brash action to attack Scarif against orders. Notably his vessel also appears much weaker than the ships used at Endor, several of which are significantly larger than star destroyers.

Has anyone ever determined the number of Mon Cal star cruisers that were actually at the Battle of Endor? How many were destroyed by the Death Star and how many survived? By the time Lando advised Ackbar to engage the Imperial fleet, I'm surprised that there were any Mon Cals left.

Is it possible that there was a second wave?

Anyway, as for the "dark time" of The Empire Strikes Back, that presumably mostly refers to the group at Hoth, who are continually on the run as a result of being associated with the Death Star's destruction. The rest of the Alliance is mostly flying under the radar as much as possible, until Endor forces them to commit to a major conventional operation. The fact that the Empire had to sortie major fleet elements is actually a win for the Rebel Alliance as it shows the political weakness of the Empire. While it was bad for the heroes, Hoth and its aftermath was actually a victory for the Rebel Alliance, in which they avoided destruction and thus allowed the movement to gain momentum.

That's pretty much how I envisioned it as well. Well said.

Damn, Adam, I should just retire and let you post all my thoughts for me.

[Rogue 9]

One solution is that the main Mon Cal fleet refused to give proper support until after Yavin, with Admiral Raddus as an extremist willing to committ early, which also fits his brash action to attack Scarif against orders. Notably his vessel also appears much weaker than the ships used at Endor, several of which are significantly larger than star destroyers.

Has anyone ever determined the number of Mon Cal star cruisers that were actually at the Battle of Endor? How many were destroyed by the Death Star and how many survived? By the time Lando advised Ackbar to engage the Imperial fleet, I'm surprised that there were any Mon Cals left.

Is it possible that there was a second wave?

We see two destroyed by the Death Star, and don't see any others destroyed once they engage the Imperial fleet. Of course, the space battle loses time while the movie focuses on the ground and the Emperor's throne room.

By my count we see three distinct cruisers in the opening sequence before they jump to hyperspace; the fighters fly between two of them and there's one briefly visible to the port stern of Home One after the camera angle changes that can't be the second one because it was to starboard. The third one may or may not be wing-type; where the "wings" would be is mostly obscured by the Nebulon B in the foreground. When the fleet emerges from hyperspace we see two, one wing-type and one not, though the camera cuts back to the Falcon's cockpit quickly enough that we may not see all of the fleet emerge (in fact we almost certainly don't, since we'd be short at least one cruiser and several lighter ships at this point). After the order to pull up, we see at least four cruisers; one winged, three not, and a couple of distant ships that may or may not also be cruisers far back in the formation. At "fighters coming in," we see three in the background behind the Falcon, none of them wing-type. After the jump, Wedge and Green Leader chase TIEs across at least three cruisers in quick succession, one of which almost has to be Home One, the second a wing-type, and a third that isn't (unless they pulled a U-turn that isn't apparent and wound up back at Home One). In the medical frigate sequence we see two, one up-relative to the frigate and one to its starboard.

Then things get interesting. The Death Star destroys two cruisers, first a wing-type and then a wingless one. There may or may not have been more destroyed between since the movie cuts down to the surface for several minutes, but I lean towards there not being. Then the Rebel fleet goes to point blank range. In the first shot after Lando says they might just take a few of them with them, we see two, one wing-type, one not (meaning there were two wing-types present at minimum, since one was already destroyed). We see one in the background in the next shot where X-wings are strafing a Star Destroyer's bridge tower that's probably Home One, since it appears to be much larger than the Star Destroyer that's in focus. Right after that the shot goes back to the Falcon's cockpit and we see a wing-type.

Then most of the fighters break off to attack the Death Star. Once the space battle shifts back outside, we see two cruisers out the window of Home One when Ackbar orders concentration of fire on the Executor (one mostly obscured by his head, but the nose section we see is large enough that it can't be anything else). Then we see at least three, possibly as many as five (two indistinct ships that may be distant Mon Cals or closer transports) out of the bridge of the Executor right before it crashes, followed immediately by one to the starboard of the bridge (which can't possibly be any of the ones we see to the bridge's front), followed soon thereafter by another to its stern (and another to starboard that might be the same one from the previous shot, but it's positioning seems off for that). Home One's view of the dreadnought as it heels over into the Death Star establishes that it was one of the ships to its fore. And finally, from engine pattern I believe we see six, none of them wing-type, in the background as the Falcon escapes the Death Star, but either the scaling in that shot is way off or the corvettes, transports, and frigates are much closer to the Death Star.

Here's a cut of the space battle if you want to double check me.

[ray245]

Or maybe some systems revolted and are currently being put down by other Imperial forces. Not that it matters. Between the battles of Scarif and Yavin, the Rebels' long-range fighter force has been almost wiped out and they were forced to flee for their lives at least twice. So both victories came at a terrible cost -one that can't be made up for right away, no matter how many systems revolt. Luckily for the Rebels, by the time they attack Endor, they have not only recovered their losses, they've acquired ships that can slug it out with the biggest and baddest ships the Empire can muster. That's pretty amazing for a force reduced to three fighters after Yavin.

Yeah. I had always assumed that the Mon-Cal ships we see in Return of the Jedi were the result of a general wave of support for the Rebellion that happened post-ANH, but Rogue One shows us that the Rebels had them even before Yavin. Regardless, the battle of Yavin didn't reduce the entire Rebel fleet to just 3 fighters... there were no Rebel capital ships at that battle, so clearly they were elsewhere.

One solution is that the main Mon Cal fleet refused to give proper support until after Yavin, with Admiral Raddus as an extremist willing to committ early, which also fits his brash action to attack Scarif against orders. Notably his vessel also appears much weaker than the ships used at Endor, several of which are significantly larger than star destroyers.

Anyway, as for the "dark time" of The Empire Strikes Back, that presumably mostly refers to the group at Hoth, who are continually on the run as a result of being associated with the Death Star's destruction. The rest of the Alliance is mostly flying under the radar as much as possible, until Endor forces them to commit to a major conventional operation. The fact that the Empire had to sortie major fleet elements is actually a win for the Rebel Alliance as it shows the political weakness of the Empire. While it was bad for the heroes, Hoth and its aftermath was actually a victory for the Rebel Alliance, in which they avoided destruction and thus allowed the movement to gain momentum.

It's already answered in the visual dictionary. The Mon Cals have yet to finish refurbishing all their ships into warships. The ship we saw in Rogue One was the first ship to be fully upgraded.

[Shroom Man 777]

I rewatched it. I love it even more.

[Elfdart]

One solution is that the main Mon Cal fleet refused to give proper support until after Yavin, with Admiral Raddus as an extremist willing to committ early, which also fits his brash action to attack Scarif against orders. Notably his vessel also appears much weaker than the ships used at Endor, several of which are significantly larger than star destroyers.

Has anyone ever determined the number of Mon Cal star cruisers that were actually at the Battle of Endor? How many were destroyed by the Death Star and how many survived? By the time Lando advised Ackbar to engage the Imperial fleet, I'm surprised that there were any Mon Cals left.

Is it possible that there was a second wave?

This is the best wide shot I could find:



I count seven, possibly eight cruisers -most of them the same kind of giant warship as Home One. Each of the "Home One" class is 3-5 times the size of an ISD so maybe the odds at Endor weren't quite so lopsided, especially when the command ship wallowed into oblivion.

[Rogue 9]

One solution is that the main Mon Cal fleet refused to give proper support until after Yavin, with Admiral Raddus as an extremist willing to committ early, which also fits his brash action to attack Scarif against orders. Notably his vessel also appears much weaker than the ships used at Endor, several of which are significantly larger than star destroyers.

Has anyone ever determined the number of Mon Cal star cruisers that were actually at the Battle of Endor? How many were destroyed by the Death Star and how many survived? By the time Lando advised Ackbar to engage the Imperial fleet, I'm surprised that there were any Mon Cals left.

Is it possible that there was a second wave?

This is the best wide shot I could find:



I count seven, possibly eight cruisers -most of them the same kind of giant warship as Home One. Each of the "Home One" class is 3-5 times the size of an ISD so maybe the odds at Endor weren't quite so lopsided, especially when the command ship wallowed into oblivion.

Recalling that right after that shot the camera angle switches to the port side of the Executor looking starboard and we see another one that can't possibly be any of those, and then the angle changes again to look at the bridge and back over the stern of the vessel and we see another that can't possibly be any of the previous and another that may or may not be the one to starboard in the previous shot. So somewhere between eleven and thirteen showed up minimum, accounting for the two destroyed by the Death Star before this point; possibly between twelve and fourteen since none of those look to be wing-type and we know from earlier in the battle that at least one wing-type escaped the Death Star and made it into the knife-fight with the Star Destroyers.

[Lord Revan]

I thought there was 3 style of Mon-Cals at Endor, the winged "Liberty" style ones, the wing-less that looked like home-one but with a liberty style rear and the Home-One that was unique.

[Captain Seafort]

This is the best wide shot I could find:



I count seven, possibly eight cruisers -most of them the same kind of giant warship as Home One. Each of the "Home One" class is 3-5 times the size of an ISD so maybe the odds at Endor weren't quite so lopsided, especially when the command ship wallowed into oblivion.

I count a couple of possible extras in that image - one vertically below your added "3" and another just to the right of that, just to the right of the ISD.

[Sea Skimmer]

Some of those ships were just the small Hoth transports though. Given that Rouge One indicates ramming will allow a corvette to physically smash a star destroyers hul at low velocity...something I'm not too happy about, it'd almost be insane not to use mass ramships in a fleet action. Might have been the reason to take transports which are not otherwise known to be armed into battle. This means the Space Taliban would be 10,000% effective.

Also it'd go a long way towards explaining why a 19km long battleship was so useless, closing the range should have only favored the damn thing since its arcs of fire forward are so restricted. If it ate several ramships early in the action that might be that.

[Shroom Man 777]

Those small Hoth transports are more obviously oblong in shape, a different silhouette than those Mon Cals or suspected Mon Cals. I propose that aside from ramship duties, those Hoth transports used their internal space for either ECM, ECCM and sensor duties - ala modified Boeings turned into Poseidons and Looking Glasses and such - or missile trucks! Or makeshift starfighter-carriers!

I really did laugh when I noticed a whole buncha them - unarmed transports! - hauling ass to the huge battle of Scarif!

Also I noted that the Scarif garrison ISDs DID open fire... but their turbolaser fire was more noticeable in the later parts, before they got murdered. What a beautiful demise though!

[Knife]

Depends on what you want to call cruisers I suppose. There is the Home One type 'cruiser' but you could say the Liberty type and the wingless Liberty type are 'destroyers' on par with ISD's. Anyway, yeah, at least 4 large Home One types with around a dozen or so 'destroyer' types in the Battle of Endor.

I'm a little sad that in Rogue One there are no old school Mon Cal ships and instead we get a new one while they kept Corellian corvettes and Neb B frigates. The Mon Cal ships never got a good shake in the old EU, as far as I'm concerned. The whole 'each one is different' crap and every other book and comic making a new one. Meh.

[The Romulan Republic]

Depends on what you want to call cruisers I suppose. There is the Home One type 'cruiser' but you could say the Liberty type and the wingless Liberty type are 'destroyers' on par with ISD's. Anyway, yeah, at least 4 large Home One types with around a dozen or so 'destroyer' types in the Battle of Endor.

This, of course, presumes that it is accurate to apply the real-world naval designation of destroyer to an ISD, and for that matter that their is any point to applying real-world maritime naval designations to Star Wars vessels at all, both points that I have considerable doubt over.

I mean, we see ISDs or similar vessels function in roles (vaguely) approximating those of destroyer, cruiser, or even battleship depending on the source and circumstances, and their's nothing to really pin them to a "destroyer" designation specifically other than the name, which could have an entirely different meaning in a fictional universe (especially when the term "star destroyer" is used for vessels ranging from substantially smaller than an ISD up to dreadnoughts orders of magnitude larger).

For that matter, "star destroyer" is a term which seems to only ever be used to refer to a specific style of wedge-shaped Republic/Imperial warship, and I don't recall the term "destroyer" ever being used otherwise in canon (correct me if I'm wrong). The usual scale seems to go roughly: Corvette, Frigate, Cruiser, Battleship, Dreadnought.

And for what its worth, The Clone Wars specifically refers to the smaller Venator class as cruisers. Possibly different systems under the Republic and the more militarized Empire, but its hard to see classifications changing so radically that a vessel larger and more powerful than a cruiser becomes a destroyer in just a few years, especially in a setting that's so often technologically stagnant.

Personally, I'm somewhat inclined to regard the label "Star Destroyer" as an example of Imperial dick-waving much like the name "Death Star" or "Starkiller", rather than designating said vessels as equivalent to naval destroyers.

[Lord Revan]

In Rogue One's defense the Hammerhead didn't ram the ISD until after it was disabled and when the Devastator showed up later in the fight at least 2 rebel ships crashed into it with minimal damage.

[Galvatron]

For that matter, "star destroyer" is a term which seems to only ever be used to refer to a specific style of wedge-shaped Republic/Imperial warship, and I don't recall the term "destroyer" ever being used otherwise in canon (correct me if I'm wrong).

Jyn called the ISD over Jedha a destroyer. I believe her line was "what's that destroyer doing there?"

[Shroom Man 777]

More like at that point colloquial lingo and not specific Jaynes Defense Weekly-grade technical designations.

[Shroom Man 777]

I guess it would be realistic to lack galactic standardization if something that would be cruiser-grade by Kuati standards would be preposterously ginormous by shitworld standards. Some Twi'lek cruiser might be a bathtub by Correlian standards. Etc.

[Lord Revan]

I guess it would be realistic to lack galactic standardization if something that would be cruiser-grade by Kuati standards would be preposterously ginormous by shitworld standards. Some Twi'lek cruiser might be a bathtub by Correlian standards. Etc.

I would make sense at least in the Republic era, sure it's wasn't 100% peace and love during millenia before AOTC but there was no major galaxy wide conflicts that we know of during that era so any Republic wide standards if they even existed would be 1000 years out-of-date and probably ignored.