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Then again is it certain that the Dreadnought could insta-kill the Raddus? I mean, the Raddus went on for forever against the Supremacy's guns...

And considering how fuckoff huge the Supremacy was, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to not install heavy guns on it.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2017-12-25 09:59pm Then again is it certain that the Dreadnought could insta-kill the Raddus? I mean, the Raddus went on for forever against the Supremacy's guns...

Were the Supremacy's guns as big as the fleet killer' lower guns?

From what I've read, the Supremacy's armaments didn't include the "deadly orbital bombardment cannons that can penetrate planetary shields" that the Fulminatrix had.

Okay then. Without Poe's insubordination, the Resistance fleet is destroyed, before they even leave orbit of the planet.

Since it's only other armaments are point-defense lasers, I have a feeling that the Mandator IV's power output is devoted primarily to those big guns. Given their wanktastic ability to penetrate planetary shields, it's even possible that they require so much power that the ship has none to spare for shields of its own.

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-25 11:49pm Since it's only other armaments are point-defense lasers, I have a feeling that the Mandator IV's power output is devoted primarily to those big guns. Given their wanktastic ability to penetrate planetary shields, it's even possible that they require so much power that the ship has none to spare for shields of its own.

Wookieepedia lists it as having deflector shields. If it didn't, though, the scene would be even worse; the Raddus could have simply begun picking it apart with turbolasers.

Okay, I wasn't sure. Dialogue during Poe's attack run stated that the ship was armored, but I didn't recall any mention of shielding. I thought maybe all of its power was channeled into its big guns.

The Fulminatrix and its role in the fleet actually seemed quite reminiscent of this Zentradi ship from Macross:

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/gundestroyer.htm

I liked the jedi side of this movie a fair bit, and the first order-resistance part is yet even worse then the total lack of effort that was The Force Awakens

Knife wrote: 2017-12-25 04:18pm Why are there no safer systems? This movie is immediately after TFA, after the FO nuked the Republics capital and main fleet. No where in the fucking galaxy was there either a Republic system or Republic friendly system that would look friendly towards the lone cruiser and have some ass big enough to deter that fleet after them?

Because if so, that's a huge plot hole.

The entire existence of the first order is a giant plot hole. Maybe 100 years after ROTJ this would sorta fit, when all the living witnesses the the crap the Empire pulled are dead in human terms, whom tend to dominate the galaxy. But a couple decade later....everyone would be militarized as all hell and random blatantly evil morons wouldn't be the ones dominating. A group like the Trade Federation would fit way better, with the first order folk as more like oh say, space islamic state terrorists. But then they'd have to be also not mindbogglingly dumb. That's really...they lol dumb in the force awakens but this took it to a new level of incompetence. Makes loosing to Ewoks look reasonable; and hell at least on Endor the Imperials fought back. They just lost. The Last Jedi basically has the first order give up fighting over and over with the resistance still in sight.

What does one expect from a bunch of neofascists ruled by Darth Emo and Emperor Gollum? The First Order being competent would’ve made the story end right there and then.

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 10:39pm Okay then. Without Poe's insubordination, the Resistance fleet is destroyed, before they even leave orbit of the planet.

Leia was confident that the Resistance fleet could hyperspace out well before the dreadnought fired upon them. Given how damn long that "bombing run" took, they could've made two or three jumps in that time.

I'm not even that mad about the silly design of the bombers any more. They could be adapted from space-capable planetary bombers. Would've been nice, though, to see them use actual physics in the bombing run instead of the lame and suicidal head-on attack. A much better approach would've been to go into a circular trajectory, releasing the bombs where the tangential vector lined up with the target.

But I guess that wouldn't be almost literally B-17s in space.

K. A. Pital wrote: 2017-12-26 02:42am What does one expect from a bunch of neofascists ruled by Darth Emo and Emperor Gollum? The First Order being competent would’ve made the story end right there and then.

It's not just that they're incompetent. It's that they're so incompetent, the Resistance nearly getting wiped out by them is demonstrative of at least equal incompetence on the Resistance's part.

The Resistance is obviously incompetent. The whole Poe story is revealing massive issues in their chain of command.

They’re like a Makhnovite anarchist group, but with worse subordination. Everything is centered around a warlord (Leia, who carries the thing through personal connections and a personality cult), and as it is, the Resistance is a pale shadow of the rebel alliance, kind of like FO is just a shadow of the Empire.

Problem is, both TFA and TLJ wants the viewer to believe that organizations this incompetent are the deciding factor in the fate of the galaxy at large.

They can't even fight each other properly. How the hell was the First Order able to first build a superweapon of unprecedented scale and then dominate the galaxy when their fleet strength after TFA was comparable to any single core system's defense fleet?

If the movies were following a splinter group of the remains of the Empire trying to stamp out a rebel cell, against the backdrop of a wider civil/cold war between the New Republic and Imperial Remnant, this would all seem more in place. Would be more interesting too, I think, especially if it developed into a turning point where a small conflict at the edge of a stalemate has the potential to ripple out into the wider scheme and affect the outcome of it.

Instead it's like the rest of the galaxy is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and placing bets on who wins.

Frankly it feels like this whole thing is just a farce, that really some corrupt bureaucrats on Coruscant are congratulating themselves on how easy it was to pit fascist terrorists against inexperienced hopefuls and use the ensuing disruption to seize power.

K. A. Pital wrote: 2017-12-26 02:42am What does one expect from a bunch of neofascists ruled by Darth Emo and Emperor Gollum? The First Order being competent would’ve made the story end right there and then.

Well yes. When presented with a charming tableau of transports streaming towards an evacuation vessel Hux does not order his fighters to intercept and destroy the transports whilst his capital ships close with the evac ships whilst they are waiting to recover transports and easy to overhaul. Instead he orders his whole fleet to stop and watch whilst they fire a really big gun at a base they absolutely know the enemy has already moved loads of their stuff out of becuase they're watching it happen.

He then delays the operation to lose a battle of wits with Poe Dameron, of all sentient creatures. He clearly has the tactical skill and imagination of a particularly dull rock, and the First Order would probably be doing better if they stuck a set of command bars on a Porg.

Trouble is, both sides in Star Wars have always been this stupid. The Rebel Alliance always tried to fight a conventional war against the Empire despite clearly lacking the materiel to do so, overrelied on HUMINT resources, planned operations terribly (no serious anti-armour defenses at Hoth, for instance, and the snowspeeders attacked the AT-ATs from the one direction the latter could actually shoot at them ever), and the Empire always had a stratitfied, risk averse command structure that promoted ideological affinity over initiative (because Darth Vader throttled the latter).

I got to see the Last Jedi this weekend. It was not as bad as I feared. It was... OK and at least better than TFA imo.
In other words, good to see once but for I rather see Rogue One for the third time to get a Star Wars entertainment fix.

APlayerHater wrote: 2017-12-24 12:04pm Next time we see her pick up a lightsaber, she beats Luke in a stick-fighting duel. Then the next time she picks up a lightsaber she takes on 10 master swordsmen. To my knowledge jedi train for decades to master swordsmanship, but screw it; let's just dumb everything down for plot convenience. You could say Luke never trained with a lightsaber, but he also lost his 1 fight in TESB, had his hand chopped off, and Vader wasn't even trying to kill him.

Rey didn't beat Luke, Luke beat Rey by disarming her. Then she grabbed the lightsaber which (obviously) caused him to give up.

Galvatron wrote: 2017-12-25 07:43pm Well, I'm still hazy on how the whole hyperspace tracking thing works so you may be right. Did the Supremacy have to be nearby when the Resistance fleet jumped in order to track them?

Actually the Supremacy wasn't present when the Raddus left. Meaning that another ship initiated the tracking and then transferred it to her. It is stated that another ship could immediately resume the tracking if it was lost somehow though, so it's a common ability. Presumably 'target locks' can be transferred between ships too.

Of course it does put a dent in the 'turn it off plan'. Leaving aside the absurd 'we'll just zip onto the Supremacy' bit and the sheer task of navigating your way around an area that large and Finn knowing exactly where it was (though he didn't know it existed until a moment ago) what if the tracking hadn't been moved? Or had been maintained from both ships? I guess the entire plot line amounted to nothing anyway so it doesn't matter.

According to Wookieepedia, the hyperspace tracker works by just being a really fucking fast computer and calculating every possible destination along the fleeing ship's trajectory and then somehow triangulating the right one, even though if you're attempting to evade you can drop out of hyperspace anywhere along that line you damn well please.

Imperial528 wrote: 2017-12-26 02:58am

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 10:39pm Okay then. Without Poe's insubordination, the Resistance fleet is destroyed, before they even leave orbit of the planet.

Leia was confident that the Resistance fleet could hyperspace out well before the dreadnought fired upon them. Given how damn long that "bombing run" took, they could've made two or three jumps in that time.

I'm not even that mad about the silly design of the bombers any more. They could be adapted from space-capable planetary bombers. Would've been nice, though, to see them use actual physics in the bombing run instead of the lame and suicidal head-on attack. A much better approach would've been to go into a circular trajectory, releasing the bombs where the tangential vector lined up with the target.

But I guess that wouldn't be almost literally B-17s in space.

It was dumb. Huge galactic conflict 30 years ago with fighters and bombers. 20 years from that, another huge war with fighters and bombers. How the resistance forgot to get some of that and instead huge space slugs with an actual drop bay is mind boggling. I get it, new toys. But that was the dumbest bomber ever. The transports just lobbing bombs out the airlock would have been better.

Rogue 9 wrote: 2017-12-26 08:04pm According to Wookieepedia, the hyperspace tracker works by just being a really fucking fast computer and calculating every possible destination along the fleeing ship's trajectory and then somehow triangulating the right one, even though if you're attempting to evade you can drop out of hyperspace anywhere along that line you damn well please.

You know this already, but I'd like to just observe that that's some bullshit.

Esquire wrote: 2017-12-26 08:25pm

Rogue 9 wrote: 2017-12-26 08:04pm According to Wookieepedia, the hyperspace tracker works by just being a really fucking fast computer and calculating every possible destination along the fleeing ship's trajectory and then somehow triangulating the right one, even though if you're attempting to evade you can drop out of hyperspace anywhere along that line you damn well please.

You know this already, but I'd like to just observe that that's some bullshit.

I know, right?

Ender wrote: 2017-12-21 10:09pm I actually like that they have made Kylo and the Space Nazis such unfuckable rage babies. With Kylo it is an elegant solution to a thorny problem - if your villain is going to be compared to Vader and nearly certainly fall short,why not make them a wanna he who falls short? And anything that points out the infantile absurdity of Nazi wannabes plays to me as the target audience. I live in the state that is patient zero for those fucks, anything that makes it clear they are pathetic failures grabbing at symbols they think the are entitled to and fucking it up meets with my approval

I see where you're coming from, but these clownshoe villains aren't portrayed as totally inept man-children, they're shown WTFPWNing the good guys. This is a double-whammy because the few remaining heroes of the Rebellion are now portrayed as the ultimate fumbledicks. It's hard to root for "heroes" who are severely retarded.

And notably Rogue One is the worst film - everyone loves the third act, and in particular the closing 5 minutes, but the first two acts are a mess - and that's being charitable. You could have dropped them entirely and I don't think most folks would have cared.

I consider it the least bad film, on the grounds that the premise was to "fix" a plot hole in ANH (even though there wasn't one) by opening a gaping hole in the plot. Namely, the Empire is not just trying to recover the Death Star plans, but to find and destroy the secret base where the Rebels launch their long-range fighters/attack ships from. In Rogue One, everyone and their grandmother from every faction shows up at the HQ on Yavin like it's Oscar Night.

Knife wrote: 2017-12-25 04:18pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:23pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:21pm

We also know that they could have jumped immediately straight to a safer system instead of traveling for at least a day receiving potshots from the enemy until they're on vapors.

They know they've been tracked through Hyperspace, there are no safer systems. They can jump once more and then they're caught immediately with no fuel to prolong the chase.

You're starting to make Poe look clever now.

Why are there no safer systems? This movie is immediately after TFA, after the FO nuked the Republics capital and main fleet. No where in the fucking galaxy was there either a Republic system or Republic friendly system that would look friendly towards the lone cruiser and have some ass big enough to deter that fleet after them?

Because if so, that's a huge plot hole.

To call this a plot hole is a disservice to mere plot holes. This is no plot at all. I doubt Abrams, Johnson and Kasdan spent any more time coming up with the "plot" of this movie than it takes one of us to post on this site.

APlayerHater wrote: 2017-12-25 04:55pm Also I guess Kylie blew up ALL the fighters in their docking bay but dozens of transports were left untouched.

Otherwise you could just send Poe in 1 xwing to shoot all the guns off the first order ships.

I stopped mid-laugh after reading this because it's not half as retarded as what's on screen.

Imperial528 wrote: 2017-12-26 04:19am Problem is, both TFA and TLJ wants the viewer to believe that organizations this incompetent are the deciding factor in the fate of the galaxy at large.

They can't even fight each other properly. How the hell was the First Order able to first build a superweapon of unprecedented scale and then dominate the galaxy when their fleet strength after TFA was comparable to any single core system's defense fleet?

If the movies were following a splinter group of the remains of the Empire trying to stamp out a rebel cell, against the backdrop of a wider civil/cold war between the New Republic and Imperial Remnant, this would all seem more in place. Would be more interesting too, I think, especially if it developed into a turning point where a small conflict at the edge of a stalemate has the potential to ripple out into the wider scheme and affect the outcome of it.

Instead it's like the rest of the galaxy is just sitting around twiddling their thumbs and placing bets on who wins.

Frankly it feels like this whole thing is just a farce, that really some corrupt bureaucrats on Coruscant are congratulating themselves on how easy it was to pit fascist terrorists against inexperienced hopefuls and use the ensuing disruption to seize power.

I'd have liked to see that movie. But Disney/Abrams & Co were never capable of making such a movie. They had to wipe out the Republic and all its allies because all they know how to do is ape the OT, only with shitty contemporary movie cliches (slow motion, flashbacks) slopped on for good measure.

Sea Skimmer wrote: 2017-12-26 02:09am I liked the jedi side of this movie a fair bit, and the first order-resistance part is yet even worse then the total lack of effort that was The Force Awakens

Knife wrote: 2017-12-25 04:18pm Why are there no safer systems? This movie is immediately after TFA, after the FO nuked the Republics capital and main fleet. No where in the fucking galaxy was there either a Republic system or Republic friendly system that would look friendly towards the lone cruiser and have some ass big enough to deter that fleet after them?

Because if so, that's a huge plot hole.

The entire existence of the first order is a giant plot hole. Maybe 100 years after ROTJ this would sorta fit, when all the living witnesses the the crap the Empire pulled are dead in human terms, whom tend to dominate the galaxy. But a couple decade later....everyone would be militarized as all hell and random blatantly evil morons wouldn't be the ones dominating. A group like the Trade Federation would fit way better, with the first order folk as more like oh say, space islamic state terrorists. But then they'd have to be also not mindbogglingly dumb. That's really...they lol dumb in the force awakens but this took it to a new level of incompetence. Makes loosing to Ewoks look reasonable; and hell at least on Endor the Imperials fought back. They just lost. The Last Jedi basically has the first order give up fighting over and over with the resistance still in sight.

Exactly. It's like a teen slasher movie where the only reason the killer is a threat is because the teenagers are too stupid to survive.

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:31pm

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:26pm

Imperial528 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:16pm Two things bugging me since seeing it.

Why didn't any of the First Order Star Destroyers just jump ahead of the cruiser in system? Their hyperdrive is accurate enough to come out right on top of the cruiser, should be able to manage a tactical jump for a pincer maneuver.

Why didn't they swarm the cruiser with fighters once its escort ships were destroyed? Their hangars were well stocked and they'd taken out the Resistance's fighter wings.

There's just so many flaws with each side's course of action here, and no good explanations for why.

Hux is also an idiot. Even Snoke thinks he's an idiot. Snoke keeps him in his position because he's an idiot with the right ideology (a common failure mode of totalitarian states, ideology often trumps competence). The First Order's command structure is paralysed by overcentralisation led by someone who is explicitly not good at his job. Also they know the Resistance can't escape because they're able to track wherever they go and will run out of fuel, they're not in a hurry.

Then the Resistance needs to make one target into many. Scatter and divide the First Order forces. Enough decoys and the Resistance can regroup later when they're not dealing with a fuel crisis. Anything is better than a slow, morale killing, assured death as you watch your friends die on the other ships and know that the same will happen to you, and your leader won't call for help, and just have hope.

Vendetta wrote: 2017-12-25 03:28pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:24pm

They can track the main ship, not the support vessels.

EDIT: She also wasted at least a day not calling for help, when she could have.

The Resistance don't know that. They don't know how they're being tracked, but they know they are. If the First Order has managed to plant homing devices on them (the normal way of tracking a ship through hyperspace) they could easily be tracking all three ships and the support ships would be easy prey if a Star Destroyer broke off to follow them.

Again, scatter. Give the enemy various directions to go, and meet elsewhere once there ships have been checked. They were already easy prey as is, and weren't even calling for help as they ran. Poe did, but Holdo is too good a commander to call for help, apparently.

Neu BSG dealt with this scenario in "33" I think it was. Adm. Adama did just what you described to shake the cylons.

JI_Joe84 wrote: 2017-12-26 11:04pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:31pm Again, scatter. Give the enemy various directions to go, and meet elsewhere once there ships have been checked. They were already easy prey as is, and weren't even calling for help as they ran. Poe did, but Holdo is too good a commander to call for help, apparently.

Neu BSG dealt with this scenario in "33" I think it was. Adm. Adama did just what you described to shake the cylons.

You did remember about the FUEL ISSUE, didn't you? None of them had the fuel for more jumps, and the First Order had more ships.

LadyTevar wrote: 2017-12-27 12:39am

JI_Joe84 wrote: 2017-12-26 11:04pm

FaxModem1 wrote: 2017-12-25 03:31pm Again, scatter. Give the enemy various directions to go, and meet elsewhere once there ships have been checked. They were already easy prey as is, and weren't even calling for help as they ran. Poe did, but Holdo is too good a commander to call for help, apparently.

Neu BSG dealt with this scenario in "33" I think it was. Adm. Adama did just what you described to shake the cylons.

You did remember about the FUEL ISSUE, didn't you? None of them had the fuel for more jumps, and the First Order had more ships.

Which is just more of the blatant incompetence required to keep the poor excuse for a plot this movie has lurching forward. Who the hell keeps their warships sitting around running on fumes?