NFL 08 Thread

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2007-11-06 09:28am

Did anyone else watch Minnesota run all over and through San Diego?

I know Adrian Peterson is good but Chester Taylor wasn't doing all that poorly against the Chargers either.

I'd forgotten how much fun it is to watch a team really dominate with a running game.

Revan's Fire · Post by **Revan's Fire** » 2007-11-06 12:54pm

Now, will anyone address the fact that the Steelers are for real? Don't get me wrong, we're number 3 at the very best, (and I've bled black and gold all my life) but I'm only just now seeing anyone give us credit for being one of the elite teams in the NFL.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2007-11-06 07:04pm

I thought the Steelers were getting some credit earlier in the year about being one of the better teams. At least until they lost to Arizona. That probably should have been seen more as a fluke of special circumstance then it likely was.

I'd like to see the Steelers play the Cowboys or Packers right about now to see if they can make a statement about being the real number 3. Okay, actually I'd like to see them stomp on the Cowboys and wouldn't mind someone to finally show that a team (the Packers) can't expect to win against good teams without a running game.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2007-11-06 08:48pm

Tsyroc wrote:Did anyone else watch Minnesota run all over and through San Diego?

I know Adrian Peterson is good but Chester Taylor wasn't doing all that poorly against the Chargers either.

I'd forgotten how much fun it is to watch a team really dominate with a running game.

That hurt more than the Patriots asswhipping. (itself an ass whoopin' that was a long time comin') We've not been the same without Randall Godfrey and Donnie Edwards in middle linebacker, that much is clear on defense, but moreover our left end... I forget his name, but our starter got hurt so that helped none.

Anyway, I'd say there's hope for the future yet cause Antonio Cromartie's having a very impressive run on playmaking on defense and special teams. He and Gates are probably the only 2 deserving pro bowlers for San Diego this year. (maybe our punter but I don't know how he stacks up against others, I just know he's consistently a deep-booter when I see game's televised which isn't every week granted, stationed in rural Kansas buttfuckistan)

edit: did anyone else notice every team in the AFC West this week basically got curbstomped? I find this hilarious, of course.

The division just made no relative change in rankings after that awful set of games. edit2: it appears MoO & Elfdart did

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-11-07 04:35pm

SPC Brungardt wrote: edit2: it appears MoO & Elfdart did

After hearing A.J. Smith's interview, I'm starting to think that Mike Nolan might end up as defensive coordinator in San Diego, rather than Turner going back up to the Bay. Besides, the owner will not fire a coach with two or more years left on his contract.

I thought the 49ers would make a run at the playoffs this year, but aside from their defense, they really suck. Getting rid of Antonio Bryant was fucked up, so now they have the same problems on offense the Chargers do, only with maybe a quarter the offensive talent. I'd like to see Nolan coaching up some seriously underachieving defenders. I guess whichever team goes in the tank worst will benefit most next year.

Dark Flame · Post by **Dark Flame** » 2007-11-07 06:46pm

I'm really debating whether to start Derek Anderson vs. Steelers or Eli Manning vs. Cowboys on my fantasy team this week...

I wasn't able to watch the game, but the Browns won their 3rd straight, which is an impressive feat that they hadn't accomplished since 2001. They also beat a team that went into the game with a winning record, so hopefully we can beat some other winning teams.

Did anyone else hear about Shula's bitching and saying that if the Pats go undefeated they should have an asterisk along with their record? Oh no, someone might equal the 1972 Dolphins' record, we can't have that!!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2007-11-07 07:35pm

Elfdart wrote:I thought the 49ers would make a run at the playoffs this year, but aside from their defense, they really suck. Getting rid of Antonio Bryant was fucked up, so now they have the same problems on offense the Chargers do, only with maybe a quarter the offensive talent. I'd like to see Nolan coaching up some seriously underachieving defenders. I guess whichever team goes in the tank worst will benefit most next year.

The Niners have a lack of offensive talent in one position: Quarterback. Frank Gore is as good as advertised, and so is Vernon Davis. Their WR's are okay--not great, but not bad. Their offensive line is solid if unspectacular. Only Alex Smith is awful. He's keeping us from being a playoff contender. He has NO talent, whatsoever, and he also plays dumb. He has TERRIBLE arm strength, overrated mobility (he's good but not great outside the pocket and terrible inside it), makes poor decisions and has nothing in the way of accuracy. We need to get rid of him immediately.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-11-07 10:31pm

Dark Flame wrote:I'm really debating whether to start Derek Anderson vs. Steelers or Eli Manning vs. Cowboys on my fantasy team this week...

I wouldn't start any QB against the Steelers. if their defense doesn't shut you down, their offense will keep your QB off the field.

I wasn't able to watch the game, but the Browns won their 3rd straight, which is an impressive feat that they hadn't accomplished since 2001. They also beat a team that went into the game with a winning record, so hopefully we can beat some other winning teams.

I think they're a playoff calibre team, as a wild card.

Did anyone else hear about Shula's bitching and saying that if the Pats go undefeated they should have an asterisk along with their record? Oh no, someone might equal the 1972 Dolphins' record, we can't have that!!

Chickenshit like that makes me want the Patriots to win it all, just to make those has-been wankers go the fuck away. I'm tired of ex-Dolphins circling like vultures and gloating every time a team loses a game. If any team deserves a * by their records it's the 72 Dolphins with that weenie schedule they played. Fuck Don Shula, Larry Czonka and those other Miami bitches!

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-11-07 10:37pm

Master of Ossus wrote: The Niners have a lack of offensive talent in one position: Quarterback. Frank Gore is as good as advertised, and so is Vernon Davis. Their WR's are okay--not great, but not bad. Their offensive line is solid if unspectacular. Only Alex Smith is awful. He's keeping us from being a playoff contender. He has NO talent, whatsoever, and he also plays dumb. He has TERRIBLE arm strength, overrated mobility (he's good but not great outside the pocket and terrible inside it), makes poor decisions and has nothing in the way of accuracy. We need to get rid of him immediately.

What happened to him? Aside from their game against the Giants (they could have had Joe Montana under center and it wouldn't have mattered) I haven't seen him play since last season, when he seemed to be progressing nicely. Was Norv THAT much of a crutch for him?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2007-11-07 10:40pm

Elfdart wrote:What happened to him? Aside from their game against the Giants (they could have had Joe Montana under center and it wouldn't have mattered) I haven't seen him play since last season, when he seemed to be progressing nicely. Was Norv THAT much of a crutch for him?

Turner was huge, since he allowed Smith to run on easy passes. But I really think he's just a terrible QB. He has HORRIBLE arm strength (think of Pennington with a torn abductor muscle) and makes horrid decisions. His footwork, in particular, has regressed since last season. Keep in mind, also, that his "good season" was throwing as many TD's as interceptions, and this was with Frank Gore leading the League in rushing. I mean, go to nfl.com/videos and pick the Niners-ATL game there. The picks Smith throws about a minute into the video are... pretty shocking. I don't think I've seen worse throws in the NFL.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-11-08 12:34am

Timing can compensate for lack of arm strength. The fact that he played reasonably well last year (very well in the second half of the season) shows he can play at the pro level. It looks like he's going through some of the growing pains Philip Rivers is going through (sloppy footwork, what-the-fuck throws). His receivers were swapped out (Battle averages under 10 yards a catch? Jeez!) and his best targets are the TE and halfback, which can be shut down by a defense while still keeping a lid on the running game. I don't know if pulling the plug on him is a good idea. Given that his backup is even worse, I'd just try to stick it out and hope he gets on the same page as his receivers. Then see what's available next year.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2007-11-08 12:42am

Elfdart wrote:Timing can compensate for lack of arm strength. The fact that he played reasonably well last year (very well in the second half of the season) shows he can play at the pro level. It looks like he's going through some of the growing pains Philip Rivers is going through (sloppy footwork, what-the-fuck throws). His receivers were swapped out (Battle averages under 10 yards a catch? Jeez!) and his best targets are the TE and halfback, which can be shut down by a defense while still keeping a lid on the running game. I don't know if pulling the plug on him is a good idea. Given that his backup is even worse, I'd just try to stick it out and hope he gets on the same page as his receivers. Then see what's available next year.

I'm not suggesting we need to bench him now, but that we need to look for a replacement. Even in his good season, he wasn't that good--certainly playing at nowhere near the level of other young QB's in the League (Garrard, Schaub, Rivers, Campbell, Anderson, etc.), and his lack of arm strength means he has nowhere near the upside of those guys. Timing can help, admittedly, but a big reason his receivers are averaging so few yards per catch is that he is SO bad with respect to arm-strength. He CANNOT throw the twelve-yard out-pattern, and his accuracy at longer ranges is severely suspect. This limits his receivers to underneath routes and "pitch-and-catch" things. I would also contend that his timing isn't that good, either.

As for the criticism of the Niners' receivers, San Diego has similar issues--by far its biggest receiving threats are Gates (a TE) and LT (a RB). Yet Rivers plays at a much, much higher level than Alex Smith. I would have to rate Smith's receivers as being better than San Diego's (currently, the illustrious Vincent Jackson is the ONLY Chargers' receiver with ten or more catches OR 100 yards receiving). In contrast, Smith has three tested, if unspectacular, targets: Ashlie Lelie, Arnaz Battle, and Darrell Jackson. Of course, he ALSO has Frank Gore and Vernon Davis--two very capable players at TE and RB who are also outstanding pass-catchers.

Another measure of Alex Smith's ineptitude is the comparison with the much-maligned Joey Harrington, who currently plays with what is arguably the League's worst receivers (counting RB's and TE's as receivers). Harrington is currently completing a higher percentage of his passes, has a higher rating (by nearly 20 points), more yards-per-attempt, and twice as many TD's as Smith.

A final measure is this video. Those are WIDE OPEN receivers he's not giving a chance to make a play.

In short, the Niners need to cut their losses at the end of the season and find a long-term solution at QB. The issue is that we already invested so much in the guy and got absolutely nothing for it. We don't even have a young second- or third-stringer to develop, anymore, because York was so sold on Smith. I see no evidence that he is capable of playing at an NFL level.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-11-08 04:22pm

OK. There is nothing wrong with Smith's arm strength. His issue isn't even the separated shoulder that isn't healed yet. It is confidence. He lost it, along with the rest of the offense, when Turner left. While he is in his third year, he is also on his 3rd offensive coordinator. That is as much a problem as anything. Yeah yeah, it's the same system as last year. So why can't Frank Gore run the ball this year with Hostler calling the plays? It is the exact same offensive team as last year. No confidence.

The Niners have ZERO at the receiver position. You can't even try to compare them to Rivers and his receivers. Darrell Jackson came from the Seahawks, where he had a Pro Bowl QB that made him look WAY better then he actually was and he has the same problems in SF that he had in Seattle, which all the Seahawk receivers suffer from. Dropped passes. Lelie is a bona fide 1st round bust that couldn't even get a spot on the Falcons, who have had an under achieveing receiver corp of 1st rounders for a bout 4 years. Battle is the only quality receiver on the team, but he is pretty slow and draws the double coverage almost every play.

That leaves Gore and Davis. You really want to compare these two guys to Tomlinson and Gates? Really? Maybe in about 3 years, but not right now, no way.

Gore has been playing with injuries all season, and know has a lovely ankle sprain.

Vernon Davis, who is turning out to be pretty injury prone himself , has ass loads of talent, but the injuries are slowing him down and he hasn't been much of a down the field threat. Plus, at this point, he can still be covered by a fast safety or line backer.

The problem on this offense is not solely Alex Smith. It is stability. It is injuries. It is lack of depth. It is BAD offensive play calling, and I mean BAD.

Last year at about this time Smith was getting comfortable with Turner and starting to run the offense with confidence, and that was after playing in every game and without the separated THROWING shoulder.

This year is just about the worst thing that can happen to a 3rd year QB. New coordinator, injured tight end and running back, bad receivers. Ineffective O line.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2007-11-09 03:21am

havokeff wrote:This year is just about the worst thing that can happen to a 3rd year QB. New coordinator, injured tight end and running back, bad receivers. Ineffective O line.

Where was the ineffective offensive line against the Falcons? Oh, yeah, it pretty much controlled the Falcons. The allegedly poor Niners WR's still got open consistently against the Falcons' defense, but that didn't stop Smith from throwing picks and finding ways to turn the ball over. Seriously. Watch the video in the link I posted earlier. Those guys are open, and if Smith even completes the pass where Ashlie Lelie was wide open for a TD then the score is tied and the Niners take it to overtime, even with all of the picks Smith throws. Also, how do you not have a problem with Smith's arm strength [sic]? He cannot throw the twelve-yard out pattern, which is the fundamental measure of arm strength in the NFL. He just can't do it. His footwork is so poor that it prevents him from getting any push out of his legs, leading to fluttering passes downfield. The Niners, therefore, cannot run such patterns with their wideouts, which limits their effectiveness. It's more than lack of confidence--Alex Smith lacks the physical abilities and intelligence to play in the NFL. His fundamentals just aren't there, and he has made no improvement in that area since he joined the League.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2007-11-10 08:49pm

Week 10
Sunday, November 11
BUF @ MIA
DEN @ KC
MIN @ GB
ATL @ CAR
STL @ NO
PHI @ WAS
JAC @ TEN
CLE @ PIT
CIN @ BAL
DET @ ARI
CHI @ OAK
DAL @ NYG
IND @ SD

Monday, November 12
SF @ SEA

Byes: Texans, Patriots, Jets, Buccaneers

Damn. I hate taking so many away games, but I just can't help it this week.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2007-11-10 09:07pm

The funniest thing about the Chargers season this year is that if I had to name a single Pro Bowl prospect actually deserving of playing at Hawaii I'd be torn between Antonio Gates and our punter Mike Scifres.

Sure as hell isn't anyone else on the offense or defense.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2007-11-10 10:32pm

Fuck Don Shula, Larry Czonka and those other Miami bitches!

Growing up here in Bob Griese's hometown during the 70's, Miami was the NFL team to root for.
At least until the Colts snuck out of Baltimore in the middle of the night for Indianapolis.

That said, I was one of the few Steelers fans in my grade school and I wholly support your 'Fuck the Dolphins' attitude.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2007-11-11 03:18am

This week's winners:

Bills
Chiefs
Vikings
Steelers
Falcons
Redskins
Titans
Ravens (the losing coach might as well start cleaning out his desk after this game)

Lions
Bears
Giants
Chargers
Seahawks

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2007-11-11 04:35pm

Gah, fucking Saints. They started losing to the fucking Rams the exact moment we tuned in on our telly, then didn't stop losing till sometime after the game ended. In fact I'm not so sure they're not still losing! Fuckers!!

Qwerty 42 · Post by **Qwerty 42** » 2007-11-11 05:48pm

Apparently Minnesota scooped up Koy Detmer. Awesome. I like Detmer a lot. Not the best of quarterbacks, but he doesn't complain or boast. He's also the best holder in NFL history.

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2007-11-11 08:25pm

The Chargers sure came out flying.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2007-11-11 08:39pm

Archon wrote:The Chargers sure came out flying.

On everything but offense. Norv Turner is STILL running the ball up the middle on 1st down.

3 and out. I'm convinced, based off this mircrocosm, he's learned nothing about his shit play calling and we'll struggle offensively all night, unless Rivers gets on a roll, cause LT probably won't get shit done with Norv's unimaginative running tendencies.

edit: another interception, that's great, now we better get fucking points off the turnover. This has been killing us, we get the ball with good field position but don't get it done in the redzone or don't even get there.

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2007-11-11 09:45pm

Well it took 27 and a half minutes but Norv called a playaction on 1st down.
The offense is in fact sucking and only scored by sheer force of effort by that defense.

I can't believe it but 4 Manning INT's and 2 special teams TD's still doesn't make this a guaranteed win.

edit: sorry, I'm lying, I can believe anything after last week's fiasco.

Dark Flame · Post by **Dark Flame** » 2007-11-11 10:55pm

Colts close the gap to 21-23 with a defensive TD.

Did anyone see the Browns game? So fucking close..... 28-31. If we had come out during the second half with any effort, either offensive or defensive, we win this game. As it was, we came up a few feet short of overtime and a potential win... Damn.

In other news, Dolphins are now the only winless team, and they almost won! It's like a cruel trick played on Chardok..... Get close to a win, then find some way to lose. Bwahahaha!

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2007-11-11 11:04pm

Norv Turner called this one like crap. Half of LT's runs seem to be 1st down runs up the middle and that sort of predictability's lead to predictable results. There's been just enough penalty's and miscues or pressure on 2nd down that's lead to a LOT of 3rd and longs.

Between Chambers, Gates, Nanee and even LT as receiving threats that you can put Mike Turner in the backfield and what the fuck can the defense do? They'd be fucking retarded to put 8 in the box which they Colts have often all night [usually by showing a 7 man front and a safety runs up to the line of scrimmage late; this has happened enough that it's safe to assume most 7 man fronts are 8] and huge holes would be opened up for Turner, a career 6 yard average backup that is entirely underutilized this year. Our 1st playaction was at the 2 and a half minutes-left mark in the 1st half and I think we've perhaps thrown 2 since.

The defense and special teams have played their asses off but can only do so much. Norv's pure shit playcalling deserves half the blame but and Rivers' moving around the pocket like a beached walrus at the slightest hint of pressure leading to erratic throws and otherwise forcing it into coverage (though to be fair, not always his fault since he's had so many 3rd and longs) also deserves the other half of the blame.

There's no way we're winning this because Turner is an overrated piece of crap that puts his players in the best position to lose the game. I swear we've never even called a WR slant either in anticipation of pressure, god. You can only run it on 1st down and dump it off to LT so many times genius.

edit: I'm sick of Al Michaels calling this some super-improbable win if Indy wins. Can he read the Chargers offensive stats? The fact that they did damn near shit in the 1st half and nothing the entire 2nd half? Has he seen the predictable play calling and Rivers' bumbling which includes a fumble leading to a touchdown, forced passes into coverage and erratic accuracy under not just pressure but on the most mundane of passes? (he rifled a bullet to a halfback early in the game that was dropped and rifled one wide to Chambers in the 3rd Q and has rifled other passes off the mark)

Rivers is a 2nd year starter and they have history's of sucking like this but it's time to bench his ass for Volek just to send a message to him.