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Karmic Knight wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I think what happens next is Astaria will be the Coilerburg of STGODS SDN 2.0. The other states that support some form of slavery are again....

What did I miss in my studies of the previous game?

Coilerburg joined the UAR, for some reasons I forgot what they were.

But, this time round, given that the only other two nations that conceivably support some form of slavery is Japanistan and Shepistan, yeah, Astaria will have only those two nations to run to.

Of course, if the heavens turn on their head and Astaria does away with slavery, that might not happen. But yeah.

Veg, get rid of slavery? That's like asking Frank Miller to not write about whores.

Wow, that's a bit, uh, heavy-handed. Though I admire the lengths to which the CSR is willing to go to protect its citizens, and I certainly don't feel much in the way of sympathy for Astaria.

SiegeTank wrote:Wow, that's a bit, uh, heavy-handed. Though I admire the lengths to which the CSR is willing to go to protect its citizens, and I certainly don't feel much in the way of sympathy for Astaria.

This is what is going to bring the CSR and San Dorado together, their mutual disdain for Astaria!

Meh, I'm not particularly concerned. Astaria has an excellent Civil Defence service, the gear in the factories are mounted on shock absorbing struts, and there just aren't any good targets to go for. Marina can confirm that all my units in Velaria are in position to receive a heavy aerial bombardment, and that bunkers, supply dumps, alternate logistics paths, and so forth have all been prepared for a long, long time. Similar things are of course also true for Astaria, taking advantage of cheap large scale construction. That also means that the place is positively littered with runways suitable for the sort of rough pseudo-East Block stuff we're running. Astaria has been preparing for this eventuality for decades now, and it should show.

The destruction of shipping, if any, is of course quite irrelevant as well. It was assumed that all Astarian shipping would be destroyed the very day that a war broke out. Marina can confirm that there are indeed procedures in store for dealing with the total disruption of trade. Once more this is perfectly in line with the war plans.

All the MiG-31s, and most of the MiG-29s that I'm fielding are of course in Astaria proper. There is of course also lots and lots of SAMs, and the enemy is forced to attack across the sea giving me quite a bit of warning. There's also quite a lot of other fighters, I believe the attack on Astaria proper would face something like:

43 x Mig-31Es
140 x Mig-29s
50 x Su-27s (Possibly devoted to carrying anti-ship missiles)

Plus of course the IADS network, and of course the various long range anti-ship missiles should abound.

Once more it's bizarre that Stas is enacting the exact scenario that I've been training for / preparing for almost since the game began. Of course I wasn't really worrying about Stas just then, but still... This is what Astarian has been getting ready for.

I'm not really into the whole nuts and bolts of military gaming though (I'll look for someone who is), but I'd assume that the Astarian Air Force and Air Defence Force is competent enough. Not sure what the Navy is up to since I'm not really into naval stuff. I'll see if I can find someone who is.

EDIT: Incidentally we need some neutral agent to help work out some sort of ruling on what parts of the Astarian Navy are struck. Especially since sections of it is not anywhere near either Astaria or South Velaria. Also we need someone to help figure out what kind of losses we are looking at in terms of aircraft, civillians etc, etc.

Well, I was going to post the Cascadian Congress' response after waking up, but seeing Stas unleashed the power of his air force on the Astarian Navy I decided to post it tonight and permit responses to it.

Suffice to say President Garrett and his Cabinent will be making calls seeing who's willing to sign up for the blockade.

Yeah, and Astaria becomes a Japanistan lackey, as I guessed weeks ago. Pariah states go hand in hand, anyhow.

And Astaria falls into even more of a disdained status amongst both veterans and people who can form a synapse.

Waitwaitwait

The kidnapping was not sanctioned by Astarian government!

Going by this, Russia IRL should attack Germany because organized German crime syndicates are kidnapping Russian girls and forcing them into sex slavery.

EDIT: And goddammit...my cops are going to be interred now We'll never find those students...

PeZook wrote:Waitwaitwait

The kidnapping was not sanctioned by Astarian government!

Going by this, Russia IRL should attack Germany because organized German crime syndicates are kidnapping Russian girls and forcing them into sex slavery.

Does Germany have legalized slavery that provides even more of a protection to the kidnappers, a legalized institution that it maintains in defiance of the opinions of the majority of the world's governments?

Finally, you're not a belligerent and no war has been declared anyway. Why would your officers be interned?

PeZookia is actually in a good position to try and mediate any further conflicts with Astaria.

Steve wrote:Does Germany have legalized slavery that provides even more of a protection to the kidnappers, a legalized institution that it maintains in defiance of the opinions of the majority of the world's governments?

Finally, you're not a belligerent and no war has been declared anyway. Why would your officers be interned?

PeZookia is actually in a good position to try and mediate any further conflicts with Astaria.

Technically Byzantium is the only state that allowed an Astarian embassy, and always, everything from Astaria is heavily regulated. We do not condone slavery and refuse to allow ourselves to be used as a port of transit for slavers.

However, in light of what Astaria has done... I'm not sure if anyone wants to do anything now.

Steve wrote: Does Germany have legalized slavery that provides even more of a protection to the kidnappers, a legalized institution that it maintains in defiance of the opinions of the majority of the world's governments?

Actually, Astaria doesn't provide protection for the kidnappers, as the entire student plot has shown.

Steve wrote:Finally, you're not a belligerent and no war has been declared anyway. Why would your officers be interned?

I'm part of the SNC, any sane government would inter agents of foreign government allied with the country which just shot them up.

And whether or not war has been declared or not is moot at this point.

EDIT: Oh, and destroying the Astarian navy will do squat about the problem,since none of these people were actually kidnapped by Astarian warships.

They were all smuggled in on freighters. The only thing the strike will do is make Astaria even more insular, and thus finding any kidnapping victims succesfully smuggled into Astaria will become completely impossible.

Unless we're willing to maintain a total naval blockade of the island.

PeZook wrote:EDIT: Oh, and destroying the Astarian navy will do squat about the problem,since none of these people were actually kidnapped by Astarian warships.

They were all smuggled in on freighters. The only thing the strike will do is make Astaria even more insular, and thus finding any kidnapping victims succesfully smuggled into Astaria will become completely impossible.

Unless we're willing to maintain a total naval blockade of the island.

The trouble right now, is that Astaria is now officially allied with Japanistan. Even Stas has to withdraw at this point.

And also, naval blockades are hostile actions, and this itself is impossible now with the "Treaty of Friendship".

Steve wrote:

PeZook wrote:Waitwaitwait

The kidnapping was not sanctioned by Astarian government!

Going by this, Russia IRL should attack Germany because organized German crime syndicates are kidnapping Russian girls and forcing them into sex slavery.

Does Germany have legalized slavery that provides even more of a protection to the kidnappers, a legalized institution that it maintains in defiance of the opinions of the majority of the world's governments?

No, but in a lot of cases the local government has offered protection to the slavers, in return for bribes. Also the various national authorities do virtually nothing to crack down on this trade, in some cases because people in authority benefit from it.

Steve wrote:Finally, you're not a belligerent and no war has been declared anyway. Why would your officers be interned?

PeZookia is actually in a good position to try and mediate any further conflicts with Astaria.

I think the Pezookian officers might understand that it is hard to crack down on this trade, but that the government is making a good faith effort to do just that. Remember it's not like Pezookia would be able to launch a massive military strike on Astaria, and yet the Astarian government has gone out of its way to help them recover their citizens.

P.S. We apparently have an embassy at Tonkin too, the IRT being one of the few nations to freely trade with us.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The trouble right now, is that Astaria is now officially allied with Japanistan. Even Stas has to withdraw at this point.

And also, naval blockades are hostile actions, and this itself is impossible now with the "Treaty of Friendship".

The Friendship Treaty's article 3 specifies however that in case of war treaty partners "will maintain a strict neutrality". Unless I'm missing some covert diplo-speak in there I really don't think Stas has much to worry about at this stage beside protests from Japanistan.

(Of course whether it's feasible to conduct a long-term blockade of a nation in the middle of a giant frickin' ocean remains to be seen.)

Heh, you know the best thing is?

People everywhere are gonna cheer the CSR on that. Mine included, which means I can't really point out Astarian goodwill in the case.

I think King Paul will just remain silent.

SiegeTank wrote:The Friendship Treaty's article 3 specifies however that in case of war treaty partners "will maintain a strict neutrality". Unless I'm missing some covert diplo-speak in there I really don't think Stas has much to worry about at this stage beside protests from Japanistan.

(Of course whether it's feasible to conduct a long-term blockade of a nation in the middle of a giant frickin' ocean remains to be seen.)

True. But, note Article 4.

ARTICLE 3. If either Astaria or Japanistan, in the defence of their respective interests as above described, should become involved in war with another Power, the other High Contracting Party will maintain a strict neutrality, and use its efforts to prevent other Powers from joining in hostilities against its treaty partner.

ARTICLE 4. If in the above event any other Power or Powers should join in hostilities against the treaty partner, the other High Contracting Party will come to its assistance and will conduct the war in common, and make peace in mutual agreement with it.

Article 3 is a little vague on what sort of efforts can used. Article 4 however states that if more than one state engages in war with Astaria, well, Japanistan joins in.

Which actually puts forth another question: What if Article 4 is invoked if a joint blockade, by and far a hostile act, is enforced?

Norseman wrote:EDIT: Incidentally we need some neutral agent to help work out some sort of ruling on what parts of the Astarian Navy are struck. Especially since sections of it is not anywhere near either Astaria or South Velaria. Also we need someone to help figure out what kind of losses we are looking at in terms of aircraft, civillians etc, etc.

subjugating random villages around Valaria, are we Imperial Astaria?

Seriously though, where are these parts of your navy that are operating not in your waters?

PeZook wrote:

Steve wrote: Does Germany have legalized slavery that provides even more of a protection to the kidnappers, a legalized institution that it maintains in defiance of the opinions of the majority of the world's governments?

Actually, Astaria doesn't provide protection for the kidnappers, as the entire student plot has shown.

Indeed, you make my point in a better way. Astaria does try to catch kidnappers, and have indeed taken steps to do so. In fact when kidnapping victims are recovered they are often able to gain reperations from the assets of their abductors. As indeed I told Steve when we discussed the matter earlier on.

PeZook wrote:

Steve wrote:Finally, you're not a belligerent and no war has been declared anyway. Why would your officers be interned?

I'm part of the SNC, any sane government would inter agents of foreign government allied with the country which just shot them up.

It's certainly possible, I'm not sure what the reaction would be, but some kind of reaction is inevitable.

PeZook wrote:And whether or not war has been declared or not is moot at this point.

As I recall war was not declared before Pearl Harbour either...

PeZook wrote:EDIT: Oh, and destroying the Astarian navy will do squat about the problem,since none of these people were actually kidnapped by Astarian warships.

Even more amusingly the Navy is actually responsible for combatting piracy and slavery in Velarian waters, and have done a fairly good job of it. Moreover it's also one of the more cosmopolitan services, one which draws inventive and technically inclined youths.

PeZook wrote:They were all smuggled in on freighters. The only thing the strike will do is make Astaria even more insular,

Quite possibly, but a swing the other way wouldn't be pleasant either.

PeZook wrote:and thus finding any kidnapping victims succesfully smuggled into Astaria will become completely impossible.

Unless we're willing to maintain a total naval blockade of the island.

Impossible for outsiders anyway, the National Police and the Bureau of State Security would continue its operations.

Norseman wrote:

PeZook wrote: I'm part of the SNC, any sane government would inter agents of foreign government allied with the country which just shot them up.

It's certainly possible, I'm not sure what the reaction would be, but some kind of reaction is inevitable.

I'd imagine confining them to the hotel until it can be confirmed/denied that they're spies. It's a sensible precaution: if the entire student plot was a ploy by PeZookia to get agents into Astaria, they can't do no more damage, and if it wasn't, well - it's not like you tortured them or anything.

Karmic Knight wrote:

Norseman wrote:EDIT: Incidentally we need some neutral agent to help work out some sort of ruling on what parts of the Astarian Navy are struck. Especially since sections of it is not anywhere near either Astaria or South Velaria. Also we need someone to help figure out what kind of losses we are looking at in terms of aircraft, civillians etc, etc.

subjugating random villages around Valaria, are we Imperial Astaria?

Seriously though, where are these parts of your navy that are operating not in your waters?

For the surface ships they are mainly east of Bissauru, helping to enforce Article 4 of the Treaty for Velarian Trade, Stability, and Defence (VeTraSDef) , which amusingly enough bans the slave trade in Velaria. In short once it was clear they'd been imported from Velaria those civillians would have been free at once.

Then there's the small naval facility that I set up between Zakariyah and Aylaniyah, including a nice marine contingency. That is part of a rapid response force to deal with emergencies in the region, so that VeTraSDef member states are secure.

Finally there's my submarines, as many as possible of which are out to sea, and in an area not currently being scoured by the CSR. I'll let any neutral arbitrator know exactly where.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Article 3 is a little vague on what sort of efforts can used.

Deliberately vague, it lets the other party do whatever they think expedient.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Article 4 however states that if more than one state engages in war with Astaria, well, Japanistan joins in.

Which actually puts forth another question: What if Article 4 is invoked if a joint blockade, by and far a hostile act, is enforced?

Good question, I suppose that is up to the Japanistanis.

However stopping the slavetrade by blockading ships is silly, I would say that odds are most slaves are moved by airplane, because it makes no sense to move them by ship.

PeZook wrote:Heh, you know the best thing is?

People everywhere are gonna cheer the CSR on that. Mine included, which means I can't really point out Astarian goodwill in the case.

I think King Paul will just remain silent.

Hardly the best thing from my PoV

You people are insane! Goddamn it, how can we ever save Kasia?!

PeZook wrote:

Norseman wrote:

PeZook wrote: I'm part of the SNC, any sane government would inter agents of foreign government allied with the country which just shot them up.

It's certainly possible, I'm not sure what the reaction would be, but some kind of reaction is inevitable.

I'd imagine confining them to the hotel until it can be confirmed/denied that they're spies. It's a sensible precaution: if the entire student plot was a ploy by PeZookia to get agents into Astaria, they can't do no more damage, and if it wasn't, well - it's not like you tortured them or anything.

Yes something like that, with guards posted in the stairways and the elevator shut off. No telephones either, but the TVs would work fine, and I imagine that you'd have quite the show to watch.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:You people are insane! Goddamn it, how can we ever save Kasia?!

I hope we can recover the situation.