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Ah, the plots within plots start to twist, both in heaven and on earth.

JOB SECURITY! *zing*

I just want to know, though. I know you'll never explicitly describe Yahweh's appearance, but I just want to know how big he is in comparison to a human being.

I have a feeling Uriel's going to try and take out NYC...and he's going to hurt...

Darth Wong wrote:If flying angels are a threat to fighter planes, what about SAMs? Or for that matter, what about launching air-to-air missiles at them from longer range? Can they react to a missile the way they react to a fighter plane?

Stuart wrote:Colopatiron had blown the two missiles aimed at it out of the sky with the same casual ease he had used to wipe out the first aircraft. Now was the time to deal with its mate...

So yes, they can react to a missile the way they react to a fighter plane. But they have to know the missiles are coming. Since they seem to be restricted to (enhanced) eyesight and hearing, that means that they're not going to be able to put up a good missile defense all around themselves unless they operate in groups and watch each others' backs.

As I observed, I think the key to fighting these guys is probably to use BVR (Beyond Visual Range, defined as ranges longer than 20 nautical miles) tactics with long-range missiles like the AIM-120 and R-77. On top of that, the Russians were wise to hit Colopatiron from multiple directions at once, because angels appear to lack the kind of 360-degree awareness that radar can provide.

Xenophobe3691 wrote:I have a feeling Uriel's going to try and take out NYC...and he's going to hurt...

Really? I get the impression that Uriel will interpret Michael's command as literally as possible and take out a minor target in the US. The idea will be to get Uriel in shit with the boss, so to speak, rather than get him hurt in the process. Right now it seems to be all about Michael and his manipulations. Which is a good thing.

Nornico: Arsenal of Humanity, eh?

Simon_Jester wrote:As I observed, I think the key to fighting these guys is probably to use BVR (Beyond Visual Range, defined as ranges longer than 20 nautical miles) tactics with long-range missiles like the AIM-120 and R-77. On top of that, the Russians were wise to hit Colopatiron from multiple directions at once, because angels appear to lack the kind of 360-degree awareness that radar can provide.

Note that the R-77 family has a number of different guidance systems: while the angel was able to detect and engage the radar-guided missiles fired by the decoy pair, the IRST-cued missiles by the main pair weren't detected at all.

Long-range engagements might give the angels more reaction time. The high sustained speed of the MiG-31 and F-22 presumably let them get in fast and engage before the angels could do much, something that - say- a MiG-21 would be entirely unable to replicate.

Finally, fighters don't have 360 degree (much less 4π steradian) awareness.

I'm not sure that the guidance had anything to do with that, though; the angel surely needs a non-zero amount of time to ready his weapon, and SARH (and terminal-only active systems) would not give any indication of an inbound missile; not that a biologic could detect at any rate.

erik_t wrote:I'm not sure that the guidance had anything to do with that, though; the angel surely needs a non-zero amount of time to ready his weapon, and SARH (and terminal-only active systems) would not give any indication of an inbound missile; not that a biologic could detect at any rate.

Well, the decoy fighters' radars alerted the angel - and the missiles would generally be coming in on that threat axis. It is a sort of indirect indication of an inbound; the other pair's R-77s would give no warning until terminal seeker range, by which point it's way too late.

That brings me additional thoughts regarding the MiG-31s: if the R-33 has a flight path like the AIM-54, it'll be diving down on target, away from the launch aircraft, making it harder to identify the missiles (again, until it was too late).

That seems plausible. Of note, it's a tactic that will break down for the angels in large engagements, when there is a bunch of RF about from a variety of sources.

Lulz as always at Michael trolling Yahweh. Considering the way he has him eating out of his hand, it seems like the "power structure" that Michael wants to overthrow is more the community of top-ranked angels than the big guy himself. Yahweh himself completely swallows everything Michael says, and we haven't had any insight into his own thought processes, so it looks he sank into senility a long time ago and all the real decision-making (barring really general things like "Let's kill the humans!") comes from the Michael-rank angels. I wonder why it is that only Michael has (apparently) been having treasonous thoughts.

Also, I'm getting the impression that Yahweh and Satan are pretty much the same type of person, who just rule over two different types of states. I wonder if Yahweh is what Satan would have turned into if Abigor, Asmodeus, Beelzebuub et cetera had set aside their differences and cooperatively tried to "domesticate" Satan with sugarcoated news and even more enthusiastic ass-licking.

They were not filled with ecstasy, thought Michael quietly, he'd made sure that the doomed group had been well isolated from his night club and the growing web of influence it gave him. His stocks of ecstasy were limited and he made sure it was distributed carefully.

Struck me as very funny for some reason

OAN the issue with Angels is they have built in Radar warning systems, which means that if illuminate them for the purposes of shoving a missile up their backside they know. So in theory any of the older long range missile which is being guided in by the aircraft itself and the missile just follows the signal can get a Angel kill by acting as their own Decoy. While they are blasting the hell out of the Angel with the most powerful systems they can manage the missile comes smoking in to the oblivious Angel.

Either that or could we try burning them out by hitting them with a very powerful airborne radar/jamming system at full strength. I'm thinking the Angel if they think normal targeting Radar is unconformable, the heavier "can cook you" AEGIS style Radar on directorial aiming would be a Pain ray for them.

Simon_Jester wrote:
But the Raptor and the Lightning II are designed to do different things, and in a really big war the fact that the F-22 isn't designed to do certain things is going to show.

I think it's like the difference between a Spitfire and a Mustang. Assuming we compare aircraft from the same year of the war, the Spitfire was a superior dogfighter... but for quite a few purposes that's going to matter a lot less than the Mustang's exceptional range. So they're both good, but it's very easy to set up the terms of comparison such that you end up calling one better than the other. And that says more about what you came to the table looking for than it does about the aircraft.

We're cranking out armed versions of the BAE Hawk to operate as our el Cheapo ground attack, we certainly don't need the F-35 for that role when the Hawk would provide a better return on the investment.

Most likely, seeing as how the Obama administration came close to cancelling that in (relative) peacetime in real life.

What's so miserable about them again?

The Bush administration is the one that "came close to canceling them in peacetime"(by cutting the run from 7 to 2), not the Obama administration.

The misery part is the dangerous hullform, the placement of the VLS cells, a radar system that might be too much, a ship that's too automated, and finally integrating all this new crap into one ship at once.

SCRawl wrote:The idea will be to get Uriel in shit with the boss, so to speak, rather than get him hurt in the process.

No, Michael quite explicitly wants Uriel dead.

Uriel was too loyal and too deadly to live.

Not too terribly ambigious.

Forgive me if this question has been answered but I don't think it has. How high ranking was the colpatiron, however you spell it? If he was only a level or two below the archangels, then I think heaven's air defense will only prove irrisome. If he was a lower one, then the air battle when gets waged should be more interesting to read then the one sided slaughter in hell.

Is the atmosphere in heaven similar to hell's? It seems like the two dimensions are alike, so the reasons that made hell so dusty, i.e. that dust has nowhere to go, should exist in heaven too. Although there doesn't appear to be as many active volcanoes in heaven spewing grime and ash into the air, heaven's landmass has to come from somewhere . And landmasses usually come from some sort of volcanic eruption right?

Mr Bean wrote: OAN the issue with Angels is they have built in Radar warning systems, which means that if illuminate them for the purposes of shoving a missile up their backside they know. So in theory any of the older long range missile which is being guided in by the aircraft itself and the missile just follows the signal can get a Angel kill by acting as their own Decoy. While they are blasting the hell out of the Angel with the most powerful systems they can manage the missile comes smoking in to the oblivious Angel.

So do all the flying demons that we ever saw, from the first heralds to the Sheffield gorgon. I have trouble imagining it to be a very directional warning.

Zim wrote:Forgive me if this question has been answered but I don't think it has. How high ranking was the colpatiron, however you spell it? If he was only a level or two below the archangels, then I think heaven's air defense will only prove irrisome. If he was a lower one, then the air battle when gets waged should be more interesting to read then the one sided slaughter in hell.

Is the atmosphere in heaven similar to hell's? It seems like the two dimensions are alike, so the reasons that made hell so dusty, i.e. that dust has nowhere to go, should exist in heaven too. Although there doesn't appear to be as many active volcanoes in heaven spewing grime and ash into the air, heaven's landmass has to come from somewhere . And landmasses usually come from some sort of volcanic eruption right?

Uh, no landmasses come from land that isn't covered by water. You need volcanoes for fertile soil, but you can do that with erosion and glacier grinding.

Morilore wrote:Lulz as always at Michael trolling Yahweh. Considering the way he has him eating out of his hand, it seems like the "power structure" that Michael wants to overthrow is more the community of top-ranked angels than the big guy himself. Yahweh himself completely swallows everything Michael says, and we haven't had any insight into his own thought processes, so it looks he sank into senility a long time ago and all the real decision-making (barring really general things like "Let's kill the humans!") comes from the Michael-rank angels. I wonder why it is that only Michael has (apparently) been having treasonous thoughts.

Also, I'm getting the impression that Yahweh and Satan are pretty much the same type of person, who just rule over two different types of states. I wonder if Yahweh is what Satan would have turned into if Abigor, Asmodeus, Beelzebuub et cetera had set aside their differences and cooperatively tried to "domesticate" Satan with sugarcoated news and even more enthusiastic ass-licking.

I think Michael will take him out. As long as he exists, humanity will fight and lets not forget that Michael finds his existance... irksome.

I don't think the two ones are similar at all. Satan is more like Michael than Yanweh after all. Yahweh wants control, Satan wants power.

erik_t wrote:So do all the flying demons that we ever saw, from the first heralds to the Sheffield gorgon. I have trouble imagining it to be a very directional warning.

Demons could not do anything about an incoming missile except dodge, and from our dead Angel friend's internal monologue we know that their "radar sense" is a lot more directional.

"If we can get them, a big if. One thing that is potentially good news. The Chinese have offered to reverse-engineer the TSR-2 using experience they gained in pirating the Su-27 design. They claim they can get a prototype flying in 18 months and deliveries starting in 30. The deal is, they'll give us the first 100 aircraft off the production line in exchange for the engines and one of the two White Ghosts to act as a pattern aircraft. We can't just keep one in service so the other TSR-2 will go back to a museum, only this time with an honorable war record to her credit.

"Can the Chinese do it?" Stirrup was genuinely curious

"They got their copy of the Su-27 out fast, the Russians are hopping mad about it. So yes, I think our Chinese friends can pull it off."

I'm curious whether reverse-engineering the TSR.2 is worth the effort (and resources). Wouldn't it be easier to transfer the Eurofighter Typhoon's blueprints to China and have them mass-produce components like wings, fuselages, or even whole aircraft? This will at least provide commonality w/ an aircraft in service right this moment, simplifying training and logistics.

Samuel wrote:I don't think the two ones are similar at all. Satan is more like Michael than Yanweh after all. Yahweh wants control, Satan wants power.

We have no idea what Yahweh wants. We haven't seen his internal monologue yet, except through Michael's informed speculation that he suspects treason whenever an underling fails - just like Satan. He demands more ass-kissing than Satan, and speaks more kindly to his underlings under normal circumstances, but they both throw infantile, extremely dangerous temper tantrums when frustrated.

Peptuck wrote:

SCRawl wrote:The idea will be to get Uriel in shit with the boss, so to speak, rather than get him hurt in the process.

No, Michael quite explicitly wants Uriel dead.

Uriel was too loyal and too deadly to live.

Not too terribly ambiguous.

I don't doubt that that's the end goal, but it's also pretty clear that he doesn't just want him killed outright by the humans, or at least he fears for the damage he'll do in the process of getting himself killed. Otherwise, why wouldn't he simply pass along Yahweh's command: to take out their biggest city, immediately. No, he wants Uriel to get in trouble -- the fatal kind of trouble -- with the boss.

Well Admiral West won't be getting invited to any navy reunions any time soon. At least he can say he's not showing bias to his old service.
Thanks for using my scene, Stu.

Zim wrote:Forgive me if this question has been answered but I don't think it has. How high ranking was the colpatiron, however you spell it? If he was only a level or two below the archangels, then I think heaven's air defense will only prove irrisome. If he was a lower one, then the air battle when gets waged should be more interesting to read then the one sided slaughter in hell.

The Colopatiron are generally considered to be minor angels of deliverance, either physical or mental. Also bringers of genius or inspiration.

Lonestar wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:
But the Raptor and the Lightning II are designed to do different things, and in a really big war the fact that the F-22 isn't designed to do certain things is going to show.

I think it's like the difference between a Spitfire and a Mustang. Assuming we compare aircraft from the same year of the war, the Spitfire was a superior dogfighter... but for quite a few purposes that's going to matter a lot less than the Mustang's exceptional range. So they're both good, but it's very easy to set up the terms of comparison such that you end up calling one better than the other. And that says more about what you came to the table looking for than it does about the aircraft.

We're cranking out armed versions of the BAE Hawk to operate as our el Cheapo ground attack, we certainly don't need the F-35 for that role when the Hawk would provide a better return on the investment.

Plus, there's the fact that this is going to be a war against Heaven. When I think of Heaven's armies, I think about angels. When I think of angels, I think about halos and wings.

Right or wrong, the generals and admirals might be - at least subconciously - putting an emphasis on surface-to-air and air superiority weapons and vehicles.

I can't see them *ignoring* ground warfare, or air-to-ground weapons and vehicles, however. If for no other reasons that - baring the use of WMDs (remember, Yahweh's already using biological weapons of - at least planned - mass death and destruction) - you need ground forces to *hold* captured terriority, and that turning mankind's back on the (admittedly defeated) forces of Hell doesn't sound wise (IMO).

Still, it seems beleivable to me that America would not put a high priority on a multipurpose airplane who's chief strength seems to be air-to-ground combat. Especially since the *British* are downplaying their navy as of the current time in the story.

(Edited, as recommended.)

Michael can use Uriel for a variety of scenarios, which he comes out as the winner no matter what. If Uriel attacks New York, well then scratch one rival in the Celestial pecking order. If Uriel whinges around, Michael can either report him in and let Yahweh gobsmack Uriel, or he can use that information as leverage to control Uriel (which would be even better if Uriel has a powerbase and followers of his own).

A neutron bomb fitted onto a cruise missile might be a good choice for dealing with massed formations of angels in Heaven. Or equip every heavy machine gun and anti air artillery piece with incendiary ammunition.

Especially since the *British* are downplaying their navy as of the current time in the story.

The RN will be following the rough pattern of WW2, i.e. anything that can't be completed fairly rapidly, like say the War Emergency T45, will be suspended. It is likely, IMVHO anyway, that the QE class will reapear in the post-war period like the Audacious class and HMS Vanguard.

I suspect that the additional 'phibs will probably be repeat Bay class, as they are a bit simpler to build than a repeat LPH, or LPD.