StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Starglider wrote:

PeZook wrote:Wait, so the Rachni queen really is somehow different from every other Queen ever and she was telling the truth when she promised to be nice and not to start another galactic-scale war of genocide?

I figured she was just saying whatever she thought Shepard would want to hear in order to get out of that cage...

As I recall, she said that some evil force (i.e. Sovereign) mind-controlled the Rachni into going to war the first time. Something about 'sour notes from space that resonated with us' etc. Sure, from Sheppard's point of view she could've just made that up, but knowing the backstory it's pretty clear that the Reapers were responsible for the Rachni behavior.

That is reinforced on Illos when you talk to the Rachni Queen's emissary.

Darksider wrote:
You know, this would make a good "variant" for ME3. If you made the right choices and recruited and unified the galaxy, made steps towards peace with the Rachni, Krogan, and Geth, the War against the reapers goes surprisingly well for the galaxy. If you didn't, the war is on the verge of being lost, and your mission is far more desperate.

That would be awesome. Sounds like it's be rather easy to pull off, too.

As an aside, I've recently fallen in love with my Sentinel. Has both Throw and Slam at three ranks, so with Samara and Jack in the party, combat turns into biotic ping pong. Though replacing one of them with Grunt is funny as hell too. He constantly shotguns enemies across the floor right after they bounce after they get slammed. His commentary makes it even better.

One particularly amusing one was one a sidequest, where we were out an Eclipse merc outpost. I hit slam on a merc, hauling them upwards, but before the poor arasi could get piledrived, Samara hit her with Throw just before she made a crater, making her catch even more air, whereupon the target plummeted from the sky to the floor...but (again) before she hit, Grunt nailed her with his claymore, sending her careening into a quad of explosive canisters packed close together, which I hit with an Overload just as she impacted, killing her screaming, and taking out another three mercs at the same time.

I had to pause and consider the pure awesome of that chain.

You mean turn ME into even more Star Control? Good idea.

And turning the Rachni thing into a 'oh sorry we were misunderstood when we threatened all life in the galaxy don't hold it against us we're cute bugs' thing is yet more stupid Bioware black and white morality bullshit.

They weren't misunderstood. They were basically being manipulated/controlled into doing what they did. They wouldn't normally have acted that way.

Well they're certainly no threat then and can't be held responsible for the war.

Oh wait.

Stark wrote:Well they're certainly no threat then and can't be held responsible for the war.

Oh wait.

I'd say having the entire species almost wiped from extinction is probably enough being held responsible. Also I hear that kids are responsible for the actions of their parents.

Oh wait.

Wasn't the queen in ME1 a war veteran and her mindless brood insane? Good thing they're extinct.

Oh wait Bioware realised it was a stupid decision and made it mre black and white. . Let's forget they could kill everyone if they decided to.

Starglider wrote: As I recall, she said that some evil force (i.e. Sovereign) mind-controlled the Rachni into going to war the first time. Something about 'sour notes from space that resonated with us' etc. Sure, from Sheppard's point of view she could've just made that up, but knowing the backstory it's pretty clear that the Reapers were responsible for the Rachni behavior.

What? Yeah, let's make the Reapers responsible for everything evil that has ever happened in the galaxy, inlcuding the common cold. Brilliant writing there, Bioware.

Remember - no Paragon choice can ever lead to a bad outcome. Ever. In real life, people with good intentions never make a situation worse with their idealism, why should it happen in a game?

Ugh.

Havok wrote:Also I hear that kids are responsible for the actions of their parents.

You have to admit, though, that it takes a special kind of retard to just release a bug from a race which almost killed everyone in the galaxy because it said it was going to be nice from now on.

Surely, it would never backfire on anyone.

Stark wrote:Wasn't the queen in ME1 a war veteran and her mindless brood insane? Good thing they're extinct.

No, she said she was still in an egg when the war happened and her kids went insane because researchers kept them in cages separate from Mum.

Which is totally true, naturally, because it's been said by a creature trying not to get liquified by acid, which makes it automatically unable to lie. Naturally.

Stark wrote:Wasn't the queen in ME1 a war veteran and her mindless brood insane? Good thing they're extinct.

Oh wait Bioware realised it was a stupid decision and made it mre black and white. . Let's forget they could kill everyone if they decided to.

Nah, she was an egg they found way after the war and her brood was insane because of Soverigns influence IIRC.

I got the impression they were insane due to Noverian experimentation somehow. I guess they retconned that when they decided the cute little rachni were totally innocent f that genocidal war and it's good to have them around.

Ps? Humans won that genocidal war. Fucking Rachni.

The entire "holy shit Krogan and Rachni breeding rate makes them unstoppable; things like food availability, technology and industrial capacity are irrelevant" sthick is already stupid enough to begin with so I really had no problem with assuming that nothing bad will happen by being "good" and allowing Krogan/Rachni to reproduce/survive.

Stark wrote:I got the impression they were insane due to Noverian experimentation somehow. I guess they retconned that when they decided the cute little rachni were totally innocent f that genocidal war and it's good to have them around.

Ps? Humans won that genocidal war. Fucking Rachni.

Actually, I think Pezook is right. It was something along the lines of keeping them separated from her 'song'. It's also not a retconn because they actually touched on it in ME1.

Stark wrote:I got the impression they were insane due to Noverian experimentation somehow. I guess they retconned that when they decided the cute little rachni were totally innocent f that genocidal war and it's good to have them around.

It's outright stated in the game by the Queen that young Rachni go insane unless their Mummy is around to teach them how to behave. There's no mention or suggestion of Sov's influence anywhere, stop assigning every little fuckup to evil Reapers mind controlling everybody, people!

Of course, the Queen might've been lying her ass off, but now we know she was totally truthful thanks to ME2. Yay!

Stark wrote:Ps? Humans won that genocidal war. Fucking Rachni.

Not really, the Salarians did via Krogan proxy, and then rewarded their pet fighters by forced sterilization of 99% of their population some time later when the Krogan threatened to replace the Rachni as a danger to galactic civilization. Which was explored and elaborated upon really well in ME2, for a change.

The entire "holy shit Krogan and Rachni breeding rate makes them unstoppable; things like food availability, technology and industrial capacity are irrelevant" sthick

You're implying that out of nowhere. Obviously, the krogan and rachni had the technology and industrial capability to be a threat at the time of the Rachni War / Krogan Rebellions, respectively. No one ever said that their high birth rate would somehow guarantee victory, only that in the case of the krogan it would likely lead to war - with Mordin explicitly saying that the result of that war would be the humans and turians wiping the krogan out.

PeZook wrote:It's outright stated in the game by the Queen that young Rachni go insane unless their Mummy is around to teach them how to behave. There's no mention or suggestion of Sov's influence anywhere, stop assigning every little fuckup to evil Reapers mind controlling everybody, people!

Of course, the Queen might've been lying her ass off, but now we know she was totally truthful thanks to ME2. Yay!

Uh yeah, as I already said, the Rachni queen tells Shepard, through her emissary, that it was Sovereign that 'soured their song' driving them to war in the first place, which is why when the time is right, they will join Shepard's side.

Havok wrote: Uh yeah, as I already said, the Rachni queen tells Shepard, through her emissary, that it was Sovereign that 'soured their song' driving them to war in the first place, which is why when the time is right, they will join Shepard's side.

Right, but it had nothing to do with why her young were murdering people on that station.

BTW, if Sov could just snap his tentacles and mind control the entire species once, what's to say another Reaper can't do it all over again? What makes that particular Queen immune to this, happy thoughts? Her New Age philosophy? A tinfoil hat, perhaps?

I doubt she is immune, but everything we have seen indicates that some direct contact is required for any level of indoctrination. And as was also stated, Nazara was gathering allies for centuries, perhaps even millennium. So that process could have taken hundreds of years for all we know, but it obviously, isn't instantaneous.

But then you wouldn't have a sawrm of bugs on your side! That's why foolishly letting her go was the 'right' thing to do.

Stark wrote:But then you wouldn't have a sawrm of bugs on your side! That's why foolishly letting her go was the 'right' thing to do.

Well, if you kill her, there is no mention of the Rachni in the second game, so they may not play prominently in the next installment, if at all.

Which has no impact on how stupid that decision was, since you didn't have that information.


Ps bets on a swarm of hugs being key to stopping the Reapers? PSYCHIC ATTACK!

PeZook wrote:It's outright stated in the game by the Queen that young Rachni go insane unless their Mummy is around to teach them how to behave. There's no mention or suggestion of Sov's influence anywhere, stop assigning every little fuckup to evil Reapers mind controlling everybody, people!

Of course, the Queen might've been lying her ass off, but now we know she was totally truthful thanks to ME2. Yay!

One of the researchers says more or less the same thing earlier on Noveria; it's pretty clear she's not lying about that.

Stark wrote:You mean turn ME into even more Star Control? Good idea.

And turning the Rachni thing into a 'oh sorry we were misunderstood when we threatened all life in the galaxy don't hold it against us we're cute bugs' thing is yet more stupid Bioware black and white morality bullshit.

Wait, so the Rachni queen really is somehow different from every other Queen ever and she was telling the truth when she promised to be nice and not to start another galactic-scale war of genocide?

I figured she was just saying whatever she thought Shepard would want to hear in order to get out of that cage...

Also, I could've recruited that Geth sniper?

To reply to both of you, yes, any sane person would conclude that the Rachni queen was doing whatever it took to survive, and was probably going to pull a fast one on you. But I still let her go, because the choice was labeled "paragon" and I just know that they aren't going to make a choice like that come back to bite you in the ass.

Retroactively, we now know that it's almost certainly going to be for the better since the queen sends you a message in ME2, and is apparently spending its time saving kittens from trees and helping old ladies cross the road.

You know, this would make a good "variant" for ME3. If you made the right choices and recruited and unified the galaxy, made steps towards peace with the Rachni, Krogan, and Geth, the War against the reapers goes surprisingly well for the galaxy. If you didn't, the war is on the verge of being lost, and your mission is far more desperate.

It would be ok, but disappointing. The nature of the beast is that they will be forced to use smoke and mirrors, and as soon as you do a second playthrough having made different choices the illusion of having an impact on the story will be shattered. Just like everything else they've done. The only thing that would change is, as you said, some backstory stuff about how the war is going. We all know that they aren't going to screw paragon players for putting the Rachni in, and they aren't going to screw Renegade players since they're trying to make it a viable option. Most of the renegade choices involves burning bridges as far as diplomacy is concerned. You'll be able to win either way, with some minor story impact (on the level of your squadmates dying in ME2 if you don't upgrade, I can envision the Rachni fleet coming in to save one of your team at a critical junction or something like that), and because of this the "choices" will feel quite weak.

Wasn't the queen in ME1 a war veteran and her mindless brood insane? Good thing they're extinct.

No, and we don't just have the queen's word for that. Discuss it with the Scientists on Noveria, they will tell you that they found the Queen in an egg on a derelict ship.

adam_grif wrote: To reply to both of you, yes, any sane person would conclude that the Rachni queen was doing whatever it took to survive, and was probably going to pull a fast one on you. But I still let her go, because the choice was labeled "paragon" and I just know that they aren't going to make a choice like that come back to bite you in the ass.

Well, that says a lot about their morality system, doesn't it?

Renegade/paragon options almost never lead to an actually different result: you always complete the mission just fine. There aren't even any token consequences: I'm well aware it's impossible to make two different games, but Witcher managed to seed consequences of your actions throughout the entire game without necessitating a complete redo of the main plots.

It would be ok, but disappointing. The nature of the beast is that they will be forced to use smoke and mirrors, and as soon as you do a second playthrough having made different choices the illusion of having an impact on the story will be shattered. Just like everything else they've done. The only thing that would change is, as you said, some backstory stuff about how the war is going.

The funny thing is that it would be absolutely trivial to have consequences without necessitating a redo of assets and voice-acting. You could do things like locking out certain stores from the player if he let the council die, denying or granting him resources, making some quests easier and others harder, etc.

Right now, even if you killed the Council and the Turians fucking hate you, you can still effortlessly get a discount in the Citadel gun store. Come on!

And we know they did do some animations and a lot of voice acting to differentiate between choice, so it's not like they must do it without making any assets.

We all know that they aren't going to screw paragon players for putting the Rachni in, and they aren't going to screw Renegade players since they're trying to make it a viable option.

Of course, that makes the distinction completely meaningless, other than some fluff.

Most of the renegade choices involves burning bridges as far as diplomacy is concerned. You'll be able to win either way, with some minor story impact (on the level of your squadmates dying in ME2 if you don't upgrade, I can envision the Rachni fleet coming in to save one of your team at a critical junction or something like that), and because of this the "choices" will feel quite weak.

They make fun of people via the game dealer on the citadel, but it just made me laugh: Mass Effect's "Big choices" are almost never actually a choice between two different options. For example: if you go the extra two steps to help out the Salarians on Virmire, nothing happens.. It's not a choice at all ; It's "be a dickhead for no reason" or "be a team player", like many other Renegade/Paragon "choices".

And, naturally, the "I don't anybody's help tell them to go fuck themselves" approach every major Renegade option boils down to is immensely infuriating ; You're supposed to be ruthless and driven and "accomplish the missions at all costs" - sometimes, it means getting somebody to help you out. Sometimes they get it right, but it's usually Shep threatening to shoot people in the face.

Yes, nine times out of ten the difference between choosing Paragon or Renegade dialogue options is whether you ask somebody nicely or confront them aggressively. 50% of the time, the response they give you is identical either way. It's hardly ever an actual moral choice, it's just Shepard's "attitude meter".

We're treading old ground here, but I loathe them trying the persuasion system to Paragon and Renegade points. Getting handicapped for being balanced is really shitty, especially since you'd think that a more neutral point of view would be better for persuading people to see your side of things.

There was an actual choice on Virmire, now that I think about it, where you had to leave a character to die. That was good: an actual choice with actual consequences between two characters that were at least likeable. In ME2 they dumped this idea for some reason, severely reducing the dramatism of the final mission: Shepard doesn't have to make sacrifices, doesn't have to make a single harsh decision. Again, upgrading or not is not a choice: you do it if you can, because only a completely incompetent retard wouldn't. Unless you make a dumbass decision when it comes to assigning people to their various tasks, blowing up the Collector base is a breeze.