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phongn wrote:I personally think these massive defense buildups should have serious economic repercussions. If not simply deficit spending, something else, because otherwise it's absurd.

Is Shroomania increasing its defense budget to 5% from the old 2.5% bad?

Norseman wrote: Hardly the best thing from my PoV

Such is politics. People hate you for some reason, it would seem

Shroom Mam 777 wrote:Is Shroomania increasing its defense budget to 5% from the old 2.5% bad?

You did it very fast, so yeah. Unless you had record profits from state-owned industries or a massive budget surplus, you'd have to finance that with deficit. And that means inflation, which east into your real GDP growth and makes people nervous.

I plan to increase taxes and reform the administration over two-three years to compensate for deficit spending in order to offset that.

I planned my existing force for a budget of 30 billion or so, then the Duchess let me upgrade to Kingdom status, which I was close to when we began the game. That let my existing defense budget increase, making it 5% of a kingdom rather then 5% of a Principality. I've been operating on half my available funds, so I should be able to increase my force without too much economic disruption. If it does prove too much, I can always postpone my new CV design.

Shep, I've decided I need some new Naval patrol craft. Are the PB-56s still for sale?

What Norseman "meant to do" and what he did are different things.

The sudden-strike bombing run took 1 hour to complete.

1500 Kh-15P SEAD missiles, 60 Kh-31PD SEAD missiles, 50 Kh-22P SEAD missiles, for a total of 1610 SEAD missiles were expended against naval and other radars in Astaria. 16x Meteorit-M from "Admiral Ushakov" and 40 Meteorit-A cruise missiles were expended against airfields and naval yards in Astaria.

200 R-77PD ramjet MRAAMs were wasted, 250 R-77 MRAAMs were wasted, and 60 KS-172 AAM-L were wasted in combat with Astarian airforce.

10 Astarian MiG-31 survived, 10 were lost.

50 Astarian MiG-29 survived, 50 were lost and 100 suffered various levels of damage on the airfields.

Five Astarian AFBs were destroyed.

20 batteries of various versions of S-300 were destroyed, 20 batteries of various versions of S-200 likewise.

All Astarian AEW craft (10 Beriev A-50) were destroyed, 2 in the air, 2 on the rise, and 6 on the airfield.

The Astarian Navy has suffered a total loss of ships except one destroyer which remained away for the hostilities period.

Anyone want to contest this outcome?

1 MiG-31M agressor lost. 10 MiG-29 lost. 8 Su-33 lost. 2 Tu-22M5 lost. 3 Tu-95-MS16 lost.

One destroyer lost to an Astarian SSK (the SSK subsequently destroyed).

I took the liberty of posting a mini-update on the fate of the PeZookian comissars. Now I have to go and drink something warm.

And get some sleep. Yes.

Stas Bush wrote:What Norseman "meant to do" and what he did are different things.

What exactly does this mean?

Stas Bush wrote:10 Astarian MiG-31 survived, 10 were lost.

Given that I have 43 that's a bit peculiar... Last time I checked 10+10 = 20, not 43.

Stas Bush wrote:All Astarian AEW craft (10 Beriev A-50) were destroyed, 2 in the air, 2 on the rise, and 6 on the airfield.

Amazing! You've shot down two more AEWs than I have! Will miracles never cease?

Stas Bush wrote:The Astarian Navy has suffered a total loss of ships except one destroyer which remained away for the hostilities period.

How? No seriously how exactly can I lose my entire navy when several major fleet units aren't anywhere near your attack force?

Stas Bush wrote:Anyone want to contest this outcome?

Given that you've shot down more AEWs than I have, that you've magically vanished away half my MiG-31 force, that you've sunk fleet units nowhere near any of your bombers, AND...

Stas Bush wrote:One destroyer lost to an Astarian SSK (the SSK subsequently destroyed).

That you can destroy an SSK that's several hundred miles away from the action...

Yes I do indeed want to contest this outcome, because parts of it violates the laws of physics and logic as we know it.

PeZook wrote:You did it very fast, so yeah. Unless you had record profits from state-owned industries or a massive budget surplus, you'd have to finance that with deficit. And that means inflation, which east into your real GDP growth and makes people nervous.

Well... Shroomanian industries are really profitable! And... maybe I DID have budget surplus! We've been pretty lax.

I plan to increase taxes and reform the administration over two-three years to compensate for deficit spending in order to offset that.

I shall do these too!


After I finish watching David Shroomwie.

Ok Veg, where are your fleet units?

Anyway, this is total ass. I'm scared of the Goddamn Crimsons right now.

I think I should be more scared of Stas and Fingolfin than Shep and Skim, for some reason.

Beowulf wrote:Ok Veg, where are your fleet units?

I'd have to check my notes at home, but the bulk of the fleet is divided between the home waters (Astaria-Eastern South Velaria), and patrols / show the flag missions along the South Velarian coast. Several destroyers are in the latter group, and I'm fairly sure at least two helicopter destroyers are there too (nothing like an Mi-24 to hunt down pirates that try to hide up a river).

The submarines are in the main out to sea due to... ah... shall we say the concern that certain *cough* unspecified powers should attack me. As many as possible are therefore out to sea, ready to attack enemy shipping in case of war.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Anyway, this is total ass. I'm scared of the Goddamn Crimsons right now.

I think I should be more scared of Stas and Fingolfin than Shep and Skim, for some reason.

Then we're moving towards a multi polar world! Isn't this a good thing?

This confuses me. Norseman never put down the exact figures for his OOB, beyond saying so and so country's numbers, so just how many aircraft and what not do you have?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:This confuses me. Norseman never put down the exact figures for his OOB, beyond saying so and so country's numbers, so just how many aircraft and what not do you have?

What do you mean? Astarian OOB for 2008 there's been some minor changes since then (addition of a Soryu class submarine), highly increased troop readiness, some additional land forces in South Velaria, and such. However the number of airplanes didn't change.

Responding to the blockade of Astoria will be tricky. I've got no love for slavers, but the CSR is showing itself to be a use force first power. The fact that Indhopal is already leery of the CSR doesn't help here.

Shroom, "Ground control to major Schrom" would flow better

I'm thinking of really re-activating the FUN.

Sirnoth is a nation of frightening proximity of Shepistan and, thus, nuclear annihilation.

I am near Japanistan.

Going 100% with MESS or the other folks who go about doing on-the-spot military adventures might earn us unwanted nukes at our direction. What we need are not militaristic actions that will beget only more killiness, but moderation and reason.

We need the Fungal/Free Union of Nations.


Cascadia has been trying to mediate peace in the world. Zoria and the Kingdom of Serenity/Mangka are trying to form some form of alliance. Well, let me tell you that you can get Shroomania in on an alliance and through that, you can get Shroomania's friends in PeZookia AND Frequesue. And Langley! And Sirnoth!

We can work together so we can try and avoid getting into willie nillie wars or annexations or campaigns or flashpoints.


The Free Union of Nations. A third (or fourth) party in this world.

We'll work WITH the MESS and the SNC, but we WON'T go out of our way to piss off Shepistan or Japanistan or something like that. We'll act as a MEDIATING and MODERATING force to make sure that the MESS/SNC don't get into wars with Shep-Skim (or VICE VERSA), wars that will get the REST OF US dead as well.

We can be a force to unify and cohesivify the world around us.

The remains of the FUN - its space programme FASTA - has already engaged the Japanistanis in cooperation for satellites and shit.

If we can reactivate the FUN into an effective force for peace, as we did in SDN Game 1 (before Shep killed us all), I think we can do this.



WE CAN DO THIS




I can get off my ass and stop dicking around - and work with friends and allies to SAVE THE WORLD!


It'll be just like good old times! YEAH!


The FUN was born out of adversity - with the same psychos in the MESS, OMSK Pact, and the UAR trying to MURDER EACH OTHER.

It is time for a return!

Raj Ahten wrote:Responding to the blockade of Astoria will be tricky. I've got no love for slavers, but the CSR is showing itself to be a use force first power. The fact that Indhopal is already leery of the CSR doesn't help here.

Given that your navy in general doesn't run on nuclear power, for you to enforce a blockade will require a long logistics train. So no, for you to even help is hard.

Raj Ahten wrote:Responding to the blockade of Astoria will be tricky. I've got no love for slavers, but the CSR is showing itself to be a use force first power. The fact that Indhopal is already leery of the CSR doesn't help here.

There's no blockade yet here. Also they are attacking Astaria not because of anything the government did, but because a group of criminals abducted a citizen of the CSR. Even more amusing the CSR is attacking the one organisation who is actively suppressing the slave trade in Velaria: The Astarian Navy!

Sure its sexier to go after the Astarians for when criminals abduct a few dozen foreigners. However when thousands of people are traded among the Velarian nations nothing happens. Funny that.

Norseman wrote:There's no blockade yet here. Also they are attacking Astaria not because of anything the government did, but because a group of criminals abducted a citizen of the CSR. Even more amusing the CSR is attacking the one organisation who is actively suppressing the slave trade in Velaria: The Astarian Navy!

Sure its sexier to go after the Astarians for when criminals abduct a few dozen foreigners. However when thousands of people are traded among the Velarian nations nothing happens. Funny that.

To be honest, to fully suppress the slave trade requires you to suppress the docks etc. It is going to very difficult for your navy to even do half the job especially given the size of Valeria.

In any case, Stas, maybe you should back off a little and talk a little?

In fact, I will make an official statement, and mail it to the Astarian embassy in Constantinople.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:To be honest, to fully suppress the slave trade requires you to suppress the docks etc. It is going to very difficult for your navy to even do half the job especially given the size of Valeria.

I'm only covering the VeTraSDef area, that is roughly southern Velaria, where I have local agents, and supposedly government support. The kind of abductions that occurred in Bissauru is exactly what I've been actively working to suppress. Any investigation into the area by anyone somewhat unbiased would reveal that. For that matter stuff like the investigation of the vanished Pezookian students show that its not just a threat of force here; Astaria is genuinely trying to crack down on this.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:In any case, Stas, maybe you should back off a little and talk a little?

It'd be nice yes. Technically he has also attacked a series of south Velarian nations (according to VeTraSDef), but I doubt the mighty San Marin navy will make him sit up awake at night

Well, I made my statement, worded to call for calm, and for mediation, instead of war.

Norseman wrote:What exactly does this mean?

The fact that you went under Japanistan as soon as you felt your nation was going to get problems for it's acts.

Norseman wrote:Given that I have 43 that's a bit peculiar... Last time I checked 10+10 = 20, not 43. ... Amazing! You've shot down two more AEWs than I have!

Given you never listed the assets you have, instead referring to a vague "Ukraine" airforce with MiG-31s and A-50s, I took the liberty to assign numbers. If you wish to change them, that's all good and well. Let's say 19 were destroyed in-air, while 15 was damaged on-ground, and 9 survived.

If you have less A-50 AEWs, let's say they all were destroyed in-air, some active, some rising, by KS-172 missiles.

Norseman wrote:How? No seriously how exactly can I lose my entire navy when several major fleet units aren't anywhere near your attack force?

Where exactly are the fleet units then? You never detailed neither your Naval OOB, nor the location of your naval assets. In that case anything that was near Astarian coastline in South Veleria was destroyed. Fleet ships elsewhere are unharmed.

Norseman wrote:That you can destroy an SSK that's several hundred miles away from the action...

Again, you never detailed how many SSKs you have, and assuming you have a Japanese-type Navy, you have several. I presumed you deployed them all in the vinicity of Astarian coastline to, uh... increase their survivability, damage potential and the ability to protect your coastline from enemy ships.. but if instead you sent those SSKs away, fine.

Norseman wrote:Technically he has also attacked a series of south Velarian nations

Technically I am only engaging in destruction of military assets my citizens felt were complicit in the kidnapping of our citizens. So far. No carpet bombing and cluster munitions, as well as chemical warheads. Would you prefer that changing?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Well, I made my statement, worded to call for calm, and for mediation, instead of war.

In that case I need someone with official relations with Astaria to mediate. My nation has none, and even if it planned to send a token diplomatic mission in the form of "consulate", it no longer does.

Also, I have already "withdrawn" the sword. The only thing we can determine is the point at which the bombers turned away, and what the losses inflicted on Norseman and my forces were.

Norseman wrote:What do you mean? Astarian OOB for 2008 there's been some minor changes since then (addition of a Soryu class submarine), highly increased troop readiness, some additional land forces in South Velaria, and such. However the number of airplanes didn't change.

I hate quoting myself but there is an OoB up there and running, if you'd scrolled down a little or used the search function you would have found it.

Also my treaty with Skimmer was agreed upon days ago, even before the spat over the "Star of Sweethaven."

Oh, thanks. If I had seen that OOB, things would've been a little easier.

Now, I was even grateful. I gave you an S-300PMU-1 to down my MiG-31Ms from "Agressor Squadron" - had I stuck with what Marina gave you, that is basic versions of everything, you'd be royally screwed.

You'd need around a half an hour to lift your MiG-31 fighters in the air if they are not already alerted (and they were not, since the only thing piercing the AEW&C were MiG-31Ms for the time being). And other fighters as well require time to rise, if they are not already in-air. Depending on how many airstrips you had, you could've lifted 10 to 30 fighters overall in 10 minutes, and half that in 5 minutes after the initial AEW&C was shot down by KS-172.

Therefore, my basic estimations of the number of craft lost are more or less correct.

8 AEW&C planes, if 2 or 4 were up at the moment, would have been taken out in the first 5-8 minutes by an attack squad of MiG-31s given the small area of operations and the MiG-31s powerful radar.

Astarian Navy, just where the HELL are all those ships, tell me Norseman? Are they around Veleria? Assembled into taskforces and roaming the seas? Or lonely? Defending coast?

P.S. Do you have ICQ Norse? Let's hash out the battle! It won't go anywhere if we don't cooperate, I don't know where your armed units are.

P.P.S. I presumed that Astaria does not have any large super-radars (Cat House, Hen House, etc.) like the USSR had, since Marina explicitly said you did not.