Avatar review thread

[Zor]

Just a thought, a minor thing that gets to me is the bulldozers. This is not a dealbreaker or anything for me, but i still find it to be rather silly that Bulldozers the size of small office buildings managed to sneak up on the Tree of Voices. Really even in the forest you should here them comming a mile away or at least see the bare ground left by the damn things, especially since i doub't they can go faster than two or three kilometers per hour.

Zor

[Spoonist]

Just a thought, a minor thing that gets to me is the bulldozers. This is not a dealbreaker or anything for me, but i still find it to be rather silly that Bulldozers the size of small office buildings managed to sneak up on the Tree of Voices. Really even in the forest you should here them comming a mile away or at least see the bare ground left by the damn things, especially since i doub't they can go faster than two or three kilometers per hour.

Zor

Not really. Jungle canopy(sp?) is extremely effective sound suppressant. Also it is implied that they are way out from camp. As far as finding a trail, not really, if you dislike the skypeople you are not going to go to their mine in a hurry and if you don't then you will not cross the path which is going straight from the mine to your home.
So I find this a very very minor nitpick.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

I find it a little odder that those rolling office blocks had only one camera bank for navigation...

And whoever it was who said that the Na'vi are "just going to sit on it until their sun dies" what, the, fuck? Do you have any conception of how long that is? By that time, even assuming they're not in contact with a powerful benevolent species human, their creators, or otherwise, that's more than long enough for them to work out a way to develop to unimagined technological heights on their own, regardless of (continued or rejected) veneration of their planet.

Yeah, billions of years. I will note I also mentioned alternative things rendering their planet inhospitable. That Gas Giant would make an ELO Asteroid a little less likely... but not impossible...

But here's my full thought process. We have, to this DAY, pockets of people still living at this level around the world. There might be a few tribes around the moon-world of Pandora that are more analogous to the Old World Civilizations, and are building up a technological base, but for tribes like Netiryi's why bother?

They can (with Home Tree) clearly support a fair sized population. They have the banshees and horse-things for transport, and a the UST to prop up their Nature Religion. (Not to mention the lack of any apparent agriculture...)

All of this, to me, will gel them right where they are until something happens to their environment to make it unable to support them.

[Darth Wong]

I find it a little odder that those rolling office blocks had only one camera bank for navigation...

They probably have open cockpit operation most of the time, so it's not usually an issue. They closed all the hatches for this operation, and I guess the vehicle isn't that well designed to run when it's all buttoned up. It's not too unreasonable to imagine.

But here's my full thought process. We have, to this DAY, pockets of people still living at this level around the world. There might be a few tribes around the moon-world of Pandora that are more analogous to the Old World Civilizations, and are building up a technological base, but for tribes like Netiryi's why bother?

That's a good question before the humans arrive. After the human experience, they would have to be imbeciles not to attempt technological progress, particularly with knowledgeable advisers handy.

They can (with Home Tree) clearly support a fair sized population. They have the banshees and horse-things for transport, and a the UST to prop up their Nature Religion. (Not to mention the lack of any apparent agriculture...)

All of this, to me, will gel them right where they are until something happens to their environment to make it unable to support them.

No, it won't. They just got their asses kicked and their Home Tree destroyed with contemptuous ease by a human group with comparatively puny numbers. They eventually won, but only with help from the planet itself, and I'm sure Jake Sully would point out to them that the humans didn't even bring their best stuff, never mind large numbers. They would have to be complete and utter imbeciles not to recognize that they need something closer to technological parity with potential invaders after this fiasco, especially considering the way their fighting ranks were decimated during the fighting.

Keep in mind that even though they eventually won, they suffered very heavy losses and they were not facing anything remotely approaching equivalent numbers of humans.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

I find it a little odder that those rolling office blocks had only one camera bank for navigation...

They probably have open cockpit operation most of the time, so it's not usually an issue. They closed all the hatches for this operation, and I guess the vehicle isn't that well designed to run when it's all buttoned up. It's not too unreasonable to imagine.

True. It also just struck me that they're probably a combination Land-clearer/Mining-Platform/Processing-Facility. Hence their huge size...

That's a good question before the humans arrive. After the human experience, they would have to be imbeciles not to attempt technological progress, particularly with knowledgeable advisers handy.

It's something I hold out hope for in the supposed sequels they've claimed to have planned. Yet, I still don't quite see much beyond Jake boot-strapping modern armament onto the natives with whatever fabrication equipment they have on hand.

No, it won't. They just got their asses kicked and their Home Tree destroyed with contemptuous ease by a human group with comparatively puny numbers. They eventually won, but only with help from the planet itself, and I'm sure Jake Sully would point out to them that the humans didn't even bring their best stuff, never mind large numbers. They would have to be complete and utter imbeciles not to recognize that they need something closer to technological parity with potential invaders after this fiasco, especially considering the way their fighting ranks were decimated during the fighting.

Keep in mind that even though they eventually won, they suffered very heavy losses and they were not facing anything remotely approaching equivalent numbers of humans.

Very true. Not to mention that Jake is posed to be the next chief. [Former's dead, rival's dead, pair-bonded to the 'queen'...]

Post human-incursion, it is a very open question. But from what I recall of the ending speech, it honestly sounds like Sully is going to become Chief, declare Hell's Gate off limits, and resume business as usual...

I'm probably overestimating resistance to teching up from both the Na'vi themselves, and any influence the planet has over them though.

[PeZook]

Well, any response to adopting technology is bound not to be universal. After all, some Na'Vi might feel they don't need to abandon their old way of life, depending on Eywa to protect them (after all, she proved she will). Others will want to get the cool weapons but become resistant to everything else that's needed to support them, yet others will embrace human technology. It wasn't as if historically, native tribes rushed to adopt the invaders' technology either. Of course, they didn't face quite the level of disparity shown with the Home Tree battle.

[NecronLord]

Well, any response to adopting technology is bound not to be universal. After all, some Na'Vi might feel they don't need to abandon their old way of life, depending on Eywa to protect them (after all, she proved she will).

Or, Eywa may poke at them to get things done... Especially if it really has assimilated Grace's knowledge.

Others will want to get the cool weapons but become resistant to everything else that's needed to support them, yet others will embrace human technology. It wasn't as if historically, native tribes rushed to adopt the invaders' technology either. Of course, they didn't face quite the level of disparity shown with the Home Tree battle.

Actually, native tribes in North America were very eager to adapt new technologies, witness their wholesale adaptation of horses and rifles - there were limits to what they could reconcile with their culture, and their numbers after being purged by disease (the Na'vi do not need to care about this) limited their ability to learn from these things. Witness how synonymous they are with the horse. This does not apply to all hunter-gatherer tribes in other places, of course (and of course, some, such as Tasmanians, were made subject to wholesale genocide campaigns) but the same model of culture may have the Na'vi, after this incident, wholesale embrace the knowledge now available to them (as they appear to have embraced some human knowledge before finding out what the company wanted).

This doesn't mean they will be able to effectively fight off the humans within a practicable time, but it certainly means that human knowledge (and if the idea that Eywa is a repository of the minds of the dead is true, then Grace's knowledge, along with any other scientists who're uploaded may remain available for consultation indefinitely) may well contribute to technological development.

[phred]

This doesn't mean they will be able to effectively fight off the humans within a practicable time, but it certainly means that human knowledge (and if the idea that Eywa is a repository of the minds of the dead is true, then Grace's knowledge, along with any other scientists who're uploaded may remain available for consultation indefinitely) may well contribute to technological development.

So the question becomes, how much can they accomplish in ~12 years? Assuming the company has the support to gear up and come back to try again?

I assume part of it would depend on how well the people can download info that they got from Grace and the others.

[NecronLord]

So the question becomes, how much can they accomplish in ~12 years? Assuming the company has the support to gear up and come back to try again?

Nothing meaningful, however, it's unlikely the corporation will return, in my reading of it. Why the hell would those gobshites retain their access to the system after the titanic screwup that is the film?

[Andrew_Fireborn]

So the question becomes, how much can they accomplish in ~12 years? Assuming the company has the support to gear up and come back to try again?

Nothing meaningful, however, it's unlikely the corporation will return, in my reading of it. Why the hell would those gobshites retain their access to the system after the titanic screwup that is the film?

It depends on how many ships are actually running the route...

With less than 2, it would mean they've been on Pandora for 12 years already by the time Sully arrives. With two, there's already a second crew en route. Probably without a full contingent of Security forces, most likely without any of the heavy equipment, but still a second human presence.

[Gramzamber]

There's always the possibility that the company has enough connections and pull on Earth to spin-doctor this embarassing failure and their own belligerence into being victims of a vicious alien attack and eventually return with greater military support, promises of more unobtanium fuelling bent government officials into giving them a second chance.

Even if not, the humans are going to return someday and it'd be stupid to still be banging rocks in blissful ignorance. Eywa can only do so much, I suspect.

[Companion Cube]

So the question becomes, how much can they accomplish in ~12 years? Assuming the company has the support to gear up and come back to try again?

Nothing meaningful, however, it's unlikely the corporation will return, in my reading of it. Why the hell would those gobshites retain their access to the system after the titanic screwup that is the film?

It depends on how many ships are actually running the route...

With less than 2, it would mean they've been on Pandora for 12 years already by the time Sully arrives. With two, there's already a second crew en route. Probably without a full contingent of Security forces, most likely without any of the heavy equipment, but still a second human presence.

Going by the Pandorapedia site, there're 12 starships on the route between Earth and Pandora, so I'd assume there's more than one on the way as the film ends. But they'll presumably be carrying replacement personnel, rather than an invading army. They won't have any real ability to counter-attack, so the Na'vi have a few years before the ship with Selfridge and company arrive back at Earth (or rather, before their radio signals do so).

[JointStrikeFighter]

They have FTL comms.

[Highlord Laan]

RDA has a bottleneck on the information getting out and has already proven itself willing to commit atrocities to increase profits. Their investors just took a massive hit, and as it was pointed out before, greedy corporate filth that get stopped even for a moment from exploiting others for their own profit/amusement quickly become angry corporate filth that now have an axe to grind with the measly plebeians that dared interfere with their obscene flow of wealth.

Since I'm certain future humanity will be exactly as it is now, it would be a trivial thing for RDA's scum-lords spin the information they have a chokehold on, buy off equally greedy and vile politicos, and turn their mercenary dead into "brave fighters that gave their lives to buy our people time to escape," thus giving them a bloody shirt to wave to the mindless populace, (which will eat it up like ambrosia) and get their pawns the government to give them massive bailouts, and back the company militarily.

Taking this to it's ultimate conclusion, the Na'vi are doomed. Or, barring total destruction as a race, will be forced to live in preserves as less than second class citizens (if that) while wealthy interests rape their world.

[Highlord Laan]

Ghetto Edit: RDA can then prove that it does really care about the Na'vi's plight and respects them as a people by pushing for the creation of the Bureau if Na'vi Affairs.

[Guardsman Bass]

They have FTL comms.

Yeah, but the FTL comms are pretty pathetic (I think the Source Book mentioned they had a rate of something like 2 bits per hour), and extremely expensive to operate.

Actually, one of the in-route ships arriving to find the whole situation has changed would make for an interesting movie in its own right. A very big significance would probably lie on how the commander of the ship chose to interact with the Na'vi; if he acts like an arrogant ass, then bad shit could go down. On the other hand, if he tries to ameliorate the situation, then things might improve a bit as long as succeeding ships don't return to pound asteroids into Pandora.

[JointStrikeFighter]

2 bits per hour is still more than enough to send a text report of the situation before the next ship arrives.

[NecronLord]

RDA has a bottleneck on the information getting out

No it doesn't. A transmission to Earth is pitifully easy assuming they have any radio equipment designed for surface to orbit broadcast, and given that they marched the RDA forces off, I would assume they took anything the scientists pointed out as useful. As in the scientists could transmit to Earth in a day and assuming Earth bothers to keep a radio telescope pointed at Pandora, it'll work. Hell, it's reasonably likely they would be able to listen to the battle and to the Colonel's orders as they happen. Unless you figure that the Avatar-era's commtech is inferior to early radio which is detectable in other systems and at a poxy four light years, quite easily intelligible. While RDA's combat transmissions should likely be encrypted, it's quite possible the future NSA have the means to break it, and you can be sure it'd be a top priority once the spice unobtanium ceases to flow.

and has already proven itself willing to commit atrocities to increase profits. Their investors just took a massive hit, and as it was pointed out before, greedy corporate filth that get stopped even for a moment from exploiting others for their own profit/amusement quickly become angry corporate filth that now have an axe to grind with the measly plebeians that dared interfere with their obscene flow of wealth.

And by 'massive hit' we may mean 'massive enough to shut them down.'

Since I'm certain future humanity will be exactly as it is now, it would be a trivial thing for RDA's scum-lords spin the information they have a chokehold on, buy off equally greedy and vile politicos, and turn their mercenary dead into "brave fighters that gave their lives to buy our people time to escape," thus giving them a bloody shirt to wave to the mindless populace, (which will eat it up like ambrosia) and get their pawns the government to give them massive bailouts, and back the company militarily.

Bailouts are only going to come if they have to. Nothing stops them just shutting RDA down and giving its rivals the job.

Taking this to it's ultimate conclusion, the Na'vi are doomed. Or, barring total destruction as a race, will be forced to live in preserves as less than second class citizens (if that) while wealthy interests rape their world.

Taking this to its ultimate conclusion, whatever individual vorlonesque alien engineered them in the first place shows up, notices and is unamused, then takes its personal transport to Earth overnight (if FTL comms is possible, so is FTL travel) and casually dismembers their starfleet in seconds, before transmitting with enough power to burn out every receiver on Earth "ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT PANDORA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE."

It seems facetious, but your own scenario is also based on all kinds of insubstantial assumptions about the universe too.

as long as succeeding ships don't return to pound asteroids into Pandora.

They're not going to do that. That's a good way to find yourself hanging from the highest yard in Titan docks when you get home. Oh, and just for bonus, abrogation of the treaties that allow the RDA to exist.

[LaCroix]

I find it funny that people complain about Na'vi being too sexy.

The plot demands it! How else would a human mind find them attractive enough to fall in love? The mind is still human inside the avatar. Sully wouldn't have fallen in love with a giant slug.

[tim31]

I cringed at one review that suggested the sex scene(largely cut) bordered on bestiality. Once people get on their high horse they'll use whatever comes to mind, no matter how stupid it is.

[Spoonist]

Also with the help of the deityTM there could be ways to get to the Unobtainium without resorting to stripmining.

Plus the obvious Amazonas reference with the biological diversity hinting at much grander profits if let alone. The old "We could find the cure for cancer" cliche from movies like Medicine man.

[Cykeisme]

Something to note that is pertinent to various aspects of the discussion.. since Jake's entire consciousness has essentially gone through Eywa and out again, Eywa (or the collective consciousness of dead Na'vi) may know what he knows.

So they might just understand that the humans will take quite a while to come back, but when they do, the Na'vi will eventually unable to resist militarily.
Spoonist's post immediately before this one is a possibility, then.

[JME2]

Finally saw it. Entertaining, but predictable. I enjoyed it, but I wasn't blown away by it.

[Artemas]

One weapon I can see that the company should have requested prior to the film are RPG analogues. Not for the natives, but for the hammerhead elephantoceros and other scary huge primeval montrosities. May have been pretty hard for the first settlers to handle the fauna until they got their 2 meter thick walls and shit up. Even then, unless the mining sites are fortified, there might be a need. Maybe they have magic sonic thingamajigs.

Anyway, if the company is like the various "India" companies, then they may in fact be a de facto government agency, just with lots of the up front costs and problems handled privately. Shareholders are mentioned, though they could be private citizens or large organizations.

Also:

Unobtainium. 500 million dollars, and that's the best they come up with?

[adam_grif]

Unobtainium. 500 million dollars, and that's the best they come up with?

In the grim darkness of the future, inflation doesn't exist.