Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[Coyote]

The UN has a number of flaws inherent in its structure, as well as a number of strengths.

As a strength, it is the only place in the world where places like Senegal or Rwanda have as much voice as the United States, China, or Russia; the "big boys" all have 1 vote on issues just like them. It is an equalizer in that extent.

On the other hand, let's face it the majority of the world's countries are not liberal democracies that (more or less) respect human rights, so the deck is stacked. Sooner or later countries like Sudan or Syria will end up on Human Rights comissions because if those positions are restricte donly to people who (again-- more-or-less) respect human rights, then the baton would be continually handed off among a small coterie of nations and accusations of favoritism or racism would be leveled.

[Simon_Jester]

As for the argument that putting human rights offenders on the committee forces them to confront the issue diplomatically... forces them to confront it how? Forces them to phrase some polite statements about how the guerillas in their country are terrorists and all the people they tortured and killed were aiding rebels or something?

"Forcing" people to issue press releases accomplishes nothing from a human rights standpoint. And forcing them to do it by making them a high-profile member of the committee on human rights makes that committee a laughingstock while still accomplishing nothing.

Take it up with the UN. I'm not trying to justify the way they do things, I am explaining to you that it IS the way they do things. It isn't speculation on my part, it is an established tactic. I don't think it's terribly effective, but then again the UN isn't a terribly effective organization.

Yes, but the point here is that the UN lacks credibility.

It was originally noted that Israel is in violation of a vast number of UN resolutions. The question is whether that tells us that Israel disregards international law more than other countries, and the answer is "no." Unfortunately, UN resolutions condemning a nation are not a reliable guide to how "bad" that nation is, because the UN itself is not a reliable arbiter.

And this unreliability is illustrated by the fact that they give nations like Libya a relatively high profile on what is supposed to be a committee to investigate human rights abuses.

[Einzige]

Shit just got real.

"The U.S. confirmed that an American citizen, identified as 19-year-old Furkan Dogan, was killed by multiple gunshots during the Israeli raid on a flotilla carrying activists attempting to run a blockade of the Gaza Strip.

"State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley said the U.S. has made no decision on a response to Dogan’s death."

How long are traitors who sell out American interests to Israel going to be allowed to masquerade as the Real Patriots?

[wautd]

I hope tomorrows newspaper will finally have an interview with those girls who were on the flotilla. They weren't on the boat with those 9 deaths, yet 3 out of 4 were wounded so I wonder just how brutal the Israelis boarded the more peaceful ships.

[Coyote]

No, the next big news after the American getting shot will be what happens to the MV Rachel Corrie. That is what will set the stage for how this is going to go. As for heads rolling over the death of Dogan, well, no heads rolled after the real Rachel Corrie got killed, so why would Dogan's death make a dent? Not to be cold about it, but...

[Iosef Cross]

The UN has a number of flaws inherent in its structure, as well as a number of strengths.

As a strength, it is the only place in the world where places like Senegal or Rwanda have as much voice as the United States, China, or Russia; the "big boys" all have 1 vote on issues just like them. It is an equalizer in that extent.

Russia is a big boy?

Well, the average Chinese has much less influence than the average Danish, because each country has 1 vote and there are 260 times more people in China. So, UN voting should be proportional to population...

In this case, if China and India teams up, well, the game is over.

[Stark]

Except it's an organisation of nations, and not people, I guess.

[fgalkin]

The UN has a number of flaws inherent in its structure, as well as a number of strengths.

As a strength, it is the only place in the world where places like Senegal or Rwanda have as much voice as the United States, China, or Russia; the "big boys" all have 1 vote on issues just like them. It is an equalizer in that extent.

Russia is a big boy?

Well, the average Chinese has much less influence than the average Danish, because each country has 1 vote and there are 260 times more people in China. So, UN voting should be proportional to population...

In this case, if China and India teams up, well, the game is over.

You seem to be having a problem with Russia lately. Is Brazil a hotbed of Russophobia, or are you one of a kind?

And, yes, it is a big boy. Being the world's second nuclear power, and a major industrial and military powerhouse generally leads to that description.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Sea Skimmer]

Russia is a big boy?

Well, the average Chinese has much less influence than the average Danish, because each country has 1 vote and there are 260 times more people in China. So, UN voting should be proportional to population...

In this case, if China and India teams up, well, the game is over.

Exactly, if it was done that way the UN would fall apart within a day or two and be gone and over with. This is also why the permanent security council nations have vetos. Anything else and the UN would be just as worthless as the league of nations was. The world will take a flawed world forum over no world forum. Its harder to make something like the UN then to break and abolish it.

[Elfdart]

Today's winner for sucking Netanyahu's cock is Rep. Brad Sherman, who not only wants Americans who take part in the relief convoys prosecuted as "terrorists", but is also doing his best impression of Walter Duranty, claiming that there's no malnutrition in Gaza.

How many members of Congress called for those who took part in Brothers to the Rescue to be prosecuted as "terrorists"? After all, the group was supported by Cuban exile thug Jorge Mas Canosa, who also sponsored numerous bombings in Cuba and elsewhere -including the ones carried out by Luis Posada Carriles and Orlando Bosch.

[Simon_Jester]

Russia is a big boy?

They can turn you, personally, into a thin film of carbon on roughly an hour's notice. I consider anyone who can do that to me to be a big boy. I don't know about you; you may be an idiot, for all I know.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Russia is a big boy?

They can turn you, personally, into a thin film of carbon on roughly an hour's notice. I consider anyone who can do that to me to be a big boy. I don't know about you; you may be an idiot, for all I know.

Considering his posting history of rhetoric-filled, substanceless, baseless, and infantile posts, this is just another day, and another moronic statement made by Iosef Cross.

[Grif]

Israeli navy 'shadowing' Rachel Corrie Gaza aid ship
Page last updated at 6:13 GMT, Saturday, 5 June 2010 7:13 UK
E-mail this to a friendPrintable version Activists have said they would not resist Israeli forces
Israeli naval vessels are shadowing the latest aid ship attempting to break its blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Israel says its troops have not boarded the ship, but it has warned it will not let the Irish-owned MV Rachel Corrie reach Gaza.

It comes days after Israeli troops stormed a Gaza-bound aid flotilla. Clashes on board left nine people dead.

That raid brought strong condemnation of Israel, especially from Turkey, from where most of the victims came.

The BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza says it is unclear exactly what is happening but it seems that the ship is being flanked by Israeli naval vessels.

He says the Israeli military is sticking to its position and is insisting that the ship will be diverted to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

The Rachel Corrie is believed to be in international waters, about 35 miles (56km) off the Israeli coast.

The Free Gaza Movement's Mary Hughes Thompson, in Cyprus, told the BBC that Israeli boats were tracking their ship but had not made contact.

She said those on board were feeling "quite euphoric" and were still hoping to go to Gaza.

The activists had earlier said they would not resist any Israeli attempts to stop the ship.

The Rachel Corrie is named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested over house demolitions in Gaza in 2003.

Condemnation
Israel has instructed the ship to dock at Ashdod, promising that the aid will be taken by road to Gaza after the cargo has been inspected for banned items.

Israel has maintained a blockade of Gaza since 2006, tightening it the following year when the Islamist Hamas movement seized control of the territory.

The US urged the activists to do what the Israelis asked. However Irish Nobel peace laureate Mairead Maguire, who is aboard the ship, insisted it would not be diverted.

Activists said there were 20 people on board the Rachel Corrie, including five Irish nationals, six Malaysians and nine crew members.

The ship had been a part of the previous flotilla, but was delayed by technical problems.

The international outcry over Israel's actions when it intercepted the last flotilla has still not abated.

Accounts as to what happened when Israeli soldiers rappelled from helicopters on to the Turkish passenger ship Mavi Marmara in the early hours of Monday differ.

Israel says their commandos were attacked with weapons, including knives, and opened fire in self-defence. Activists say troops shot at them without provocation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10244301.stm

Do you think Israel is going to storm this boat as well? Incidentally, there are 6 Malaysians onboard, and the media here is spinning like crazy that they are some sort of freedom fighter.

[Instant Sunrise]

CNN has a story up on the autopsies of the victims here:

Istanbul, Turkey (CNN) -- Autopsy results by forensics experts in Istanbul revealed that all nine of the men killed by Israeli commandoes aboard the humanitarian convoy that had planned to dock in Gaza died of gunshot wounds.

The autopsy results give clues about how the violence unfolded after Israeli commandoes stormed the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara in the pre-dawn hours on Monday.

Five of the men died with bullet wounds to the head, said Dr. Haluk Ince, the director of Istanbul's Medical Examination Institute, said Friday.

One casualty, a 19-year-old dual national Turkish-American citizen named Furkan Dogan, was found to have bullet wounds in his head and multiple bullets in his body, Ince said.

According to the U.S. State department, Dogan was born in Troy, New York and had been living in Turkey. American diplomats have been extending consular services to the deceased's family.

In one case, Ince said, a gunshot victim had been shot at at extremely close range.

"From the analysis of the bullet distance on one of the bodies," Dr. Ince said, "the gun was fired between 2 and 14 centimeters' distance from the victim's head."

In one month, the forensic report will be submitted to an Istanbul prosecutor's office. There have already been petitions from families of Turkish activists this week, submitted to state prosecutors to sue the government of Israel on charges of murder.

The dead activists were treated like fallen heroes at a mass funeral held at Istanbul's Fatih Mosque on Thursday. Crowds gathered in a courtyard, below the domes of the centuries' old Ottoman mosque, in front of the coffins, which were wrapped in Turkish and Palestinian flags. In one case, a flag from the Palestinian movement Hamas lay over a casket.

"We will remember this, what Israel did," said a young Turkish volunteer named Muhamed Sahin, who was helping hold back the surging crowd. "Everybody has to learn what is going on in Gaza, on the ship, what Israel did."

Periodically, the crowd chanted "Israel, terrorist" and "Damn Israel."

The bodies of the 9 dead, as well as more then 460 surviving passengers from the convoy arrived at Istanbul airport before dawn on Thursday. They were treated to a hero's welcome, particularly Bulent Yildirim, the chairman of the Islamist, fiercely pro-Palestinian Turkish charity the Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH). IHH was one of the main groups organizing the blockade-busting flotilla.

In remarks to the press, Yildirim said his colleagues fought Israeli troops in self-defense aboard the Mavi Marmara. He added that in the early stages of the clashes, his activists captured several Israel commandoes, as well as their weapons, and took them below decks.

The Israeli troops were given water, Yildirim said. He insisted none of the activists fired the captured Israeli guns.

Israeli officials have accused the protesters of firing captured weapons during the battle at sea. The Israeli military has also shown images of a commando being beaten with a plastic chair, as well as photos of knives, metal poles, slingshots and marbles as evidence that the Mavi Marmara was a "ship of hatred" full of terrorist sympathizers rather then a "love boat" filled with peace-loving human rights activists.

"The defense of the boat was quite well organized," said Espen Goffeng, a 38-year-old activist from Norway who sailed aboard the Mavi Marmara. "There was a plan to keep soldiers off the boat."

Goffeng said passengers aboard the lead ship Mavi Marmara at first successfully repelled Israeli troops on boats. Then, he said, soldiers began their helicopters assault on the vessel.

"They started off with some kind of paintball bullets with glass in them that left terrible soft tissue wounds. And then rubber bullets. And then live ammunition afterwards. And that's when things started to get really dangerous," Goffeng added.

Despite the tears and sobbing at Istanbul's Fatih Mosque on Thursday, many of the people gathered for the activists' funeral called this week a "victory," because it brought international attention to Israel's 3-year blockade of Gaza.

Turkey, once Israel's closest Muslim ally in the Middle East, has accused Israel of committing an act of international piracy.

"From now on, Turkish-Israeli ties will never be the same," Turkish President Abdullah Gul said on Thursday. "The incident has left a deep and irreparable scar."

According to a spokesman for the Turkish Foreign Ministry, Ankara has issued 3 demands to Israel: apologize for the raid, organize an independent investigation, and lift the blockade of Gaza.

Bold and underlining mine.

I would think that if IDF soldiers were defending themselves in the dead of night, they would be aiming for the center of mass, and not for the head, and in the one case, not at that close of a range.

I really have my doubts that these soldiers were 100% defending themselves.

EDIT: to clarify, some of the deaths probably were from the soldiers defending themselves in the heat of the moment. However, I have my doubts about the 5 that ere shot in the head, and I REALLY have doubts about the one who was shot in the head at point blank range.

[Stark]

Since the defenders were armed with sticks, its not impossible that they'd be shot in the head or at close range, since an IDF guy out of stick range would just aim and fire. It's not like they were in any danger.

[Kuroji]

Five of them shot in the head, though? That smells more like outright execution to me.

[CJvR]

Five of them shot in the head, though? That smells more like outright execution to me.

Xcept in an outright execution you would only have one head shot.

[wautd]

Today's winner for sucking Netanyahu's cock is Rep. Brad Sherman, who not only wants Americans who take part in the relief convoys prosecuted as "terrorists", but is also doing his best impression of Walter Duranty, claiming that there's no malnutrition in Gaza.
.

Speaking of terrorism, did Israel finally showed some evidence that Freedom Flotilla had terrorist ties to Al-Qaida or does it remain with baseless claims?

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Just a tib-bit. At higher levels of military training you are actually trained to aim for the head if only because it's a much better killing shot especially in CQB.

[MKSheppard]

Xcept in an outright execution you would only have one head shot.

Yes; it seems that the IDF troopers fell back onto their training for CQB; in which "subdue" means shoot someone in the head at least twice as you pass them; so they can't get up and attack you after you've passed.

[Stark]

So you mean 'murder civilians and then manufacture a quickly dismissed lie about weapons'?

[Ace Pace]

Five of them shot in the head, though? That smells more like outright execution to me.

This might make sense, except that the Israeli commandos are probably better trained than your average soldier and might be more used to aiming for the head.

[MKSheppard]

I've been doing some flipping around; and the current Turkish PM; Erdogan, has been trying to tilt Turkey away from the West/Israel since he took power.

But Erdogan's recent comments on HAMAS give the Israelis a big opening to make pain:

Link

Hamas is not a terrorist organization, it is a resistance movement, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared on Friday at a rally in the Turkish province of Konya, according to local daily Hurriyet.

Erdogan reportedly said Hamas, the legitimate winner of the Palestinian elections, was fighting for its land. "You are always talking about democracy. You’ll never let Hamas rule. What kind of democracy is this?” he reportedly said, apparently addressing the Israeli leadership.

“I do not think that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Erdogan was quoted as saying. "They are Palestinians in resistance, fighting for their own land."

Clearly, what Israel can do if this escalates a bit further is to recognize the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) as a legimitate government (hey, they recognize PLO even though it has no power), and begin supporting it. Because after all, the PKK are "Kurds in resistance to the Turkish occupiers, fighting for their own land." to borrow a phrase from Erdogan.

[Ritterin Sophia]

This might make sense, except that the Israeli commandos are probably better trained than your average soldier and might be more used to aiming for the head.

'Israel' and 'better trained' go together like 'supersonic' and 'helicopter gunship'. The IDF is a joke in comparison to other western fighting forces, the Ground Component just happens to be slightly less incompetent than the IAF or the Navy.

[CJvR]

Erdogan reportedly said Hamas, the legitimate winner of the Palestinian elections, was fighting for its land. "You are always talking about democracy. You’ll never let Hamas rule. What kind of democracy is this?” he reportedly said, apparently addressing the Israeli leadership.

Well just because someone is democraticly elected doesn't mean the rest of us have to be nice to them. Particulary not if they are a terror sponsoring war party like Hamas. The rest of us have democracy too and if we don't want anything to do with Hamas that is as much our right as the Gazaites had the right to vote for Hamas. The Palestinians voted for war, not much we can do about that...