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Eevin wrote: There is a little of that conduct in barbed penises (add snakes and insects to the list). They help to get better hold and... errr... stimulation of the female. And who knows, maybe demons are more resistant, or masochists, or something like that.

What may be highly painful/damaging to a human female may simply be "ribbed for her pleasure" to a female demon.

What's the Internet rule? If it exists, there is porn of it. In this environment, it probably won't be long before demon porn shows up on the Internet. Find a 2nd lifer who is/was into S&M and pay him/her to be videotaped having sex with a demon.

And imagine the trouble a demon would have pondering human ideas of morality.

1. Rape is an SOP fringe benefit.
2. Humans invade Hell. Told rape is immoral and must stop at once.
3. Some human offers to pay you to have sex, but pretend it's rape while doing it.

A demon might well become an alcoholic trying to figure that one out.

bcoogler wrote:What's the Internet rule? If it exists, there is porn of it. In this environment, it probably won't be long before demon porn shows up on the Internet. Find a 2nd lifer who is/was into S&M and pay him/her to be videotaped having sex with a demon.

Rule 34 is a bitch. And while it has no bearing on the plot, I'm willing to bet that there's a Luga sex tape floating around -- even if they used CG in postproduction to make the stuntwoman look like Luga because Luga herself wasn't willing to participate.

darksoul wrote: I`m not quite sure I follow with the religious fanatics bit. What fanatics are these? the Jellies and the second lifers in Heavens?

Thinking particularly of the second-lifers. There are a lot of them... and once they've done a little research on a few insurgency tricks, occupying heaven could start to look like occupying the entire middle east several times over. A few jellies might get involved too, lending portal capacity etc. (although there are probably nephilim in heaven besides) to make it more painful.

The latter of which I`m on the verge to label traitors, as unfair as it is. if I were a soldier in Heaven and one of those guys as much as try to throw a rock at me, I would perform an anatomical experiment on him: Cut all members with machine gun fire and expect them to grow back.

Do something that sadistic to one, and you'll inspire untold more to do something rather more than picking up a rock.

Edward Yee wrote: and give you a M114. (Wasn't the M115 its carbine variant?)

The M114 is the civilian M1A rechambered for .458 Winchester.

The M115 is the M1 Garand rechambered for .458 Winchester.

Both weapons exist in parallel because production lines for both exist to supply the civilian market and its quicker to accept both weapons than convert one line to produce the other weapon. The M114 is usually issued to military personnel while the M115 goes to US Volunteers, Hell-based insurgent groups etc.

kulervo wrote: Not sure if this is what Stuart was going for, but there are several species out there with a barbed phallus. Example: domestic cats have a series of spines on them. When the male is done and pulls out the scratching induces ovulation. Nature has some crazy forms. Don't even ask about the insects. Brain Bleach.

Mayabird wrote:There are a number of spiny penises in the animal kingdom, including a number of monkey species, IIRC. There was a diagram in one of my college textbooks on animal behavior of various really freaky penises in different species. It's thought that they're an evolutionary response to promiscuity - make the first round of sex painful and damaging to the female so she's not inclined to do it again, thus ensuring that the first male is the father of the offspring. This is all from memory though because I don't have that book on hand so I may be a bit off.

As for baldricks? We are talking about a situation where there may have been a lot of selective breeding and genetic alterations and "god did it" could be a legitimate answer. It could be that it happened because someone was feeling like being the multiverse's biggest jerk one day.

Well, I mean, I already knew that tomcats had barbed penises, and frankly I thought that was where Stuart initially got the idea, too. Hell, I know of plenty of animal species with copulation tactics which are far better not to think about, and like Mayabird said, such a design on the demons' peckers could even be literally an "act of God".

What I was really getting at, since I wrote that sentence in the context of Edward Yee's spiel about demons discovering porn....is, if their peckers are supposedly barbed, how are the poor Baldricks supposed to fuck their palms to it?

Ascaloth wrote:

kulervo wrote: Well, I mean, I already knew that tomcats had barbed penises, and frankly I thought that was where Stuart initially got the idea, too. Hell, I know of plenty of animal species with copulation tactics which are far better not to think about, and like Mayabird said, such a design on the demons' peckers could even be literally an "act of God".

What I was really getting at, since I wrote that sentence in the context of Edward Yee's spiel about demons discovering porn....is, if their peckers are supposedly barbed, how are the poor Baldricks supposed to fuck their palms to it?

Well, that depends on where the barbs are, don't it ? IIRC, in cats the spikes (which are really stiffened hairs) are at the base of the penis. Ah, managed to find a picture. Yep, they're around the base. Anyway, I'd think that if the spikes didn't cover the main shaft, but were at the base or near the tip, a daemon could manage a hand job just fine. Also, it's not clear to me that all male daemons have barbs. There's that scene where Eurayle was getting Belial off with her tail, and if he has a barbed penis, she didn't have any problem with it.

[R_H] wrote:How about a World in Conflict mod. Sweet demon-annihilating RTS goodness.

Weren't Abigor's tactics just a couple steps up from a Zerg rush?

Eddie Van Helsing wrote: Weren't Abigor's tactics just a couple steps up from a Zerg rush?

No way (assuming I have the 'Zerg Rush' right - my only knowledge of the matter comes from a psoter who titled herself "Zerg Princess" which struck me as indicative of a self-image problem. But. . . .

Abigor's army worked by a carefully thought-out and highly disciplined operational art. Essentially it was the same kind of combined arms tactics that were used by Alexander (think of Abigor as Alexander in a strategic ability sense and you're not far out). The central phalanxes pinned down the hostile army while the heavy cavalry charged at the critical point and ripped a hole in the line. That would leave the rest of the enemy force pinned down with nowhere to go. One the hostile army started to disintegrate, the harpies and heavy cavalry would pursue and harrow it. For the kind of war and enemy Abigor was expecting to fight, it was a very deadly combination.

When he learned how his flanks had been destroyed, he realized the tactical implications almost immediately and spread his army out so he could envelop the enemy. Then, once the enemy line was enevloped it could be crushed by his cavalry. That's a major jump forward in tactical sense. The problem was, he had stretched his army outside his immediate range of control and that gave him a serious problem that he couldn't overcome.

The daemonic armies were never incompetent or their commanders stupid. For their time and technology level they were really good. As late as the American Civil War or even WW1, Abigor's Army would have given a human army a dreadful thrashing. They wree just a century too late.

Eddie Van Helsing wrote:

[R_H] wrote:How about a World in Conflict mod. Sweet demon-annihilating RTS goodness.

Weren't Abigor's tactics just a couple steps up from a Zerg rush?

Hey now, I'm sure they managed to scratch some paint. Keep in mind they didn't go down so easily against infantry and I doubt it would be much fun in Humvees either.

Stuart wrote:

Eddie Van Helsing wrote: Weren't Abigor's tactics just a couple steps up from a Zerg rush?

No way (assuming I have the 'Zerg Rush' right - my only knowledge of the matter comes from a psoter who titled herself "Zerg Princess" which struck me as indicative of a self-image problem. But. . . .

Abigor's army worked by a carefully thought-out and highly disciplined operational art. Essentially it was the same kind of combined arms tactics that were used by Alexander (think of Abigor as Alexander in a strategic ability sense and you're not far out). The central phalanxes pinned down the hostile army while the heavy cavalry charged at the critical point and ripped a hole in the line. That would leave the rest of the enemy force pinned down with nowhere to go. One the hostile army started to disintegrate, the harpies and heavy cavalry would pursue and harrow it. For the kind of war and enemy Abigor was expecting to fight, it was a very deadly combination.

Yes, you're right. Since the thread had veered towards possible realtime strategy game tie-ins, I had mentioned the rush tactic popularized by StarCraft players as the "Zerg Rush". It's not that much different from a human wave attack. Since Abigor wasn't simply throwing massed demon infantry at defended positions, Abigor's methods would certainly be a cut above the Zerg Rush or a human wave attack since he also had cavalry and even limited air support.

Hell has the Portal of Minos, a mysterious place where souls enter Hell.
Heaven has that bottomless lake in the middle of Yahweh's old palace.

Am I the only one thinking that there's some sort of connection?

Stuart wrote:When he learned how his flanks had been destroyed, he realized the tactical implications almost immediately and spread his army out so he could envelop the enemy. Then, once the enemy line was enevloped it could be crushed by his cavalry. That's a major jump forward in tactical sense. The problem was, he had stretched his army outside his immediate range of control and that gave him a serious problem that he couldn't overcome.

One thing I'd noticed was that somehow he didn't think of this "overstretch" until during the actual fighting, which I'd thought was a fault.

MysteriousDarkLordv3 wrote:Hell has the Portal of Minos, a mysterious place where souls enter Hell.
Heaven has that bottomless lake in the middle of Yahweh's old palace.

Am I the only one thinking that there's some sort of connection?

You know that the "bottomless" part is hyperbole, right? The lake was mentioned to be too deep for standard shipboard sensors to gauge the distance to the bottom, doesn't mean it doesn't have a bottom. There are places on Earth deep enough not to be adequately gauged with shipboard sonar, too, and they're certainly not literally bottomless.

EDIT: Reading back, they didn't even use the term "bottomless." Behold the actual quote:

Patheocide, Chapter 80 wrote:"Fresh water as expected, buoyancy compensation as calculated. We're stable. No sign of organic contamination. The environmental people are taking samples now. Preliminary analysis should be through soon. Sonar room reports . . . . " Sophia's voice hesitated. "Sir, they can't find the bottom. The echo sounder shows no returns. Whatever this lake is, it's deep."

Edward Yee wrote:One thing I'd noticed was that somehow he didn't think of this "overstretch" until during the actual fighting, which I'd thought was a fault.

It's actually historically correct. The fact that the size of battles had increased to the point where a single general could not control all of his forces personally was the big command shock of the late 18th and early-mid 19th century. Napoleon was the first General to really think about the problem (most of his battles were won in the final analysis because he came up with partial solutions) and Grant was the first one to really solve it. So, you can't blame poor Abigor for that, he was fighting in entirely new mental terrain and there was no reason why he should have realized the problems he was letting himself in for. Remember he came up with his solutions literally overnight. His flanks were both kicked in one day and he was launching his own major assault the next. He changed styles in a few hours and for all his problems he came close to pulling it off. Hit was a near-run thing.

Stuart wrote:So, you can't blame poor Abigor for that, he was fighting in entirely new mental terrain and there was no reason why he should have realized the problems he was letting himself in for. Remember he came up with his solutions literally overnight. His flanks were both kicked in one day and he was launching his own major assault the next. He changed styles in a few hours and for all his problems he came close to pulling it off. Hit was a near-run thing.

I was discussing TSW with someone online, and as I pointed out there's a REASON that Abigor was elected to be the supreme commander of the armies of hell. In a dimension that's known warfare for ten thousand years, he's the best general they have.

Yeah, if anything, Abigors ability to observe the 'what' of the battlefield and come up with tactical and strategic fixes so quickly, even without knowing the 'how' or 'why' is probably one of the big stretches of the battles in Iraq. He skipped many centuries of brutal lessons in hours after all.

But its all good.

Still, I have to think that it would be awesome to see Demon Clans forming up in Hell with the new Call of Duty and swapping places with human Clans in multiplayer combat

Edward Yee wrote:One thing I'd noticed was that somehow he didn't think of this "overstretch" until during the actual fighting, which I'd thought was a fault.

He didn't expect to get his ass kicked so badly until it happened.

Hey Stuart quick question just to make things more clear.

Does Telepathy and Succubi ability to effect our brains work based on quantum entanglement, or does it work based on them being able to generate EMP/an electrical/radio wave?

Is the telepathy an electromagnetic phenomena in and of itself?

Edward Yee wrote: One thing I'd noticed was that somehow he didn't think of this "overstretch" until during the actual fighting, which I'd thought was a fault.

There are plenty of examples of similar errors among modern generals. You don't have as much control in battle as it would seem. Events develop a momentum that is difficult to counter.

Ilya Muromets wrote:You know that the "bottomless" part is hyperbole, right? The lake was mentioned to be too deep for standard shipboard sensors to gauge the distance to the bottom, doesn't mean it doesn't have a bottom. There are places on Earth deep enough not to be adequately gauged with shipboard sonar, too, and they're certainly not literally bottomless.

EDIT: Reading back, they didn't even use the term "bottomless." Behold the actual quote:

Patheocide, Chapter 80 wrote:"Fresh water as expected, buoyancy compensation as calculated. We're stable. No sign of organic contamination. The environmental people are taking samples now. Preliminary analysis should be through soon. Sonar room reports . . . . " Sophia's voice hesitated. "Sir, they can't find the bottom. The echo sounder shows no returns. Whatever this lake is, it's deep."

The lake in Heaven sounds like Lake Baikal on crack. You can't use sonar to detect the bottom of that lake (I believe they had to use bathyspheres) and that lake is REALLY well oxygenated for its enormous depth. If they want to find the bottom of the Heaven lake, they'll probably sail out to just above the shelf where the Lake drops into the depths (though it sounds like it's shaped like an inverted mesa) and start sending bathyspheres down there. I know there are guys out there that would LOVE to hold the record for the deepest freshwater dive in that lake, which you can't really do on Earth anymore, as the Russians have that pretty well settled.

Of course, who knows what sea serpents may lurk in the nameless dark depths.

Jamesfirecat wrote:Does Telepathy and Succubi ability to effect our brains work based on quantum entanglement, or does it work based on them being able to generate EMP/an electrical/radio wave? Is the telepathy an electromagnetic phenomena in and of itself?

It's basically electromagnetic but it uses a mechanism that works rather like quantum entanglement to project thoughts into a brain. For example, a succubus can create a desired visual image of herself and project that into the brain of the victim so that said victim believes he is seeing the picture so envisaged. Or, the succubus can create a sound (like speech) so that the victim thinks it can hear those words. To somebody not aware of the power, they can't tell the difference between really hearing the voice and thinking they do. Hence all those poor people who got locked up for "hearing voices"

The power does not allow succubae or any other daemon to read minds. They can't read the thoughts in another person's minds, they can only implant their own (hence the term possession traditionally applied to daemonic powers in this area, not daemonic control). Also, they can't compel a given physical action. For example, they can create the image in somebody;s mind that an approaching person is a horrible hideous and aggressive monster but they can't control that victim to take out a gun and shoot it. The most they can do is create an illusion of a situation where pulling out a gun and shooting it would be a good idea. If their victim decides to run away instead, there's nothing they can do about it.

Didn't they paralyze the conspiracy nutter in the first book, and force him to watch the news so they could laugh at the destruction watching through his eyes?

Careful about terminology, Stu.

Things that are "quantum entangled" means that you've got some quantum scale object for which you can't describe without commenting on other parts of the system, even if they are spatially separated. That's where the spooky action at a distance that Einstein was talking about comes from. For example, say you make a particle pair and they can have an eigenvalue of spin up and spin down. By selection rules, if one is spin up, the other MUST be spin down to conserve angular momentum. Now take these particles and separate them without measuring either. Without measuring them, you don't know if they are spin up or spin down, in fact, they are both in superposition. Then you measure one. You've got a fifty fifty odds of getting up or down on the first measure. If you get spin up, the other MUST be spin down even though you didn't measure the particles spin state. In fact, when you measure it, it definitely will be spin down every time no matter how far away it is (if you somehow put the particle on the other side of the galaxy, it remains entangled). That's what it means for two things to be quantum entangled.

This cannot be used to transmit any information, sadly. It being an electromagnetic effect, however, makes sense since the brain is at heart an electric device.

Stuart wrote:

Jamesfirecat wrote:Does Telepathy and Succubi ability to effect our brains work based on quantum entanglement, or does it work based on them being able to generate EMP/an electrical/radio wave? Is the telepathy an electromagnetic phenomena in and of itself?

It's basically electromagnetic but it uses a mechanism that works rather like quantum entanglement to project thoughts into a brain. For example, a succubus can create a desired visual image of herself and project that into the brain of the victim so that said victim believes he is seeing the picture so envisaged. Or, the succubus can create a sound (like speech) so that the victim thinks it can hear those words. To somebody not aware of the power, they can't tell the difference between really hearing the voice and thinking they do. Hence all those poor people who got locked up for "hearing voices"

The power does not allow succubae or any other daemon to read minds. They can't read the thoughts in another person's minds, they can only implant their own (hence the term possession traditionally applied to daemonic powers in this area, not daemonic control). Also, they can't compel a given physical action. For example, they can create the image in somebody;s mind that an approaching person is a horrible hideous and aggressive monster but they can't control that victim to take out a gun and shoot it. The most they can do is create an illusion of a situation where pulling out a gun and shooting it would be a good idea. If their victim decides to run away instead, there's nothing they can do about it.

Okay thank you, how would you respond to the following claim then?

"After some thinking and a large amount of research I have reached this conclusion on the telepathic powers of the baldricks and angels. The succubi use emp/chemical powers to make people like them and see and smell them differnetly. The chemicals they emit block and activate certain receptors to give off an air likeabiltiy e.g block the rude enzymes and release the good time enzymes. The emp powers mess with the electric impulses in our brain which analyze the data coming in from our eyes, noses, and other senses. Now to protect against this you need a faraday cage like a tin foil hat although silver and bronze work better aluminum will block %60 percent of the emp so probably best to double wrap. This is not the problem, The problem is that all the ways to create an EMP of that magnitude (able to affect the brain an organic computer) are deadly to humans and would fry ANY electrical device without the best protection available. The way to create EMP that strong would require Neutron and Gamma radiation or a High Powered Microwave. The lowest deadly dose for the radiation would kill a human in 24 hours, The microwave....well do you know what happens when you put a mouse in the microwave? It explodes. There are other ways to create an EMP but they would not be powerful enough to affect the human mind. So in conclusion if the baldricks who use their EMP powers to plant an image(Hot chick), suggestion(Kill),smell(perfume), or thought(Lay Down and Die) into a human, must be emitting deadly radiation which can be countered with a tin foil hat but whatever your so poisoned you'll be dead in less than a day, or microwaves where it would be worse if you put on a tin foil hat."

Jamesfirecat wrote:

Stuart wrote:

Jamesfirecat wrote:Does Telepathy and Succubi ability to effect our brains work based on quantum entanglement, or does it work based on them being able to generate EMP/an electrical/radio wave? Is the telepathy an electromagnetic phenomena in and of itself?

It's basically electromagnetic but it uses a mechanism that works rather like quantum entanglement to project thoughts into a brain. For example, a succubus can create a desired visual image of herself and project that into the brain of the victim so that said victim believes he is seeing the picture so envisaged. Or, the succubus can create a sound (like speech) so that the victim thinks it can hear those words. To somebody not aware of the power, they can't tell the difference between really hearing the voice and thinking they do. Hence all those poor people who got locked up for "hearing voices"

The power does not allow succubae or any other daemon to read minds. They can't read the thoughts in another person's minds, they can only implant their own (hence the term possession traditionally applied to daemonic powers in this area, not daemonic control). Also, they can't compel a given physical action. For example, they can create the image in somebody;s mind that an approaching person is a horrible hideous and aggressive monster but they can't control that victim to take out a gun and shoot it. The most they can do is create an illusion of a situation where pulling out a gun and shooting it would be a good idea. If their victim decides to run away instead, there's nothing they can do about it.

Okay thank you, how would you respond to the following claim then?

"After some thinking and a large amount of research I have reached this conclusion on the telepathic powers of the baldricks and angels. The succubi use emp/chemical powers to make people like them and see and smell them differnetly. The chemicals they emit block and activate certain receptors to give off an air likeabiltiy e.g block the rude enzymes and release the good time enzymes. The emp powers mess with the electric impulses in our brain which analyze the data coming in from our eyes, noses, and other senses. Now to protect against this you need a faraday cage like a tin foil hat although silver and bronze work better aluminum will block %60 percent of the emp so probably best to double wrap. This is not the problem, The problem is that all the ways to create an EMP of that magnitude (able to affect the brain an organic computer) are deadly to humans and would fry ANY electrical device without the best protection available. The way to create EMP that strong would require Neutron and Gamma radiation or a High Powered Microwave. The lowest deadly dose for the radiation would kill a human in 24 hours, The microwave....well do you know what happens when you put a mouse in the microwave? It explodes. There are other ways to create an EMP but they would not be powerful enough to affect the human mind. So in conclusion if the baldricks who use their EMP powers to plant an image(Hot chick), suggestion(Kill),smell(perfume), or thought(Lay Down and Die) into a human, must be emitting deadly radiation which can be countered with a tin foil hat but whatever your so poisoned you'll be dead in less than a day, or microwaves where it would be worse if you put on a tin foil hat."

I barely remember the early explanations of TSW:Armageddon on the matter, but i believe that quantum entanglement was used as an analogy rather than as a fact. The mechanism has always being thought as electromagnetic radiation, the problem being on transmitting such radiation from other dimensions. If it wasn`t and quantum entanglement was used as the actual explanation of the phenomena, it could always be retconned to be EMP and thus saving us another logical gap.

As for the strength required to affect the human brain... well, I don`t believe that anywhere in the books the process of being dominated by a daemon is stated as healthy. It may very well be that people influenced develop other health problems as a result.

Maybe the radiation doesn`t need to be that strong, but rather it needs to be precise. What is affecting in this scenario? Disrupting all brainwaves? or maybe just one or two specific impulses in the brain, weaker than what we have measured and therefore easier to tamper with?

It occurs to me that, the fact that the EMP is a radiation that is emitted in all directions, how do caelis do to focus on a single person without their influence being noted by anyone else near the target? Maybe the propagation is different because of the dimensional rift? Which we know shouldn`t be, since the Predator transmitted images through the Hellgate in that first flight flawlessly. then again, possesion doesn`t happen through a gate.
Just shooting in the dark here, I don`t have the phenomena all that well thought out.

I am however interested in clarifying the extent of the possibilities of daemonic possesion. throughout the books there has been some instances of people utterly controlled by daemons. Does that have something to do with those people being nephilim and thus more susceptible, or can it happen to everyone? And if daemons can only suggest feelings and sensations to direct actions, then they weren`t completely controlling these people?