How does Voyager stay stable on ground?

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RThurmont
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Post by RThurmont »

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that all starships have planetary landing capabilities, but rather, that a specialized subset (express passenger spacecraft, troop transports, and heavy lifters) have that capability.
You're thinking strictly in terms of feature set, and not in terms of the practical nuts-and-bolts design decisions that have to be made in order to make this possible. In order to design a spacecraft to withstand ground landings, you must make massive changes to its structure. You also have to deal with the fact that you are wasting huge amounts of energy dropping an entire ship into a gravity well and then raising it out again when you really only need to move a tiny fraction of that ship's mass. These design changes cannot realistically be inconsequential, nor can they be without cost and compromise to the core function of the ship. Any time you add a feature within a spaceframe of a given size and cost, you must compromise something else, and this is no small feature.
The question of how feasible it would be to incorporate this feature, I would argue, is to a certain extent dependent on the design of a typical spacecraft in the context that we're talking about. Now if we move to the Star Wars universe, where most spacecraft seem to have awesome capabilities in terms of acceleration, one could assume that the typical spacecraft would already have sufficient engines to be able to make a planetary landing. Thus, the challenge of the gravity well is negated. In Star Trek, where starships are considerably less powerful, this becomes more of a point. in Star Wars, at any rate, all you would have to worry about, theoretically, would be aerodynamics, heat shielding and landing gear, and from the appearance of their spacecraft, it doesn't even look like they worry about that much, but instead rely on their shielding systems to deal with atmospheric friction. In Star Trek, shielding is presumably good enough to handle re-entry as well, since we've seen the original Enterprise operating at moderate altitudes on Earth, and clearly that ship's hull is less than optimal in terms of aerodynamics.

So clearly, in the Star Trek universe, the question shifts to one of how powerful their propulsion systems are. If the impulse engines of the "typical" Federation starship are not powerful enough to propel that starship from the surface to an orbit of an Earth-type planet, then I would agree with your above point. If they are, however, bearing in mind the well-demonstrated ability of standard Federation shielding to withstand re-entry and atmospheric friction, I would argue that compromises needed to adapt certain types of specialized starships for planetary landings would be "worth it." The design challenges would primarily be in terms of arriving at the optimal configuration to allow for easy landing and efficient loading and unloading of cargo.

If you take ST-style shielding or powerful engines out of the equation, however, then the feasibility of planetary landings for large spacecraft is obviously reduced.
It's not just a safety issue; it's a "jack of all trades, master of none" issue. Dilution of design goals is historically one of the biggest blunders typically made by managers in charge of an engineering project, and the ability to land the entire ship is a design goal which works directly against other design goals such as maximum efficiency for space travel and combat.
That's perfectly valid. However, ultimately, the question becomes, is it worth the cost of compromised performance and increased manufacturing costs to have a single starship be able to carry a payload from the surface of one planet to the surface of another, without needing the services of a docking station and/or a flotilla of shuttlecraft. In my previous post I outlined three applications for this approach (and one can easily think of others where it could have some use), so I would argue that the question is ultimately whether or not its economically and technically feasible to create a dedicated spacecraft for those purposes.
Sci-fi is chock-a-block with "jack of all trades" designs or "jack of all trades" weapons, and I find it both tiresome and unrealistic. When performance is king, you need to specialize. Nobody is out there trying to build a race car which doubles as a stretch limousine, despite the fact that you could probably think of many uses for this feature.
Performance is relevant in the context of looking at how well a specific design is meeting its objectives. Thus, the shift away from companies talking about how technically excellent their products are, towards how those products help the buyer accomplish their objectives.

Also, while a limousine doubling as a race car is an amusing take on compromised design, I would point out the recent spate of "crossover" vehicles which are designed to combine the best aspects of different classes of automobiles into a single product. You have cars and SUVs fused in products like the Ford Edge, and you have sports cars and luxury cars fused in the growing category of four-door coupes. Then there's the Maybach, which (according to one of their spokesman during the unveiling in 2002) could outperform some Ferraris with its 12 cylinder engine, but which is otherwise one of the largest and most luxurious passenger cars on the market. And I did once see a Masserati stretch limo being driven through downtown Burbank...

So in general while I agree with you that seriously compromising a design to achieve planetary landings would be a bad idea, I think that quite possibly, given the level of technology in Star Trek, and certainly given the apparent level of sophistication of Star Wars spacecraft, that in those environments, the level of compromise would not be serious.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Braedley wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Braedley wrote:As far as I can tell, the reason for Intrepid class ships being able to land is two part. 1: emergencies a la Star Trek: Generations. Since the saucer section doesn't detach (or at least hasn't been shown to be able to detach), there should be a mechanism for the ship to land, should it become necessary. This, of course would imply that the ship shouldn't be able to take off again, but that's beside the point. 2: Intrepids are designed (supposedly) to be deep space vessels. Sometimes this means months or even years away from space dock. The warp coils can't easily be overhauled in the middle of space, so the only other option would be to land the ship.
Unfortunately, an emergency landing situation is not likely one which will allow a nicely controlled descent. In fact, in one episode we see the ship actually crashing on a planetary surface (one of those nice little reset-button episodes, of course).

The other point actually makes no sense. If overhauling massive components like warp coils would not be easy in space, it would be impossible on a planetary surface. Try doing that sort of work in a 1g environment without shipyard facilities to manage the heavy lifting. And if an overhaul would not require actually removing any part of the warp drive, then landing the ship to do the work is redundant; you may as well just hang in orbit.
You give good points, so let me explain myself a little further. In an episode of Voyager, Janeway actually lands the ship in order to carry out a much needed warp coil overhaul. Shuttles are shown as being used as cranes, something which would probably need to be done if the overhaul were to take place in space anyways. So it comes down to the pros and cons of each location. Lets assume for the moment that one method of replacing the warp coils involves lifting the segments straight up out of the nacelles, as was shown in this particular episode.

So on a planet, more force needs to be exerted in order to remove the coils, but the removed coils can simply be placed on the ground next to the ship in order to be worked on. Workers also don't need environmental suits in order to perform the work. The presence of gravity also means that when the time comes to place the warp coils back into the nacelles, the coils just have to be lifted in a manner that will allow gravity to properly align them in the vertical direction. Then steps just have to be taken to rotate them into the proper orientation.
And... they can't use tractor beams while hanging in space to do any of this?
In space, everything needs to be tethered, or brought inside. The sections of plating that cover the nacelles need to be stored somewhere during this operation, and it's already been shown that the shuttle bays wouldn't be large enough for this, therefore, a tractor beam would need to be used at least periodically in order to keep the pieces from flying away for the week or so that it takes to overhaul the engines. More care also needs to be taken in order not to damage the coils when they are reinserted into the nacelles, as they can't simply be dropped in place. Notice how I haven't even mentioned performing the work on the coils. The work could be performed in space, but that's more tethering, enviro suits, etc. The work can't really be done in the shuttle bay, as active shuttle operations are still ongoing because they are needed as cranes. The only other option is to beam the segments into a cargo bay. Let me also remind everyone that we have no idea if the segments would fit inside either the shuttle bay or a cargo bay.
No, a tractor beam would not be needed to periodically keep the pieces from flying away; there is no reason for anything to simply fly away on its own from the ship once it's position relative to the ship is stabilised. The only reason anything would fly away is if momentum is imparted to it. Furthermore, doing this kind of work within a gravity well is only going to increase, not decrease, the chances of damage because of misalignment. You also overlook the fact that Federation envirosuits do have extravehicular manoeuvering units (ST:TMP) and that space workers have never required tethering due to their EMUs. Shuttlepods with tractors can also facilitate reinstallation of warp coils with a smooth alignment into the spaceframe.
To me it seems that performing this type of work in space is more trouble than it's worth.
That's because you're really not thinking this problem all the way through: moving large masses around in a gravity well is always going to be far more problematic than moving them around in zero-g.
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Post by Junghalli »

RThurmont wrote:So clearly, in the Star Trek universe, the question shifts to one of how powerful their propulsion systems are.
FYI if a ship can manage a sustained acceleration of more than 9.81 m/s^2 (1 G) then its engine is powerful enough to push it out of the gravity well of Earth. In practice if you were designing a landing-capable spacecraft you'd probably want an acceleration of at least 15-20 m/s^2 to give you a decent margin and allow you to take off from higher gravity planets.
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Post by Darth Wong »

RThurmont wrote:To be clear, I'm not suggesting that all starships have planetary landing capabilities, but rather, that a specialized subset (express passenger spacecraft, troop transports, and heavy lifters) have that capability.
In other words, ships specialized to land on planets. I don't have a problem with that; my problem is primarily with the kind of ships we typically see in Star Wars: capital warships. Obviously, if a ship's primary function involves landing on a planetary surface, it makes sense to design it accordingly. But adding it as a secondary function onto a spacecraft whose primary function is exploration or space combat is retarded.
Also, while a limousine doubling as a race car is an amusing take on compromised design, I would point out the recent spate of "crossover" vehicles which are designed to combine the best aspects of different classes of automobiles into a single product. You have cars and SUVs fused in products like the Ford Edge, and you have sports cars and luxury cars fused in the growing category of four-door coupes.
True. However, those vehicles don't exactly push the envelope in terms of what they can do. A space combat vehicle must do so if it is to survive against hostile enemies, hence the use of a racecar in my analogy.
Then there's the Maybach, which (according to one of their spokesman during the unveiling in 2002) could outperform some Ferraris with its 12 cylinder engine, but which is otherwise one of the largest and most luxurious passenger cars on the market. And I did once see a Masserati stretch limo being driven through downtown Burbank...
Surely you don't actually believe that these bastardized show-off vehicles would perform on par with real sports cars.
So in general while I agree with you that seriously compromising a design to achieve planetary landings would be a bad idea, I think that quite possibly, given the level of technology in Star Trek, and certainly given the apparent level of sophistication of Star Wars spacecraft, that in those environments, the level of compromise would not be serious.
It would be if it's a secondary function. Sure, if the ship is a troop transport, it might make sense to have the whole thing land. But if it's a capital warship, it's not like you have the kind of design breathing room that you do in the consumer market. Weaken its combat capabilities and you die, so any compromise to its core function had better be worth it, and this one isn't.
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Post by RThurmont »

In other words, ships specialized to land on planets. I don't have a problem with that; my problem is primarily with the kind of ships we typically see in Star Wars: capital warships. Obviously, if a ship's primary function involves landing on a planetary surface, it makes sense to design it accordingly. But adding it as a secondary function onto a spacecraft whose primary function is exploration or space combat is retarded.
I agree. Now, ISD (or Voyager) style capital warships aside, one could see the usefulness for small to medium combat spacecraft capable of planetary landings in a defensive role, assuming that you could base them out of concealed silos and launch them in an ICBM-esque manner in the event of an enemy assualt, but again, this would be a specialized function. It is also possible that in some situation such specialized Planetary Launch Assualt Vehicles (to invent a new ship class) would form the larger portion of a given military space fleet, such as in situations where infrastructure was limited or the need existed for some degree of secrecy, or in situations where a heavy defensive posture was warranted.
Surely you don't actually believe that these bastardized show-off vehicles would perform on par with real sports cars.
Hey, the Maybach's my favorite car! But seriously, no.
It would be if it's a secondary function. Sure, if the ship is a troop transport, it might make sense to have the whole thing land. But if it's a capital warship, it's not like you have the kind of design breathing room that you do in the consumer market. Weaken its combat capabilities and you die, so any compromise to its core function had better be worth it, and this one isn't.
Absolutely. Now one thing I want to make clear is that I in no way support the idea of Voyager being able to make planetary landings. However, I did want to put forward the argument that planetary landing capability is useful for certain applications.

Frankly, the thought of landing in that piece of crap scares the heck out of me. For ST-style spacecraft, with their unnatural style of construction, landing just does not make sense. It's less of a stretch with a more natural style of spacecraft, one that uses a form factor like our current rockets or spaceplanes, or a Heinleinian-style spacecraft with vertically arranged decks, where the front of the ship is the top and the aft of the ship is at the bottom when the vessel is landed (and Heinlein's ships would typically land by brakeing entirely with their "jets").

One annoying aspect of SF in general is that no one has made a film with realistic space combat, and the few literary stabs I've seen at it were from various 1950s novels and are now completely obsolete. Thus, when it comes to envisioning how space combat will actually work, we remain in highly speculative territory, and this opens the door to some very exciting discussions (such as this one) about what a combat starship should be.
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Post by Braedley »

RThurmont wrote:One annoying aspect of SF in general is that no one has made a film with realistic space combat, and the few literary stabs I've seen at it were from various 1950s novels and are now completely obsolete. Thus, when it comes to envisioning how space combat will actually work, we remain in highly speculative territory, and this opens the door to some very exciting discussions (such as this one) about what a combat starship should be.
Do not forget nBSG: Resurrection Ship. That's probably the most realistic that we'll see in a while.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Destructionator XIII wrote:I feel dirty doing this, but if you have the time, you should read RedImperator's fic down in the fanfics forum. I think he portrayed pretty realistic space battles really well, and made it into a great read. Of course, that isn't film, but I'm honestly not sure how well it would translate to film.

"Enemy ships firing" 10 minutes of waiting
"Computer automatically deploying countermeasures" more minutes of waiting
then either: "Torpedoes disrupted, second wave inbound" wait more minutes of nothingness (repeat)
or: The nuclear missile hits, instantly killing or bringing very near death everyone aboard as the ship breaks up.

But it turned out really well in writing.
Submarine movies are made that way. Watch Crimson Tide for an example of the genre. The onscreen tension comes primarily from watching little dots move on a sonar display, and hearing the range being called out. Just speed up the timeframe but employ some of the same basic strategies. Just don't overdo the submarine analogy and have people hiding under consoles trying not to make any noise, or acting as if there are thermal layers in space.
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Post by Ted C »

Darth Wong wrote:Submarine movies are made that way. Watch Crimson Tide for an example of the genre. The onscreen tension comes primarily from watching little dots move on a sonar display, and hearing the range being called out. Just speed up the timeframe but employ some of the same basic strategies. Just don't overdo the submarine analogy and have people hiding under consoles trying not to make any noise, or acting as if there are thermal layers in space.
Space battles tend to be a lot like this in Elizabeth Moon's science fiction novels. You usually have the perspective of a bridge crew, who depend on their instruments to tell them what's happening. Tactical use of FTL propulsion is critical, and lag from lightspeed sensor equipment can be a killer.
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Post by CaptJodan »

Darth Wong wrote:Submarine movies are made that way. Watch Crimson Tide for an example of the genre. The onscreen tension comes primarily from watching little dots move on a sonar display, and hearing the range being called out.
The underlying concept was fine, but I wouldn't look too closely at Crimson Tide for any other realistic portrayals of submarine function and life, let alone space life. I wouldn't call Red October realistic, but at least they had a waterfall display, and not a radar with blips for a sonar screen.

The time it can take for a sub launched torpedo to hit another sub from several miles away definately falls into the "several minutes" category, during which you're usually fairly deaf as a post as you run away from the bearing the torpedo was launched from.
Just don't overdo the submarine analogy and have people hiding under consoles trying not to make any noise, or acting as if there are thermal layers in space.
Didn't they do this in TOS's Balance of Terror? I always found that part in the episode pretty funny, how everyone was whispering and being very quiet on the bridge. Then Spock hits a console and it makes noise and suddenly they know where they are.
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Post by Darth Wong »

CaptJodan wrote:The underlying concept was fine, but I wouldn't look too closely at Crimson Tide for any other realistic portrayals of submarine function and life, let alone space life. I wouldn't call Red October realistic, but at least they had a waterfall display, and not a radar with blips for a sonar screen.

The time it can take for a sub launched torpedo to hit another sub from several miles away definately falls into the "several minutes" category, during which you're usually fairly deaf as a post as you run away from the bearing the torpedo was launched from.
Well, submarine movies have never been too realistic. It always looks so roomy in those things when you see them in movies. But the general idea is good and quite applicable to space combat. It certainly seems more plausible than the dogfight style that you see in most sci-fi. Although Star Trek's particular implementation of the dogfight style is perhaps the worst, because they want to have the best of both worlds: the look of capships and the maneuvering and frenetic firing of dogfights. So they end up making people somehow miss a fucking capital ship at point-blank range in combat, because dogfighting is about avoiding the hit.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

CaptJodan wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Just don't overdo the submarine analogy and have people hiding under consoles trying not to make any noise, or acting as if there are thermal layers in space.
Didn't they do this in TOS's Balance of Terror? I always found that part in the episode pretty funny, how everyone was whispering and being very quiet on the bridge. Then Spock hits a console and it makes noise and suddenly they know where they are.
The latter bit you can rationalise as Spock having accidentally sent out an active sensor ping, which would stick out like a sore thumb to passive detection. The former, however... That is indeed carrying the metaphor to the ludicrous.
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote: In other words, ships specialized to land on planets. I don't have a problem with that; my problem is primarily with the kind of ships we typically see in Star Wars: capital warships. Obviously, if a ship's primary function involves landing on a planetary surface, it makes sense to design it accordingly. But adding it as a secondary function onto a spacecraft whose primary function is exploration or space combat is retarded.
...
It would be if it's a secondary function. Sure, if the ship is a troop transport, it might make sense to have the whole thing land. But if it's a capital warship, it's not like you have the kind of design breathing room that you do in the consumer market. Weaken its combat capabilities and you die, so any compromise to its core function had better be worth it, and this one isn't.
I think it should be noted that in some popular universes (ie some technology sets), one must be very careful by what one means as "landing". My off-the-cuff feeling is that if you define "landing" as being power-on repulsor/whatever hovering stabilized by landing legs, then it's not at all unreasonable to have something ISD-sized or larger land. If a spacecraft has essentially arbitrary thrust capacity and accelerative resistance (as Star Wars seems to, for example), then hovering against 1G isn't a big deal. At that point, landing legs are as much mooring masts as anything. I don't see this as a very significant design compromise, if all you need is a few legs that can take forces on the order of tens of tons.

If you're talking unpowered hover, then it's an entirely different issue. But to borrow the modern naval analogy of nuclear reactors, I don't know if starting and stopping the power generation systems on a scifi ship is going to be a commonplace thing anyway.
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Post by Vympel »

Darth Wong wrote: Well, submarine movies have never been too realistic. It always looks so roomy in those things when you see them in movies.
Das Boot is one exception to this- it really feels confined as hell in that movie, like it should. Great submarine movie.
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Post by Picard »

Batman wrote:
Bounty wrote:
A quick question though, where is the second shuttle bay?
Deck 9¾, between the cloning lab and the plastic surgeon's office, right across the hall of the shuttle factory. It's also bigger on the inside than the outside :mrgreen:
Oops :D
Somebody made a few minor scaling boo-boos I think :P
Or maybe some exotic technology to squeeze it.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y61/ue ... tlebay.jpg

It looks like there is (almost) enough space on sides of from where Flyer exits to actually allow for such hangar from first shot.
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Re: How does Voyager stay stable on ground?

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Picard, please read the rules. Do not post in threads that are more than a month old. See the rules for more detail.

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