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SVPD wrote:I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "stealthier, skills-based rogue" unless you mean one that allocates feats to adding skill bonuses to stealth and utility skills as opposed to things like 2 weapon fighting and weapon focus?

Rogues remain competitive in my campaigns because they know up front not to be combat powerhouses; they're also among the least likely characters to draw the ire of the enemy.

I mean, by and large, a rogue with higher stats in intelligence and charisma than strength and dexterity, in other words a higher priority on skills and subtlety than raw combat potential. A human rogue with 14 dex 18 int is not going to do the same sorts of evil things in combat that a halfling rogue with 20 dex is going to do.

Lusankya wrote:You can use the BAB feats and special abilities all at the same time. Spells, on the other hand, you can only use once a round, unless you waste four spell levels quickening them. All the extra versatility really does is take a load off the cleric, and while the mystic theurge is using the buffs, they're not doing the wizard's job, which is to destroy all enemies on the field.

And, because you're three levels behind where you're expected to be in terms of your spellcasting, you're dealing less damage with your spells (3d6, usually). A rogue/fighter combo would have lost 1 or 2 d6 sneak attack when compared to a regular rogue, and would be dealing just as much as a regular fighter. If you could qualify for it with three levels of each class - as a wiz/cler would do with mystic theurge, then the fighter/rogue would be only one BAB behind the fighter, and the only real loss would be in qualifying for the various "fighter-only" feats, in which case they'd have to wait for an extra three levels.

But you see, a Mystic Theurge can cast magic of both kinds at a much higher proficiency than they could through normal multiclassing. Again, at 16 you have a 13/13 combo, which is significantly better than the 8/8 combo you would have normally.

The following is the difference between a an 8/8 fighter/rogue and a 13/13 fighter/rogue:

8/8:
BAB: 14/9/4
Sneak attack: +4d6
Bonus Feats: 5
Saves: +8/+8/+4

13/13:
BAB: 22/17/12/7/2 (arguably, with a PRC, it would be more to the tune of: 15/10/5 or something less insane than 22, but you get the idea)
Sneak Attack: +7d6
Bonus Feats: 7 Fighter, 2 Rogue Special
Save: Either +7/+11/+5, +11/+7/+5 or +11/+11/+5

Some of this is just guessing, naturally, but you can still see a clear difference between the two, just like you can see a clear difference in the spellcasting potential with a normal sorcerer/cleric combo and the Mystic Theurge.

Sir Nitram wrote:Tome Of Battle: Book Of Nine Swords. Swordsage. Granted, at level 16 it's a +12 BAB, not a +13, but given the other toys Swordsages get on top of Rogue-like fun(Wis to AC in no or light armour, the blasting possibilities if you take Desert Wind strikes..), it's a fair trade off.

Seriously. If you're a fan of melee combat, ToB is awesome. Not anymore realistic, but I don't play games to be in reality. I live in reality.

I may look into it in the near future, thank you for the heads up. And yeah, not everyone is a fan of the same stuff. In general, when I say more realistic, I mean that a more experience character can't wipe the floor with a newer character just because of additional toughness gained through "levels", but because they're better at combat and so on, but that's really a discussion for another thread entirely.

Wow has this thread gone on awhile! Thank you all for the suggestions.

A few things.

1. Starting level is 2nd.

2. I've already nixed his domain choices. Those kinda jumped out at me as well.

3. The taking the "Shakey" flaw makes it pretty obvious that he intends to munch a bit with the melee character. Also his buddy is also taking this as well.

4. His buddy also brings up another point I wanted to ask about. He wants to play a "Whirling Frenzy Barbarian". Does this strike anyone else as more than a bit over powered? And of course, he wants to do it with a great sword.

Granted, if he had a background for it I could live with it, but it still seems a tad dodgey.

Thanks again guys!

what books are you allowing?
So far it's PHB/DMG, possible a Greyhawk sourcebook, the complete series (if not all which?) and Unearthed Arcana. Are there any more?

The flaw, because it gives a feat in return, reduces the level at which he has 6 turns per day and can use stilled divine metamagic to level 6.

PHB is wide open, then anything beyond that is subject to approval for what will "fit" into the theme of the campaign.

On the plus side of all this, he's not a very clever munchkin. If he was, he'd have grabbed Druid.

If you really want to fuck him over, you can make it so that he can't take any class that isn't either commonplace in your game setting or doesn't make sense to be there. IE - a barbarian berserker better have a damned good reason to be in Silverymoon or any other highly advanced civilization that looks down upon uncivilized folk.

does 3rd edition have rules for warp spasm? (you know like Cu-Culain having your body get all fracked up, blood oozing out of your pores and bones emerging from your skin.

Velthuijsen wrote: @lPeregrine:
That is a good summarization.
But if using point 4 either leave around clues about this being a deviation from the norm or have the deviation be the norm so that players know what to expect the next time.

But the players shouldn't know what to expect. Why should a character know everything about a monster he's never seen before just because the character's player memorized the book?

Unless you mean "deviation from the norm in his world"? In that case, yes, give a hint, but only if the character would have knowledge of the typical monster. If it's the first zombie he's ever seen, for example, he wouldn't know whether it's typical or some rare special zombie.

3. The taking the "Shakey" flaw makes it pretty obvious that he intends to munch a bit with the melee character. Also his buddy is also taking this as well.

Well, flaws are reasonable, if you make them relevant flaws. Don't go easy on the party just because they sacrificed all their ranged firepower. Make them pay for it occasionally, or you've just given them free bonus feats.

(butch and sundance?) It looks like we have an entire horse/wolf archer army out there....

Heh, here is an email exchange between me and one of the players.

Me: The issue is that you are wanting to do it with a greatsword really and probably while power attacking as well.

While I can live with a bit of power gaming, doing it w/o a background is edging a tad close to that dreaded M word for my tastes.

Him: Well god forbid I try to do something interesting. I will just go with the standard rage.

Me: I don't mind interesting at all. I applaud it in fact. Just the character is a combat monster and I'm not seein a lot of roleplayin to it when you take the feat & skill selection, and while I enjoy a good combat a lot, I prefer folks to have characters that are more than just a collection of stats.

I'll give you an instance with my character in Eric's game.

I'll see if I can find my history for Creighton tomorrow at work and forward it to you. It explains why he's a variant ranger.

For instance, his background is as a Marine Scout, as such, he has NO experience with animals so after talking with Eric, I dropped the animal companion & the animal wild empathy. In it's place I got Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus. Does it make Creighton tougher in a fight? Yes and no, having the free wolf pet to trip folks and keep'em away hurts, but it didn't fit his background for why he'd be a variant. Bein a really skilled archer who specializes in hit and run does. So out went all the animal stuff. Further, for my skill selections they all reflect Creighton's background as a marine scout. He's got profession Marine, Craft Bowyer (for making arrows), Craft Poisonmaking because the quick, dirty take down is fully appropriate for the character. He's got no personal skills because he was never a leader, but since then I've started buying them.

This is the sorta stuff I'm looking for. I apologize for not making that clear, but any time you want a variant or anything outside of the stock, then you have to come up with a roleplaying reason for it. You can't just wave your hand and say you are different from all the other X's for no reason.

Does that make things more clear for what I'm after?

'Whirling Rage' isn't interesting. A Kobold Barbarian, that's interesting. All of a sudden he's coming at your fucking knees. A half-orc Paladin, that's interesting. Most any kind of Warforged? Interesting!

Actually, I disagree with you xammer, you should've taken Scout if you want hit & run archer.

General Schatten wrote:Actually, I disagree with you xammer, you should've taken Scout if you want hit & run archer.

From your PoV, from mine I don't care for the Scout class at all. It's a matter of suspension of disbelief with the whole move 10 feet and do more damage thing.

@Xammer99:
You can make it interesting for the guy by not directly approving whirling frenzy but make it a form of a quest. If he plays well the reward will be the whirling frenzy, if he screws up he doesn't get it.
Several benefits:
He has a goal to work for and needs to play to get it.
If he gets it is is more then just a bunch of numbers but an achievement (think positive feedback).
If he doesn't you can put the blame on him because you were planning to give the it to him as part of the storyline.

Hotfoot wrote: But you see, a Mystic Theurge can cast magic of both kinds at a much higher proficiency than they could through normal multiclassing. Again, at 16 you have a 13/13 combo, which is significantly better than the 8/8 combo you would have normally.

The following is the difference between a an 8/8 fighter/rogue and a 13/13 fighter/rogue:

8/8:
BAB: 14/9/4
Sneak attack: +4d6
Bonus Feats: 5
Saves: +8/+8/+4

13/13:
BAB: 22/17/12/7/2 (arguably, with a PRC, it would be more to the tune of: 15/10/5 or something less insane than 22, but you get the idea)
Sneak Attack: +7d6
Bonus Feats: 7 Fighter, 2 Rogue Special
Save: Either +7/+11/+5, +11/+7/+5 or +11/+11/+5

Some of this is just guessing, naturally, but you can still see a clear difference between the two, just like you can see a clear difference in the spellcasting potential with a normal sorcerer/cleric combo and the Mystic Theurge.

You seriously have to think about the fact that the MT can cast an arcane OR cleric spell a turn. A fighter/rogue would gets to stack his rogue combat abilities and his fighter feats to attack. This means that the hypothetical fighter rogue class would either have an ability at first level that states "May not use bonus feats from this class or the fighter class while using sneak attack or abilities gained from the rogue class" or a 1/2 attack bonus progression.

No expeirence for treasure....why do they give experience for treasure in D+D? hell the treasure is reward enough why give it out twice?

Typhonis 1 wrote:No expeirence for treasure....why do they give experience for treasure in D+D? hell the treasure is reward enough why give it out twice?

They haven't since 1st edition, although thieves got bonus xp for stealing stuff in 2nd.

SirNitram wrote:On the plus side of all this, he's not a very clever munchkin. If he was, he'd have grabbed Druid.

Tell me about it. I know someone who played a Druid in a campaign with an oceanic setting (i.e. ships, pirates, etc). At one point, he shifted into a sparrow, flew over an enemy ship, and then cast Firestorm on it.

Grappling priest? Eh. Tiny animal raining burning brimstone down on a wooden ship? Now that's impressive.

Bum him out with lots of roleplaying and undercover stuff. I was a sorcerer (was playing), and he had mostly combat orientated spells and stuff. This was my first game (and still is, since I'm not sure where people meet up and do this sort of thing), and our DM was a very roleplaying one. I had to wait until my third session before combat. Fortunately, I had an absurdly high bluff and charisma score, and am ok at making up stories.

xammer99 wrote:The PC in question wants to play a priest who focuses on grappling. (Hints on how this can be abused would be appreciated.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the concept, and a grapple-focused monk should be able to mop the floor with him. What he'll probably want to do is use a lot of buff spells before going into a fight. If the party gets ambushed, that doesn't help much. If fights tend to be spaced more than a few minutes apart, those spells will expire before the next fight. He'll also have issues with large-sized grapplers. Just make sure you thoroughly understand the grappling rules.

xammer99 wrote:He also continues to refuse to read the source packet on the god(s) he keeps trying to pick and torque. E.g. I’m using the Greyhawk Gods (standard PHB + a few more) and he first insisted on Hextor, but after I told him that he couldn’t take weapon focus (from the War Domain), w/ any weapon he wanted, he switched to the dwarven grappling priest of Clanggedon. I’ve pointed out how Clangggedon (a LG god) doesn’t have access to the Pestilence & Trickery domains, but he’s not gotten back to me yet.

This is just stupidity. If he wants to play a cleric, he needs to have at least a basic grasp of the campaign theology. This sounds like the sort of deliberately obstructive player that I'd exclude from a campaign.

xammer99 wrote:This is how I know he’s not reading the materials, because in each case I listed the weapons/domains of the particular gods. Also because he kept trying to pick classes (before the cleric) that I’d specifically listed as off limits (Favored Soul and Samurai).

If players keep wanting to play a class that you are not supporting in your campaign, then you should explain that they would probably prefer to play with some other DM.

xammer99 wrote:My solution to this one is going to be requiring lots of game knowledge about the gods and that acting against the Gods tenants will result in a loss of your powers.

I know he’s a munchkin from the game I play in that he’s a part of where he plays a Barbarian Goliath (Races of Stone I think). That game uses a point by system where he dumped everything into strength & constitution to come up with this beast of a character that uses 3d6 large weapon, had a +11 to hit, and +19 to damage at level 3. Oh and that insisted that Power Attack added both to hit and to damage.

Now it sounds like he wants to cheat. This is sounding less and less like someone I want in my game.

xammer99 wrote:His current character is somewhat similarly “optimized” for melee since I allowed them (against my better judgement) to take one flaw. So he picked up “Shakey” which gives a penalty to ranged attacks.

I've never messed with flaws, so I have no idea what to tell you.

xammer99 wrote:My solution to this one is one that was already planned. Specifically that it was going to be a somewhat melee unfriendly campaign. I don’t use many “monsters” per say, those that I do use are typically undead, so his choice of grappling is rather amusing. Then for the “smart” bad guys, they always use ranged weapons.

I see no reason why melee shouldn't be a normal part of the game. Adversaries can be just as optimized as players, and as someone who's going to be running at the enemy, he'll hit their optimized bricks pretty quick. He'll only be a problem if he gets loose in the enemy backfield among the soft and squishy spellcaster types, and smart opponents will cover themselves against that sort of threat.

xammer99 wrote:Oh a bit of icing on the cake… since my major monsters are undead, you’d think it’d be a boon for him. Well he decided that he didn’t need Charisma, and left that at an 8.

His loss. Assuming you let him play.

xammer99 wrote:For stats, after seeing how he and his little buddy abused the crap out of that system I simply gave them a set of stats to assign where they want. So it rather hamstrung his ability to min-max.

Any well monitored system should do. Dice rolling where you personally witness every roll, point buy, or whatever.

xammer99 wrote:Magic items will be extremely rare and never, ever, for sale. I’m using a sorta home brewed setting. They think it’s Greyhawk (Ratik actually) that they are going to be playing in, but actually it’s a Ravenloft game.

All that's a matter of taste, of course. The game is balanced for a certain amount of magic item use by the players, hence the wealth-by-level guidelines. I guess the main thing is to limit how well the items available to him serve to enhance his munchkin build.

You know, you want to fuck with a Powergamer's head, flip through Races Of The Dragon and throw an entire tribe of Kobolds at the party.

Every step is a new cunning trap. Their sorcerers are more powerful than they should be. They move faster than other creatures their size, and tend to use reach weapons. And a Dragonwrought Kobold can be outright obscene.

I'm still wanting to see the reaction when the priest grabbles the first Ravenloft Zombie, and gets poisoned/diseased.

One of the scariest Arduin moduals for beginners is Thunder Mountain. What do you call a tribe of Kobolds living in the ruins of an anchient Space ship. <energy clips that give rad poisoning, being used by scuicide troops>

So, I've done quite a bit of planning and prep for the 1st game, and in this I've decided to use all custom monsters for those they encounter. The first "monster" they'll encounter is Fluffy the Cat. Fluffy is a zombie cat from a little girl in town that died about 4 months ago and has now come back and is a might bit hungry.

Fluffy is also going to serve as the basic template for all other zombies, and I plan to use quite a few. Principally because I like zombies and this just seems fun. But I REALLY would like some feed back here on if folks think that a pack of 1hd zombies like this (about 10) are too tough for a part of 7 that lack a cleric who can turn undead.

Fluffy the Cat

The reason for the terror becomes evident a few moments later, when out of the fog comes stumbling a small cat. The cat is simply disgusting. Its fur has rotted off in places, exposing bone and grey putrid meat underneath. It is missing both eyes, yet it still shambles towards you. As it draws closer it emits a low moaning wail that seems to penetrate to your very soul.

Size/Type: Tiny Undead
Hit Dice: ½ d12 +3 (9hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20ft (4 squares, can’t run)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 size), touch 12, flat-footed, 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +1 / -4
Attack: Bite +1 Melee 1d2
Full Attack: Bite +1 Melee 1d2
Space/Reach: 0/0
Special Attacks: Wail (DC 10), Diseased Bite (DC 10)
Special Qualities: Blind Sight 80’, DR 5/fire, Undead Creation, Undead Traits.
Saves: Fort: +0, Ref +0, Wil +3
Abilities: Str: 8, Dex 11, Con 0, Int 0, Wis10, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: Toughness.

Wail: When a zombie detects a potential source of food, it immediately begins emitting a loud moaning wail that carries quite far. This noise first serves to alert any near by zombies to the potential feast and draws them to it.

Second, to those unaccustomed to the wail, it requires a DC10 Will Save or be Shaken (-2 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks) for the length of the encounter. It requires 10 successful will saves against zombies to become immune to the wail.

Diseased Bite: Zombies have the ability to create other zombies with their bite. When a victim is bitten, they must make a DC 10 + 1/HD Fort Save or be infected with the Zombie’s plague and lose 1 point of Constitution. This disease forces an additional save every night at midnight or lose another point of constitution. If the victim fails all saves and dies of constitution loss, then that night they die and immediately rise as a zombie. Further, if while infected with the disease, if the victim dies, then they immediately rise as a zombie as well.

Overcoming the disease is not easy and requires the victim to make successful Fort saves 3 consecutive nights. If the victim does this, then they begin regaining lost points of constitution at a rate of 1 per day with bed rest.

A skilled Healer can make a DC 10 Heal Save to grant the victim a bonus to their nightly saves. For every 5 points beyond 10 that the healer makes his check, he grants the victim a +2 on the save.

Oh, and the inspiration for these was, quite obviously I'll imagine, World War Z. =)

One other thing. Since fluffy is a lil kitty...it won't be any trouble for him to bite while grappled. Lord knows my cat can do it when I'm tryin to hold him down to give him medicine.