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Darth Yoshi wrote:The Wilde Karrde was powered down when Thrawn called in the Interdictor. That's why there was a delay.

Darth Tanner wrote:But gravity shadows have been shown to not stop people going to hyperspace, its simply a safety cut out in that under normal circumstances a grav shadow indicates your about to smack into a planet, with interdictors thats not true so there is no reason not to simply override the safety cut off to get away. The danger of hitting something else on your way out is minimal if you already had the course plotted or if you simply do a short jump to get away from the interdictor or its escorts. Also any danger is outweighed by the fact that your alternative is to be arrested or destroyed.

And do the Vong use hyperspace? I have only read a few of the NJO books but I thought they used some form of long range tractor to pull themselves towards gravity wells like planets and such.

The Vong are capable of entering hyperspace. Don't remember how, though.

They "lock on" to a gravity source and use to pull them in it's direction

Stark wrote:So, if they can pick up a fleet at the edge of a system before Vader even gets told, they won't spot a ship a mere 30lm away?

There's a difference between a battle group not giving a fuck about wether or not they're noticed (once they're noticed) and a single small ship trying to hide, yes.

Also, what does 'where I was going at which speed, when chances are I don't' even MEAN?

Are you really this stupid? When you do a blind jump YOU don't know where you end up, by and large. So how does anybody else?

Batman wrote:There's a difference between a battle group not giving a fuck about wether or not they're noticed (once they're noticed) and a single small ship trying to hide, yes.

Like... what? Quotes? I mean, there's the obvious 'big flash of whatever' when things emerge from hyperspace, but how do you 'try to hide' from realtime FTL sensors? Is there any reason to assume smaller ships are difficult to detect at such short range? They appear to be able to sweep a system in a few mintues tops - if you were a better debator, you could be arguing that the time it took Veers to report might just be enough time to plot a longer jump.

Are you really this stupid? When you do a blind jump YOU don't know where you end up, by and large. So how does anybody else?

WITH THEIR REALTIME FTL SENSORS. This isn't hard scifi - we have canon and EU references to realtime FTL sensors, and they clearly don't have to slowly sweep the sky to detect things. You know, the 'told you I'd lose them' in ANH? You seem to be under the impression it's impossible to track ships in hyperspace.

Are you seriously saying that if you're lost, nobody knows where you are?

Stark wrote:

Batman wrote:There's a difference between a battle group not giving a fuck about wether or not they're noticed (once they're noticed) and a single small ship trying to hide, yes.

Like... what? Quotes? I mean, there's the obvious 'big flash of whatever' when things emerge from hyperspace, but how do you 'try to hide' from realtime FTL sensors? Is there any reason to assume smaller ships are difficult to detect at such short range?

This is a trick question, right?

They appear to be able to sweep a system in a few mintues tops

As evidenced by? If they WERE why did they bother sweeping the Hoth asteroid field?

Are you really this stupid? When you do a blind jump YOU don't know where you end up, by and large. So how does anybody else?

WITH THEIR REALTIME FTL SENSORS.

The resolution and response time of which you have established where?

This isn't hard scifi - we have canon and EU references to realtime FTL sensors, and they clearly don't have to slowly sweep the sky to detect things.

Quote me the time it takes to cover a hemisphere.

Batman wrote:

Stark wrote:Like... what? Quotes? I mean, there's the obvious 'big flash of whatever' when things emerge from hyperspace, but how do you 'try to hide' from realtime FTL sensors? Is there any reason to assume smaller ships are difficult to detect at such short range?

This is a trick question, right?

Oh, so you're assuming they can detect objects at lightyears range and track through hyperspace but NOT detect ships at far shorter ranges? Right.

Batman wrote:

They appear to be able to sweep a system in a few mintues tops

As evidenced by? If they WERE why did they bother sweeping the Hoth asteroid field?

What does this mean? The rebels were immediately aware of the Imperial fleet. Thus, the time between their arrival and their detection (minutes at most) suggests they're not taking days or hours to sweep the system. Indeed, if it did, it'd be useless given SW sublight speeds.

PS, 'if they were'... what? If they were sweeping the system every few minutes, why would they AVOID the asteroid field? I know you enjoy not making sense, but it's quite tiresome.

Batman wrote:

WITH THEIR REALTIME FTL SENSORS.

The resolution and response time of which you have established where?

Oh I see! They can chug along at 170ly/hr using FTL sensors to scout ahead, they can sweep systems, they are instantly aware of starfighter launches on a base across a gas giant, and they pursue ships through hyperspace but I have to prove they can detect a starship 30lm away! You never change.

Batman wrote:

This isn't hard scifi - we have canon and EU references to realtime FTL sensors, and they clearly don't have to slowly sweep the sky to detect things.

Quote me the time it takes to cover a hemisphere.

It's like you're a caricature of yourself. You're assuming - for no reason other than you like being right - that microjumps of laughably short length are enough to totally bemuse an enemy for many minutes.

This, despite the fact that the enemy has a) the escape vector, giving a line along which your ship will lie, and b) FTL sensors with system-wide and EUish LY range. They hardly have to search a huge volume of space to follow your path until they detect the ship and jump to intercept. This is the real point: I'm hardly EU-fluent, but your assumption that it's somehow impossible for them to FOLLOW YOUR EXIT VECTOR WITH FTL SENSORS within 'a few minutes' is retarded. Even if it DID take them HOURS to scan a hemisphere, they'd STILL be able to scan along your known path of travel until they detected the ship.

Again, if you were a better debater you could argue that blind jumps are quick to start, but even jumping a similar distance safely takes longer, thus they may not be able to intercept before you can jump further away.

If you're right, than surely brief blind jumps are a silver bullet of SW evasion and escape. Why then are they never seen? Could there, perhaps, be a problem preventing it?

Since hyperspace pursuit is possible (such as when Han had to take some time outrunning those slugs after leaving Tatooine in ANH), I'd say they can definitely track a ship that jumps into hyperspace. They wouldn't need to look for it again.. they'd never lose it in the first place.

How else would you pursue a ship into hyperspace after it jumps?

Cykeisme wrote:Since hyperspace pursuit is possible (such as when Han had to take some time outrunning those slugs after leaving Tatooine in ANH), I'd say they can definitely track a ship that jumps into hyperspace. They wouldn't need to look for it again.. they'd never lose it in the first place.

How else would you pursue a ship into hyperspace after it jumps?

I think multiple consecutive 'risky' jumps of enough length might do it: if you figure 100ly FTL scanners, moving out of range isn't impossible with rapid random jumps. Those distances surely invite risk, though: I'm not familiar enough with hyperspace-danger density. There has to be a reason why people wait under attack to calculate jumps: if it was so trivial to microjump and realign, we'd surely have seen it.

does anybody know the minimum distance covered in a hyperspace jump? because it will take the computer some time to get into hyperspace and to get the ship out again?

also, what distance is covered during the jump, that is in the movies the moment that the stars look like stripes and before the ship enters the rotating blue of hyperspace?

freker wrote:does anybody know the minimum distance covered in a hyperspace jump? because it will take the computer some time to get into hyperspace and to get the ship out again?

also, what distance is covered during the jump, that is in the movies the moment that the stars look like stripes and before the ship enters the rotating blue of hyperspace?

In the EU they introduced 'micro jumps' which would take a ship from the outer star system to the inner system where presumably habbital planets are. These are almost instant but still take the standard prep time as other jumps (iirc).

Oh, and while thinking about it, to introduce something into bats and starks conversation;

It's possible that the rebels had sensors dedicated to watch the exit vectors into the Hoth system from other major planets. So it wouldn't be a 'wait for the scan to recycle around the system' rather than a sensor dedicated to that particular point where someone would enter the Hoth system from the X sector/system.

Stark wrote:

Batman wrote:

Stark wrote:Like... what? Quotes? I mean, there's the obvious 'big flash of whatever' when things emerge from hyperspace, but how do you 'try to hide' from realtime FTL sensors? Is there any reason to assume smaller ships are difficult to detect at such short range?

This is a trick question, right?

Oh, so you're assuming they can detect objects at lightyears range and track through hyperspace but NOT detect ships at far shorter ranges? Right.

No, I assume that small objects are harder to detect than big ones. Duh.
We can detect objects at BILLION lightyear ranges TODAY. The RESOLUTION of those FTL sensors is...? They take how long to scan a given area?

Batman wrote:

They appear to be able to sweep a system in a few mintues tops

As evidenced by? If they WERE why did they bother sweeping the Hoth asteroid field?

What does this mean?The rebels were immediately aware of the Imperial fleet. Thus, the time between their arrival and their detection (minutes at most) suggests they're not taking days or hours to sweep the system. Indeed, if it did, it'd be useless given SW sublight speeds.

I can't recall ever claiming it takes days to sweep a system. Minutes at most works perfectly for my emergency microjump scenario because apparently that's all that's needed to plot a proper jump.

PS, 'if they were'... what? If they were sweeping the system every few minutes, why would they AVOID the asteroid field? I know you enjoy not making sense, but it's quite tiresome.

I admit that was moderately cryptic. Let me try to rephrase. If it is that pathetically easy to locate even a tiny starship at interstellar distances what was the big deal with trying to find the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid field?

Batman wrote:

WITH THEIR REALTIME FTL SENSORS.

The resolution and response time of which you have established where?

Oh I see! They can chug along at 170ly/hr using FTL sensors to scout ahead,

Ahead.

they can sweep systems,

Taking an unknown amount of time and again, with an unknown resolution,

they are instantly aware of starfighter launches on a base across a gas giant,

Over a distance of lightseconds,

and they pursue ships through hyperspace

Which, as they are already pursuing it, is moving in a known direction, and the distance at which they can do so is up for grabs,

but I have to prove they can detect a starship 30lm away! You never change.

As none of your above examples shows they can, yes. And notice that I never said they can't detect it at all. I'm saying they can't detect it in time to matter.

Batman wrote:

This isn't hard scifi - we have canon and EU references to realtime FTL sensors, and they clearly don't have to slowly sweep the sky to detect things.

Quote me the time it takes to cover a hemisphere.

It's like you're a caricature of yourself. You're assuming - for no reason other than you like being right - that microjumps of laughably short length are enough to totally bemuse an enemy for many minutes.

You will now no doubt quote many incidents were that didn't work.

This, despite the fact that the enemy has a) the escape vector, giving a line along which your ship will lie,

Unless you're mean and change course underway. Oops.

and b) FTL sensors with system-wide and EUish LY range.

With unestablished so far resolution and sweep time.

They hardly have to search a huge volume of space to follow your path until they detect the ship and jump to intercept.

As a matter of fact even if it was a straight-line jump yes they do unless they know how FAR you jumped.

This is the real point: I'm hardly EU-fluent, but your assumption that it's somehow impossible for them to FOLLOW YOUR EXIT VECTOR WITH FTL SENSORS within 'a few minutes' is retarded.

Too bad I never said that.

Even if it DID take them HOURS to scan a hemisphere, they'd STILL be able to scan along your known path of travel until they detected the ship.

Based on?

If you're right, than surely brief blind jumps are a silver bullet of SW evasion and escape. Why then are they never seen? Could there, perhaps, be a problem preventing it?

Could it be that Star Wars writers simply don't understand the technology at their fingertips, and science in general most of the time?

So, Spock, how can you pursue people through hyperspace if your detection area is very narrow and the slightest movement would require some slow sweeping? Surely then the Falcon could simply pull a sharp turn (thus being lost from the slow, narrow, low-resolution sensors) and the Imps would have to spend time finding them again? If you can pursue a tiny, apparently maneuveuring target through hyperspace, that suggests to me that this is not the case and that the sensors are sensitive enough, of enough range and fast enough to simply locate and track them in realtime at whatever range the pursuit occured. A brief, slow, 30lm trip can be as turny as you want - if hyperspace vessels can be tracked between systems, it would be trivial over such a small distance.

Your claim that in a straight-line jump (over such a microsecond jump I don't see why we should assume it's not straight ) they would have to search 'a huge volume of space' simply shows your whole attitude. It's a line, right? With a spaceship on it. And you haven't gone very far at all. But it obviously takes them ages and they can't spot small things anyway - certainly nothing like the Millenium Falcon! The sensor elements must be hand cranked.

I'll have to remember that 'nobody ever does it' is NOT valid evidence against your pet theory!

However, I can't be assed doing any research to debate you properly so I'm going to concede.

Knife - this is something I'd thought of myself: remote relays would make sense, especially given the radiation burst Dr Saxton theorises accompanies hyperspace exit in the direction of travel. Detecting such 'incoming' ships would seem to be the 'easiest' task for SW sensors.

Stark wrote:So, Spock, how can you pursue people through hyperspace if your detection area is very narrow and the slightest movement would require some slow sweeping?

The same way fighter aircraft have since the invention of radar, which for fighter radars is very narrow and slow sweeping (or was until the invention of APAR).

Surely then the Falcon could simply pull a sharp turn (thus being lost from the slow, narrow, low-resolution sensors) and the Imps would have to spend time finding them again?

A turn to a new vector the followers can SEE and thus concentrate their search along.

If you can pursue a tiny, apparently maneuveuring target through hyperspace, that suggests to me that this is not the case and that the sensors are sensitive enough, of enough range and fast enough to simply locate and track them in realtime at whatever range the pursuit occured.

That range being, if you could be bothered to elaborate? And if you're already PURSUING, that means you can confine your search to a rather narrow area of space.

A brief, slow, 30lm trip can be as turny as you want - if hyperspace vessels can be tracked between systems, it would be trivial over such a small distance.

Too bad there's no evidence for that being possible.

Your claim that in a straight-line jump (over such a microsecond jump I don't see why we should assume it's not straight )

Evidence for it necessarily being that short would be?

they would have to search 'a huge volume of space' simply shows your whole attitude. It's a line, right? With a spaceship on it. And you haven't gone very far at all.

And the chasers know how far I have gone because?

I'll have to remember that 'nobody ever does it' is NOT valid evidence against your pet theory!

It isn't valid evidence, period.

Wait wait wait. You say there's no evidence of the resolution of these sensors, but you now claim they can tell aspect and thus where it goes when it leaves the apparently tiny beam? Make up your mind.

And since you can't help yourself walking into a brick wall, hyperspace pursuit must take place at far longer ranges than 30lm. You have to see a ship jump, then respond: this would take at least many seconds. At that range (many seconds at 30Mc) their sensors can locate, track, and navigate after the ship. As you say, they can't assume you went in a straight line, so they must thus be able to locate the escaping ship with FTL sensors and pursue, even after several full seconds. That's - according to you - a huge volume of space they just scanned fast enough to keep them in sensor range. Unless they just followed the escape vector with their hand-cranked sensor elements.

You could argue that automated systems would watch nearby hyperspace jumps to provide information if you needed to pursue, but this works against microjumps too.

You really need to focus your debate. I do know you like to respond to everything (oh, except the part where I concede because you want to get the last word in lol) but you have some good points - particularly since I can't be assed researching, thus giving you victory. However, by simply running bullheaded at all this stuff, you're just making yourself look like a fool. Like saying 'pursuing' is easy and doesn't require 'locating' first.

Oh actually, I don't understand how you simulanteously get a short (thus not very dangerous) jump, but it somehow takes longer than a few microseconds. You claim 'there's no evidence' it's that short, but simply throwing speed and distance gives me time. Are you saying your blind jump is some carefully constructed corkscrew course? Maybe you're going really slowly? We're not mindreaders, Bats-o-my-lud.

ISTM, it doesn't matter whether enemies can find people who execute short blind jumps instantly or not. To follow, they have to calculate their own jump, and while they are doing that the would-be escapee can be calculating theirs.

Thus, if the detection is near-instant, it really becomes a race of navicomputers.

Unless I am missing something.

EDIT: One thing didn't consider; are they still in turbolaser range after such a jump? A quick search hasn't turned up any range figures except game mechanics.



glass.

Just one question.
From what I understand people here are saying that it isn't necessary to provide power to maintain constant speed in hyperspace merely to make a "jump in" and "jump out".
But then why does Acclamator have it's operational range expressed in light years? Shouldn't it be expressed as number of "jumps" or course corrections or something?

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Why then is it impossible to jump while in a Interdictors field?

A theory I crafted long ago suggests that interdictor cruisers don't work by just projecting a simple gravitational field.

We know from the ANH novelisation that the presence of Tatooine gravitational field caused a delay in jumping to hyperspace, as Han nav comp had to work around it. Similarly, we know that blind jumping into hyperspace is possible, although interaction with a mass shadow as small as a comet was sufficient to deal castrophic damage to Talon Karrde vessel in Dark Force Rising.

Since we know that ships must be able to routinely pass by comets without being destroyed, its more than likely that the ship is capable of "protecting" itself against the shear forces exerted by mass shadows. While we don't know the specifics of the mechanism, we know that the nav computer can compensate for any gravitational field(up to a certain limit of course), as seen in the ANH novelisation.

As such, since we don't see a real gravitational effect from Interdictor cruisers most of the time,its possible that what the Interdictor cruiser does is set up a field in which random changes in forces is encountered(we see such precise control over gravity in the MF gunpits as well as in a zero g disco, similarly, grav based cloaking devices must also exhibit such finese). Thus, the ship is simply unable to compensate for any shearing forces it will encounter during the jump to hyperspace........

If it shuts off it safeties, what's going to happen is the ship will jump to hyperspace, but it will be torn to bits and pieces.

And as another victory for the insomoniac, i found the quote.

We're still within the gravitational influence of Tatooine,'came the cool response.'it will be a few minutes yet before the navigation computer can compensate and effect an accurate jump. I could override its decision, but the hyperdrive would likely shred itself. That would give me a nice hold full of scrap metal in addition to you four.'

ANH novelisation.

Kane Starkiller wrote:Just one question.
From what I understand people here are saying that it isn't necessary to provide power to maintain constant speed in hyperspace merely to make a "jump in" and "jump out".
But then why does Acclamator have it's operational range expressed in light years? Shouldn't it be expressed as number of "jumps" or course corrections or something?

Because fuel would be expended to get up to that speed, as well as to presumably slow down.Similarly, the limitation would be the hyperspace field and how much power it requires to protect you from the hazards of hyperspace.

IMO, the way they do hyperspace travel in the SWU is via continuous acceleration. It could explain some of the speed disparity seen in SW for short and long trips, as well as explain why travelling at "slow" speeds apparently saves money in Paradise Snare.

PainRack wrote:IMO, the way they do hyperspace travel in the SWU is via continuous acceleration. It could explain some of the speed disparity seen in SW for short and long trips, as well as explain why travelling at "slow" speeds apparently saves money in Paradise Snare.

In one of the X-Wing books, I believe Rogue Squadron, it was mentioned that a starship in hyperspace "sips" fuel, while running up to and decelerating from hyperspace and dogfighting "gulped" fuel.

if a ship in hyperspace enters a gravitational field, it will accelerate until it tears apart, but is it possible to use gravity field to accelerate and save fuel by passing along the edge of the field?

freker wrote:if a ship in hyperspace enters a gravitational field, it will accelerate until it tears apart, but is it possible to use gravity field to accelerate and save fuel by passing along the edge of the field?

I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not sure how the superluminal pseudo-physics currently used to describe hyperspace plays out theoretically under general relativity, though, so perhaps superluminal geodesics are different from subluminal geodesics. The whole matter of interaction with gravity bears further investigation.

Kane Starkiller wrote:Just one question.
From what I understand people here are saying that it isn't necessary to provide power to maintain constant speed in hyperspace merely to make a "jump in" and "jump out".
But then why does Acclamator have it's operational range expressed in light years? Shouldn't it be expressed as number of "jumps" or course corrections or something?

Good point. I wonder why Saxton did that. Of course, jumping from within the core to the fringe is a net gain of gravitational potential energy, which must come from the starship. It corresponds to a loss of kinetic energy, which means the ship accelerates. Likewise you must gain kinetic energy by "falling" toward the core and losing gravitational potential energy, which means traveling coreward will actually slow the ship down. Retrograde thrusting while in hyperspace will accelerate a ship due to reaction forces. "Forward" thrusting will deaccelerate it in hyperspace.

freker wrote:if a ship in hyperspace enters a gravitational field, it will accelerate until it tears apart, but is it possible to use gravity field to accelerate and save fuel by passing along the edge of the field?

With gravity, there really isn't an "edge" to the gravitational field. If you mean where the gravity field is strong enough to affect the hyperdrive, then the starship will enter and leave that section of the field so quickly that the effect should be pretty negligible (especially factoring that the acceleration direction would change between entering and exiting that area, and so would offset each other a bit).

Of course, that could depend on just how big this "edge" is. We know that a starship can exit hyperspace near an earth-like planet, which could make us assume that the "edge" less than a few light-minutes away from a star the size of the Sun. Staying at least this far away from a star while in hyperspace should be pretty easy.

On the other hand, we do know that the hyperdrive has to compensate for changing gravity fields when jumping. If needs to be done while in hyperspace as well, then going too fast while in too strong a gravity field would cause problems.

If this is the case, then a ship entering the destination system could decelerate as it approaches, allowing it to get further into the gravity well while still being able to compensate.

This does bring up a question, though. If that's how it works, then why would a hyperdrive entering hyperspace without compensating for a gravity field properly "shred itself," but not shred itself when being pulled out by an unexpected gravity well?

freker wrote:if a ship in hyperspace enters a gravitational field, it will accelerate until it tears apart, but is it possible to use gravity field to accelerate and save fuel by passing along the edge of the field?

What kind of acceleration would 1g have on ships travelling past c? And any interaction with a fixed gravitational field would be measured in the micro-seconds at best, before it fads away into insignficance.......

But then again, mass shadows from comets and asteroids are enough to trip the safeties and damage ships so............