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Skylon wrote:

havokeff wrote: The logic part I remember, , but what continuity did it shit on? I don't have it on DVD so I can't get a refresh.

Mostly it's portrayal of Zeferam Cochrane as a drunken buffoon versus how he was portrayed in TOS.

He did have like 200 years to experience a new age for mankind and give up drinking. It's plenty of time to change. Besides the "hero with feet of clay" sure sounds like something Ron Moore would write for a character.

And didn't Cochrane start acting all jerky and stuff when he found out the Companion was female and in love with him?

First Contact was not a good Star Trek movie because of the way it shit all over logic and continuity, but if you didn't know or care about the franchise history and just viewed it as a vampire movie in space (which is basically what it was), it was an entertaining romp, which is more than you can say for the other TNG movies.

I saw it more as space horror movie, of the Borg being so Zombie-life, Still I agree it was the most enjoyable of all the TNG Movies as it ditched the boring shit of the other movies and was simply a fun action movie, not having too much knowledge of Star Trek History actually helped for those coming to see it.

ShadowSonic wrote:

Skylon wrote:

havokeff wrote: The logic part I remember, , but what continuity did it shit on? I don't have it on DVD so I can't get a refresh.

Mostly it's portrayal of Zeferam Cochrane as a drunken buffoon versus how he was portrayed in TOS.

He did have like 200 years to experience a new age for mankind and give up drinking. It's plenty of time to change. Besides the "hero with feet of clay" sure sounds like something Ron Moore would write for a character.

And didn't Cochrane start acting all jerky and stuff when he found out the Companion was female and in love with him?

Cochrane worked himself up to a state of moral outrage, which is very different from the greedy drunk we see in Worst Contact.

ShadowSonic wrote:He did have like 200 years to experience a new age for mankind and give up drinking. It's plenty of time to change. Besides the "hero with feet of clay" sure sounds like something Ron Moore would write for a character.

Oh for fuck's sake, how could a drunken moron like that perform advanced engineering and scientific research? Absolutely nothing about the man suggested that he was a scientist or an engineer, and saying that he needed a couple of hundred years to reflect and become a mature person hardly explains how the fuck the man invented warp drive while acting like a taller, skinnier version of Homer Simpson.

Cochrane worked himself up to a state of moral outrage, which is very different from the greedy drunk we see in Worst Contact.

Greedy? Just because he admits he's in it for the money and not some grand ideology, he's greedy? Better tell half the world's population what greedy bastards they are, then.

Oh for fuck's sake, how could a drunken moron like that perform advanced engineering and scientific research?

He can't, just like he can't design an engine alone without a lab or build all the parts of a spaceship in a refugee camp - so the most likely explanation is that he did the bulk of the work before the war, sober. And it's not like a guy living in a post-apocalyptic refugee camp (a comfy one, but still) doesn't have any reason to drink.

Bounty wrote:

Cochrane worked himself up to a state of moral outrage, which is very different from the greedy drunk we see in Worst Contact.

Greedy? Just because he admits he's in it for the money and not some grand ideology, he's greedy? Better tell half the world's population what greedy bastards they are, then.

I hate to have to tell you this, but most scientists actually do put the money second and the challenge of the research first in their considerations. If they benefit from the work, all the better and they'll never say no to money, naturally. But mostly they go into such work because they're trying to crack the mysteries of the universe. That's not ideology, that curiosity and obsession.

Oh for fuck's sake, how could a drunken moron like that perform advanced engineering and scientific research?

He can't, just like he can't design an engine alone without a lab or build all the parts of a spaceship in a refugee camp - so the most likely explanation is that he did the bulk of the work before the war, sober. And it's not like a guy living in a post-apocalyptic refugee camp (a comfy one, but still) doesn't have any reason to drink.

And now doesn't have the technical infrastructure necessary to carry on the research and development effort in a post-atomic world, since most of that got smashed in the war. One of the blatant idiocies of this movie is it's perpetuation of the Prof. Cavor caricature of scientists based on a hopelessly outdated model. Past the time of Percival Lowell and the Wright Brothers, it became impossible for serious research into anything to be carried out simply by the lone scientist working in his basement lab or private estate.

Bounty wrote:He can't, just like he can't design an engine alone without a lab or build all the parts of a spaceship in a refugee camp - so the most likely explanation is that he did the bulk of the work before the war, sober. And it's not like a guy living in a post-apocalyptic refugee camp (a comfy one, but still) doesn't have any reason to drink.

Unless he actually completed the thing before the war, this is the worst sort of ignorant apologist tripe.

Patrick Degan wrote:Past the time of Percival Lowell and the Wright Brothers, it became impossible for serious research into anything to be carried out simply by the lone scientist working in his basement lab or private estate.

The problem may be the writers failing to distinguish between a typical inventor and a scientist. It is perfectly possible to invent novel, even world-changing things in a basement, if you have expert knowledge in the field. Many such things have been invented over the last few decades - for example it's definitely possible (though unlikely) that general AI, an extremely distruptive technology, will be invented in someone's basement. However none of these things require novel physics. New technology that requires major scientific advances, as opposed to simply competent engineering and some innovation, are indeed far beyond the reach of individuals or even small teams. However this fact does not seem to have been recognised by the average scriptwriter.

Starglider wrote:The problem may be the writers failing to distinguish between a typical inventor and a scientist. It is perfectly possible to invent novel, even world-changing things in a basement, if you have expert knowledge in the field. Many such things have been invented over the last few decades - for example it's definitely possible (though unlikely) that general AI, an extremely distruptive technology, will be invented in someone's basement. However none of these things require novel physics. New technology that requires major scientific advances, as opposed to simply competent engineering and some innovation, are indeed far beyond the reach of individuals or even small teams. However this fact does not seem to have been recognised by the average scriptwriter.

It's not just novel physics. Many inventions require vast supporting infrastructure by their nature. For example, the actual physics principles underlying nuclear fusion research are mostly 50 years old. It has become an engineering and materials science problem, and an extraordinarily expensive one at that.

The most absurd thing about the Cochrane story is that he simultaneously invented both the warp drive and a novel power generation method. By himself, in a fucking refugee camp built around an old missile silo. While drunk. Hell, even if he finished 95% of the work before the war, the last 5% would have been impossible in that context.

Darth Wong wrote:The most absurd thing about the Cochrane story is that he simultaneously invented both the warp drive and a novel power generation method.

I admit it has been a while since I watched First Contact, but was it explicitly shown that he developed an M/AM reactor for the Phoenix?

MariusRoi wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:The most absurd thing about the Cochrane story is that he simultaneously invented both the warp drive and a novel power generation method.

I admit it has been a while since I watched First Contact, but was it explicitly shown that he developed an M/AM reactor for the Phoenix?

It was powered by a "warp core" and it required "plasma conduits", so if it wasn't an M/AM reactor, it was a nuclear fusion reactor at the very least. Cobbled together in a fucking refugee camp where the buildings were lean-tos made of aluminum siding.

Darth Wong wrote:

MariusRoi wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:The most absurd thing about the Cochrane story is that he simultaneously invented both the warp drive and a novel power generation method.

I admit it has been a while since I watched First Contact, but was it explicitly shown that he developed an M/AM reactor for the Phoenix?

It was powered by a "warp core" and it required "plasma conduits", so if it wasn't an M/AM reactor, it was a nuclear fusion reactor at the very least. Cobbled together in a fucking refugee camp where the buildings were lean-tos made of aluminum siding.

Worse —parts of it were the coils from the still he made his homebrew pisswater with.

Darth Wong wrote:It was powered by a "warp core" and it required "plasma conduits", so if it wasn't an M/AM reactor, it was a nuclear fusion reactor at the very least. Cobbled together in a fucking refugee camp where the buildings were lean-tos made of aluminum siding.

Huh - it's funny what you miss. Thank you for the clarification.

At the most, Cochrane built the reactor and warp engines before the war started. Lily implies several times that the main body of the ship was thrown together after the war (i.e. her line that it took her six months to get enough metal to build the cockpit), which would have still taken an ungodly amount of work considering their working conditions.

I suppose it could have been interesting if the film revealed that Cochrane didn't in fact do that much work on the ship, and that it was Lily and a support team who did the donkey work, but got largely ignored by the history books. Just another "what if" regarding First Contact, though.

I always assumed that it was a much larger effort than it appeared and that the 'refugee camp' was more of a disguise than anything else.

A disguise against what? It was the middle of nowhere in the Montana wilderness. A research instillation that could maybe double as a fortress (particularly since that's how they're often designed in movies) would be much more ideal than a "disguise" of a shantytown.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:A disguise against what? It was the middle of nowhere in the Montana wilderness. A research instillation that could maybe double as a fortress (particularly since that's how they're often designed in movies) would be much more ideal than a "disguise" of a shantytown.

Rival factions. When they were attacked by the Borg Lilly immediately assumed it was the "Eastern Coalition", and she didn't seem all that surprised that they were under attack. They also weren't exactly in the middle of the wilderness, they were outside of Bozeman, Montana. How far exactly, I don't recall. And considering that they were using a missile silo, I would assume that there were roads leading in and out of the location, even if they were dirt.