Why are the British paranoid about official ID?

[ray245]

I was under the impression that cost was the truly objectionable factor wrt Britain.

For amazingly irrelevant private information on a national identity card, Singapore is hard to beat among developing countries with "Race" (haha) and "Religion".

There is race, but there's no religion.

Although, the main use of my IC is used to watch those rated NC-16 films.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was under the impression that cost was the truly objectionable factor wrt Britain.

For amazingly irrelevant private information on a national identity card, Singapore is hard to beat among developing countries with "Race" (haha) and "Religion".

There is race, but there's no religion.

Although, the main use of my IC is used to watch those rated NC-16 films.

Eventually, you will receive a green one. It will just remind you of National Slav.. I mean Service.

[ray245]

Just another note, putting address on your IC is really risky though, given that many lost and stolen IC have been used by others to borrow money from 'loan sharks'.

[Sea Skimmer]

If you put your address on the card, then you need a new one every time you move. That’s damn stupid if you ask me, since if the cards are supposed to be secured via a central database then the database can simply be updated. Not to mention, if means if someone steals your wallet and keys, then they would know exactly where to go.

[PeZook]

In here, the ID card contains a photo, adress, height, eye color, adress, fascisimile of your signature and both parent's names.

Personally, I'd do away with the adress part, since I agree with Skimmer - it's a product of dead legislation anyway, under which you are obliged to report to the authorities every time you move. Obviously, you then have to get a new card and pay 30 zlotys (in purchasing power, roughly equivalent to 20 USD) for it.

The very concept of a national ID card is awesome, though. There's no shortage of situations when it's supremely useful to simply produce one which clearly shows that you are who you say you are. Concerns about their cost are just plain stupid: part of the cost can get shifted to the populace, and rather than requiring everybody to buy one outright, introduce them as optional and encourage businesses to prefer them over other forms of identification (ahh, marketing )

[kinnison]

speed cameras

Sorry to pick out a single point from your list, but what's the issue with speed cameras in terms of moderating behaviour?

Isn't it obvious? He wants to drive dangerously without getting fined.

No, he wants to drive fast (or to be more accurate a little faster) without getting fined.

In the UK, dangerous driving - undertaking, tailgating, cutting in, driving at 29mph down crowded residential streets, failing to indicate, driving while yacking on a mobile phone, traffic lights drag racing etc etc - is actually getting worse, probably due to cops being pulled off traffic duty and speed cameras being substituted for people with judgement and common sense. There is also the issue of police judgement. I have been on UK motorways in conditions where 20mph was unsafe; I have also been on the same motorways in conditions (2:30 AM Sunday?) when 150mph would probably be OK. It used to be that in the former case you would be pulled over doing 50, while in the latter case doing 95 or so would still get you pulled over - but you would usually just be told not to do it again. Not any more - in the former case you would be fine, whereas in the latter case you'd have the book thrown at you.

Add to this the probability that speed cameras sometimes actually cause accidents, because people are watching the speedometer like a hawk instead of watching the road. And the fact that speed limits are often a political stunt rather than a safety issue, and the fact that cameras are often placed for revenue-raising rather than safety.

Two supporting examples: In my town, several wide, safe dual-carriageway roads have had their limit changed from 40mph to 30, because the local council decided to have a slogan about 30 being enough and to have a universal speed limit across town of 30. Driving on these roads at 30 feels like a crawl. There is also a case very close to my house - the biggest hill in town (virtually the only one, really) periodically has a mobile speed camera placed on it. Where do they place it? Naturally, right at the bottom, where a fair number of people might let their speed creep up a little due to going from top to bottom of a 150-foot hill. Said road is about 100 feet wide. This has absolutely nothing to do with safety and everything to do with revenue raising and making police crime statistics look better.

Another thing that this nonsense is doing is making ordinary, law-abiding people resent the cops - which has dangers all of its own.

[Hillary]

Thus, it is obvious that no one we regularly buy from bothers to even read the name, much less compare the signature.

Correct; people don't look at signatures. A few years ago, I saw an investigative news report (back when reporters actually investigated things) in which they tested bank cheque fraud security by writing a lot of obviously bogus cheques. One of them was actually signed "Wile E Coyote", in clearly legible handwriting. They all went through, and that was at major banks, not some gas station in the middle of nowhere.

Nothing really secretive about this - the banks don't check cheques in any detail, certainly not for small amounts and sporadically for larger ones. Hardly surprising when you consider the amount of labour that would be required to check every signature on every cheque.

If a forgery has been committed, the bank will obviously be able to go back and check whether the signature is genuine or not - if the signature is an obvious fraud, they'll return the cheque to the store that paid it in, tell them it was not taken in accordance with the correct procedure and claim the money back. The bank doesn't lose by not checking it in the first place.


As for the OP, I remember a sitcom in the 80s called "Yes, Minister" when a Euro ID-card was proposed. The minister asked his advisor what the reactions in other countries would be

"The Germans will love it, the French will ignore it and the Irish and Italians will be too chaotic to enforce it. Only the British will resent it."

My reservations of a UK ID card scheme are in line with Valdemar's - it will be a highly expensive fuck up. I do, however, accept that most of the people against it in principle oppose it because of the fear of "Big Brother".

[Ypoknons]

I have a RFID Hong Kong ID card, with my fingerprints embedded. My life is fine - I've participated in anti-government demonstrations, no hassles. In fact, my life is more than fine - crossing immigration is now automated and very fast.

[Dominus Atheos]

As many people have said, the biggest problems with the National ID program are the cost, and that it collects personal information like Health records, Tax records, and your ISP's records, collects it in one central location, and gives access to hundreds of government agencies, and tens of thousands of private companies.

So the next time you go to the bank, the teller will be able to see that you have a prescription for Viagra and that you have a subscription to Futanari-Catgirls.com.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The fact is that there's a need for a reliable photo ID card, and if not everyone intends to get a driver's license, that is a great reason to have a non-drivers-license national photo ID card. As it stands, there are plenty of places where they won't even take your credit-card if you can't show them a driver's license.

This is a non-issue in the USA. All states that I've ever lived in issue ID cards which are separate from driver's licenses and don't extend driving priveleges. They look the same and just say "not licensed to drive" on them, which obviously fucks over anyone driving illegally just as thoroughly as if they didn't have an ID at all.

[Aaron]

This is a non-issue in the USA. All states that I've ever lived in issue ID cards which are separate from driver's licenses and don't extend driving priveleges. They look the same and just say "not licensed to drive" on them, which obviously fucks over anyone driving illegally just as thoroughly as if they didn't have an ID at all.

There are actually ID cards avaiable in Ontario (and I believe the other provinces) that do what you describe, they call them LCBO ID here because there commonly used by people without drivers licenses that want to buy booze.

[Vendetta]

Personally I'm against a centralised ID database because the government will make an immense (and expensive) cock up of it and it will vastly increase the incidence of ID fraud by providing fraudsters a single easy location to target.

[Dahak]

If you put your address on the card, then you need a new one every time you move. That’s damn stupid if you ask me, since if the cards are supposed to be secured via a central database then the database can simply be updated. Not to mention, if means if someone steals your wallet and keys, then they would know exactly where to go.

No, you don't.
In Germany, your registration adress is printed on the ID card. When you move, you go to the registration office of the new town, they take the card, put the new adress on the card, stamp it and seal it again. No new card required.

[Keevan_Colton]

Personally I'm against a centralised ID database because the government will make an immense (and expensive) cock up of it and it will vastly increase the incidence of ID fraud by providing fraudsters a single easy location to target.

The mess of a system we've got right now means that it's really easy to commit fraud via the cracks...

[PeZook]

The mess of a system we've got right now means that it's really easy to commit fraud via the cracks...

Isn't it possible in the US to hijack somebody's identity using just a birth certificate or credit card statement?

Over here, you need at least one forged ID card or a sloppy official.

[Broomstick]

The mess of a system we've got right now means that it's really easy to commit fraud via the cracks...

Isn't it possible in the US to hijack somebody's identity using just a birth certificate or credit card statement?

Over here, you need at least one forged ID card or a sloppy official.

That's because your credit card statement contains a lot of other identify information.

Actually, a driver's license + social security number is the worst combination to lose to an ID fraud criminal. I used to really have to insist at the DMV that they NOT put my SS# on my driver's license (it was an "option" that used to be pushed a lot). Lose that and you're really screwed.

[ray245]

Just asking, did anyone use the ID card as a tool check for people age? Like checking for the person age before letting them buy beer and other restricted items?

[General Zod]

Just asking, did anyone use the ID card as a tool check for people age? Like checking for the person age before letting them buy beer and other restricted items?

Uhm, yes? I thought something like this would be universal in most countries.

[FSTargetDrone]

Actually, a driver's license + social security number is the worst combination to lose to an ID fraud criminal. I used to really have to insist at the DMV that they NOT put my SS# on my driver's license (it was an "option" that used to be pushed a lot). Lose that and you're really screwed.

I don't know if it's done as routine anymore, but when I was in college, my Social Security number was my Student ID number. Madness. Hopefully they've changed that policy.

[PeZook]

I don't know if it's done as routine anymore, but when I was in college, my Social Security number was my Student ID number. Madness. Hopefully they've changed that policy.

Why is the SS number so important, though? There is a similar system here (we just call it differently), but you can't actually use it to access anything. It seems common sense enough that only photo (or biometric) ID should be used to validate identity, rather than something where there's no real possibility to immediately tie it to the person providing the ID.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Just asking, did anyone use the ID card as a tool check for people age? Like checking for the person age before letting them buy beer and other restricted items?

Uhm, yes? I thought something like this would be universal in most countries.

Well, he can't drink yet.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I don't know if it's done as routine anymore, but when I was in college, my Social Security number was my Student ID number. Madness. Hopefully they've changed that policy.

Why is the SS number so important, though? There is a similar system here (we just call it differently), but you can't actually use it to access anything. It seems common sense enough that only photo (or biometric) ID should be used to validate identity, rather than something where there's no real possibility to immediately tie it to the person providing the ID.

The social security number can, in conjunction with a photo ID, be used to access pretty much anything in existence in the USA, period. Therefore, printing it on a photo ID eliminates the only diffusion of records available in the country. It would be easily possible to walk into a bank with a stolen driver's license and empty someone's accounts with no other information than what's on the ID, if the ID displayed both the person's address and social security number. Heck, SSNs are used for data recovery at a lot of places in the USA; if you lose your normal security passwords and so on for accounts, you provide your SSN and address to verify who you are.

[eyl]

If you put your address on the card, then you need a new one every time you move. That’s damn stupid if you ask me, since if the cards are supposed to be secured via a central database then the database can simply be updated. Not to mention, if means if someone steals your wallet and keys, then they would know exactly where to go.

No, you don't.
In Germany, your registration adress is printed on the ID card. When you move, you go to the registration office of the new town, they take the card, put the new adress on the card, stamp it and seal it again. No new card required.

In Israel, a two-part system is used - you have a sealed plastic card which contains name, birthdate and so on, and a paper slip with the details which are more subject to change* (address and details of spouse and minor children). If you change address, you just get the paper reprinted, while the identification card is not changed.

*You get a plastic sleeve to put both items in

[Surlethe]

Personally I'm against a centralised ID database because the government will make an immense (and expensive) cock up of it and it will vastly increase the incidence of ID fraud by providing fraudsters a single easy location to target.

Perhaps I misunderstand the continental European ID cards, but if the EU has something like that, is there a demonstrable increase in ID theft and fraud on the continent?

[Bounty]

Perhaps I misunderstand the continental European ID cards

It seems like there are two different things being discussed here: a national ID card on the one hand and a centralized ID database on the other.

To give you an idea what the former would entail in practice, the current Belgian ID card works like this:



(front: left, back: right)

The card itself has your name, a recent photo, your date and location of birth, nationality, card serial number, sex and autograph. The back holds your registry number, the place where the card was issued and the autograph of the official who issued it.

Each card also has anti-copying measures, such as a holograph-ish version of your photo.

The gold bit on the left is an encrypted microchip with a copy of the card's information, your current address and electronic certificates that confirm your identity when the card is read by the appropriate hardware. The only way to access the information is with a special card reader and a PIN.

I don't really see how a card like this does anything but make it harder to steal someone's identity. For an official to accept the card as genuine, it needs to pass visual inspection, the photo has to match, as does the autograph; the registry number, serial number and birth data can be double-checked and you need the PIN number to access the digital data.

Even if you lose the card, you can have it blocked immediately and you'll be issued a new one with a new PIN and serial number invalidating the lost or stolen one.

That's all there is to it; it's a hard-to-crack proof of identity. It's not tied to a central Database of Everything, just a standard means of proving you are who you say you are.