Enterprise vs. Concordia

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2003-01-28 05:16pm

The torp explosion from "Skin of Evil" was rated to be 100 megatons IIRC and that's on screen evidence. <<<hides in corner and hopes no-one notices>>>

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:18pm

Was is character dialogue?

Was the flash and affects consistent with a 100 megaton blast?

Are we sure the characters aren't being stupid?

Do we use one instance to prove a common pattern of seemingly even kiloton-yield torpedo impacts?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:18pm

That should be "to disprove"

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 05:20pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Was is character dialogue?

Was the flash and affects consistent with a 100 megaton blast?

Are we sure the characters aren't being stupid?

Do we use one instance to prove a common pattern of seemingly even kiloton-yield torpedo impacts?

How about three instances? Garak was going to completely blast the surface of a planet with the Defiant in just a minute or so. TDIC indicates high level as well. All are consistent with weapons at or around 100 MT.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 05:20pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Furthermore, are World War I firearms longer ranged, more powerful, and better at stopping infantry then modern rifles?

Yes, they are.

*nitpick mode*

actually, they were designed to stop charging cavalry...IE, had to be
capable of killing horses quickly...note how the Mauser 98 changed between
the wars, to become the Mauser 98K Karabine

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:25pm

Alyeska wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Was is character dialogue?

Was the flash and affects consistent with a 100 megaton blast?

Are we sure the characters aren't being stupid?

Do we use one instance to prove a common pattern of seemingly even kiloton-yield torpedo impacts?
How about three instances? Garak was going to completely blast the surface of a planet with the Defiant in just a minute or so. TDIC indicates high level as well. All are consistent with weapons at or around 100 MT.

Purpose-built weapons? Special brands?

The visual evidence still shows Q-torps in the kiloton range. Saying several megatons is actually overly generous on my part.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:25pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote: Furthermore, are World War I firearms longer ranged, more powerful, and better at stopping infantry then modern rifles?

Yes, they are.
*nitpick mode*

actually, they were designed to stop charging cavalry...IE, had to be
capable of killing horses quickly...note how the Mauser 98 changed between
the wars, to become the Mauser 98K Karabine

Nevertheless. They're saying standard anti-ship weapons that require significant target-seeking and guidance ability should be magnitudes creater than strategic weapons today in the face of almost all on-screen evidence

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 05:31pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Was is character dialogue?

Was the flash and affects consistent with a 100 megaton blast?

Are we sure the characters aren't being stupid?

Do we use one instance to prove a common pattern of seemingly even kiloton-yield torpedo impacts?
How about three instances? Garak was going to completely blast the surface of a planet with the Defiant in just a minute or so. TDIC indicates high level as well. All are consistent with weapons at or around 100 MT.
Purpose-built weapons? Special brands?

The visual evidence still shows Q-torps in the kiloton range. Saying several megatons is actually overly generous on my part.

Nope, they were using standard weapons in each instance.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:39pm

Ah. Character stupidity.

Visuals > Dialogue/Plot

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 05:43pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ah. Character stupidity.

Visuals > Dialogue/Plot

In two of the three instances the firepower is shown onscreen.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:44pm

Explain.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 05:46pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Explain.

Skin of Evil is already known. TDiC showed rather large shockwaves on the planet. While the damage was less then the shock waves, it was still in the range of stripping the planet of its crust in 1 hour with 20 ships.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:48pm

That's impossible when detonation flashes in Nemesis and elsewhere indicate kiloton-level torps.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-28 05:48pm

Alyeska wrote: Skin of Evil is already known. TDiC showed rather large shockwaves on the planet. While the damage was less then the shock waves, it was still in the range of stripping the planet of its crust in 1 hour with 20 ships.

How do you know it wasn't bullshit put up by the founders as part of their trap? Their sensors WERE being fooled if I recall correctly....didn't they
think there were assloads of founders down there before they fired?

It's been a while since I saw it...

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2003-01-28 05:49pm

They show the explosion in "Skin of Evil" and they have the Cardie/Rommie fleet in DS9 that frags the planet they thought the founders where on. Didn't see the Defient episode, so I can't speak for that one.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-28 05:50pm

And a weapon used to assault planetary surfaces has nothing to do with this thread.

(While they may have said it was the same weapon, it is not consistent w/ kiloton-range torp blasts seen numerous times, and since it is the exception and a weapon used to assault the ground, it is irrelevent.)

On screen evidence of torpedo detonations when fired at other warships points to kiloton-range weapons.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2003-01-28 05:50pm

Sorry, my reply was late I guess.

As far as bullshit from the founders, you actually see the explosions on the surface of the planet, it's not just bad sensor readings.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 05:51pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Skin of Evil is already known. TDiC showed rather large shockwaves on the planet. While the damage was less then the shock waves, it was still in the range of stripping the planet of its crust in 1 hour with 20 ships.
How do you know it wasn't bullshit put up by the founders as part of their trap? Their sensors WERE being fooled if I recall correctly....didn't they
think there were assloads of founders down there before they fired?

It's been a while since I saw it...

I am not talking about the sensor readings. Besides, I already explained the sensors readings actually fit the original pre-mission expectations if you look at it properly. TDiC puts forth that 20 ships (Romulan and Cardassian) can strip a planet of its crust in 1 hour.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 05:52pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And a weapon used to assault planetary surfaces has nothing to do with this thread.

(While they may have said it was the same weapon, it is not consistent w/ kiloton-range torp blasts seen numerous times, and since it is the exception and a weapon used to assault the ground, it is irrelevent.)

On screen evidence of torpedo detonations when fired at other warships points to kiloton-range weapons.

On screen space combat does not indicate any firepower levels at all. What we have is onscreen firepower contradictions between Peagsus, Night Terrors, TDiC, Skin of Evil, and Broken Link.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-28 08:56pm

so whats next? let me guess, you think that there is no cannon evidence to prove that a soverign class warp core produces any more power than a general electric fission reactor?

i cant take you seriously anymore, i mean one minute you blast obvious trekkie fanboy wank stats and the next you belch out your own.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-28 09:00pm

Alyeska wrote:I am not talking about the sensor readings. Besides, I already explained the sensors readings actually fit the original pre-mission expectations if you look at it properly. TDiC puts forth that 20 ships (Romulan and Cardassian) can strip a planet of its crust in 1 hour.

Based on one of several possible semantic interpretations. The visuals, on the other hand, contradict that interpretation.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 09:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I am not talking about the sensor readings. Besides, I already explained the sensors readings actually fit the original pre-mission expectations if you look at it properly. TDiC puts forth that 20 ships (Romulan and Cardassian) can strip a planet of its crust in 1 hour.
Based on one of several possible semantic interpretations. The visuals, on the other hand, contradict that interpretation.

WHICH visuals?

Bob McDob · Post by **Bob McDob** » 2003-01-28 09:34pm

Alyeska wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:The Enterprise could easily stay out of range of the Concordia while picking off the Concordia's fighters. From there it just takes long range bombardment.
Not hardly. Enough of the fighters will get through to maul the Ent-E. The fighter carry some damn big torpedoes, hundreds of megatons by most calcs, and some will get through.
The Enterprise can outrun said fighters and manuever clear of missile locks. Only the bombers are a threat and they can only launch 1 torpedo at a time. Sending out Epees with torpedoes take retrofiting the fighter, something they don't have time for. There is also the speed at which the Concordia can launch its fighters, not THAT fast.

Obviously you've never linked your torpedoes while firing

Shame, you can take out ships faster that way.

I don't recall where it says Epees have to be retrofitted ... obviously they're sitting ducks, but I think they can handle it.

Alyeska wrote:
Coaan wrote:Just how fast do you think the enterprise can move at? not THAT fast..
Yes, it would outrun the fighters. WC fighters at full after burner can't even make 1km per second.

(sigh)

Fighters can move at many times 1km per second. They just need to slow to maneuver.

Furthermore, if you want to get anal, the Epee can move at 1100mps.

apocolypse wrote:The torp explosion from "Skin of Evil" was rated to be 100 megatons IIRC and that's on screen evidence. <<<hides in corner and hopes no-one notices>>>

WC fighters have 3.6 megaton lasers by some estimates.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-28 09:42pm

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I am not talking about the sensor readings. Besides, I already explained the sensors readings actually fit the original pre-mission expectations if you look at it properly. TDiC puts forth that 20 ships (Romulan and Cardassian) can strip a planet of its crust in 1 hour.
Based on one of several possible semantic interpretations. The visuals, on the other hand, contradict that interpretation.
WHICH visuals?

The ones in which persistent Sun-bright fireballs were not seen. The ones in which no surface ejecta were seen. The ones in which no glowing mantle was seen.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-28 09:44pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Based on one of several possible semantic interpretations. The visuals, on the other hand, contradict that interpretation.
WHICH visuals?
The ones in which persistent Sun-bright fireballs were not seen. The ones in which no surface ejecta were seen. The ones in which no glowing mantle was seen.

They only got to fire a single volley. And I am not supporting the sensor material per say. I am not claiming they destroyed 30% of the planets entire crust. I am saying they destroyed 30% of the crust in their targeted area but it would still take them 1 hour. Besides, when is their going to be ejecta if their weapons are primarily NDF based?