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NecronLord wrote:Are you suggesting the 'Grand Army of the Republic' was the Jedi's private army¹ before that, and that Palpatine wasn't allowed to set them political level objectives?

Absolutely not, merely that the novelization establishes the following:
* That the GAR was commanded by, and reported to, the Jedi Council

* That the Jedi Council acted on directions from the Senate and the novelization also explicitly states that the Jedi reported directly to the Senate and not to the Supreme Chancellor

* That the Supreme Commander, before the amendment to the Security Act, personally didn't have any power over the Jedi Council.

NecronLord wrote:Otherwise, the most one can argue is that he claimed the title of supreme commander and direct strategic control after the Battle of Coruscant. Before that, Palpatine was clearly directing the Army, although the jedi resented it, at some level. Witness his appointment of Anakin as commander of the fighter forces over Muunilist in the Clone Wars season one.

Yes, if we continue to take the ROTS novelization as an example, it does suggest that the chain of command was somewhat diffuse.

NecronLord wrote:He may well have held that title from the commissioning of the army, or the Order 65 quote we've got may be from a time after Palpatine assumed the office of Supreme Commander.

Agreed.

NecronLord wrote:Never mind that the RotS novel itself is an example of the poor continuity. We've already had it established that the Jedi are under the de facto direction of the Chancellor's office, from the opening crawl of TPM ("While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...")

Yes, that is true, but has the exact circumstances of that been established?

AFAIK Chancellor Valorum had to sent Qui-Gonn Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi in secret, because the Jedi were answerable to the Senate and not the SupremeChancellor at that time.

Mange wrote:Yes, that is true, but has the exact circumstances of that been established?

Not to my knowledge. Which is why I don't really have a problem with it. Another potential strange bit about the political system isn't bad. Repeatedly stating United States Civil War era troop number levels... That's retarded. Saying Palpatine qualifies as supreme commander. Nah.

FTeik wrote:AFAIK Chancellor Valorum had to sent Qui-Gonn Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi in secret, because the Jedi were answerable to the Senate and not the SupremeChancellor at that time.

That's a viable interpretation I suppose, though it is contradicted by (most) EU sources. They report to the justice department, who reports to the chancellor, who reports to the senate.

NecronLord wrote:

Mange wrote:Yes, that is true, but has the exact circumstances of that been established?

Not to my knowledge. Which is why I don't really have a problem with it. Another potential strange bit about the political system isn't bad. Repeatedly stating United States Civil War era troop number levels... That's retarded. Saying Palpatine qualifies as supreme commander. Nah.

Well, that's your opinion, but I think the higher canon is pretty clear on how the GAR was directed and the level of responsibility between the Office of the Supreme Chancellor visavi the Jedi Council and the GAR (not to mention that it changes the dynamics between the Jedi and Chancellor if the latter had been Supreme Commander).

The list of orders seem to imply that the Chancellor is titled "Supreme Commander", but the Jedi Order has direct control over the military:

Contingency Orders

Order 66 wrote: In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after recieving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force,and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established.

VT-16 wrote:The list of orders seem to imply that the Chancellor is titled "Supreme Commander", but the Jedi Order has direct control over the military:

Contingency Orders

Order 66 wrote: In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after recieving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force,and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established.

Yes, hence the contradiction with the novelization which I've been going on about :

ROTS novelization pg 254 (softcover) wrote:[Anakin] "The constitutional amendment bringing the Jedi under the Chancellor's Office naturally includes troops commanded by Jedi. Palpatine is now Supreme Commander of the Grand Army of the Republic."

Following up on this discussion re: the GAR and the Jedi. An idea struck me as I thought about the dialogue surrounding the Clone army and its creation in AOTC. What if the GAR is really an asset of the Jedi's loaned to the Republic the same way the Jedi loan their own skills to assist the Republic when needed?

The GAR was created using Jedi funds not Republic monies (Sifo Dyas)

The GAR was viewed as as expendable asset not comprised of sentient beings with rights - See discussion of the clones as objects by both Obi Wan and Tan Wi when she's giving him the tour. They are viewed as units that will perform better than droids. Also see Obi Wan's attitude to the clones dying in the opening of ROTS, very cavalier and non chalant, business like as if he were talking about expended ammunition and not people.

Yoda grabs the Clone Army withhout consulting the Senate or anyone in the Republic, launching a preemptive strike that drags the Republic into war. The Jedi had absolute control over the Clone Army from the start. It was their army which they paid for then promptly lent to the Republic cause.

I think this combination of Jedi payment and the Clones viewed as assets and not people provide a disturbing thought that the clone army was viewed as a Jedi asset, like a gunship or a Jedi fighter that they allowed the Republic to then use which would also help explain the monopoly of Jedi officers commanding the Clone Army - the GAR is a personal Jedi Army on loan.

Stravo wrote:Following up on this discussion re: the GAR and the Jedi. An idea struck me as I thought about the dialogue surrounding the Clone army and its creation in AOTC. What if the GAR is really an asset of the Jedi's loaned to the Republic the same way the Jedi loan their own skills to assist the Republic when needed?

The GAR was created using Jedi funds not Republic monies (Sifo Dyas)

The GAR was viewed as as expendable asset not comprised of sentient beings with rights - See discussion of the clones as objects by both Obi Wan and Tan Wi when she's giving him the tour. They are viewed as units that will perform better than droids. Also see Obi Wan's attitude to the clones dying in the opening of ROTS, very cavalier and non chalant, business like as if he were talking about expended ammunition and not people.

Yoda grabs the Clone Army withhout consulting the Senate or anyone in the Republic, launching a preemptive strike that drags the Republic into war. The Jedi had absolute control over the Clone Army from the start. It was their army which they paid for then promptly lent to the Republic cause.

I think this combination of Jedi payment and the Clones viewed as assets and not people provide a disturbing thought that the clone army was viewed as a Jedi asset, like a gunship or a Jedi fighter that they allowed the Republic to then use which would also help explain the monopoly of Jedi officers commanding the Clone Army - the GAR is a personal Jedi Army on loan.

A little bit backwards - the Jedi Order, according to the Power of the Jedi sourcebook from Wizards of the Coast, is funded by the Republic and their vessels, equipment etc. are on loan from the Republic. Ergo, this would mean that Master Sifo-Dyas used Republic funds allocated to the Jedi Order to raise an army for the Republic. Of course how such transaction remained hidden is at anyone's guess - either the Jedi Order's funds are staggering to the extreme or they have really sloppy accounting department.

Of course, it IS a possibility that the Kaminoans first created the army and THEN expected the payment, although considering the scope of the project they undertook there must have been some sort of pre-payment, or the Kaminoans' sense of business can only be compared to that of Jar Jar Binks's famed wisdom.

Actually, it was the Jedi who encouraged the Clones to take on individual names. Regardless, you forgot where the Jedi gets their funds from, it's called the Senate and it's in the form of a bank account that acts like a blank check.

General Schatten wrote:Actually, it was the Jedi who encouraged the Clones to take on individual names. Regardless, you forgot where the Jedi gets their funds from, it's called the Senate and it's in the form of a bank account that acts like a blank check.

Didn't the payment come from Dooku's personal fortune that he lent to Sifo Dyas?

Stravo wrote:

General Schatten wrote:Actually, it was the Jedi who encouraged the Clones to take on individual names. Regardless, you forgot where the Jedi gets their funds from, it's called the Senate and it's in the form of a bank account that acts like a blank check.

Didn't the payment come from Dooku's personal fortune that he lent to Sifo Dyas?

Not that I can remember, do you have a quote or something?

General Schatten wrote:

Stravo wrote:

General Schatten wrote:Actually, it was the Jedi who encouraged the Clones to take on individual names. Regardless, you forgot where the Jedi gets their funds from, it's called the Senate and it's in the form of a bank account that acts like a blank check.

Didn't the payment come from Dooku's personal fortune that he lent to Sifo Dyas?

Not that I can remember, do you have a quote or something?

I thought I read somewhere - the EU novel with Yoda v. Dooku perhaps? - that Dooku was approached by Sifo Dyas who warned him that he had visions of a great danger to the Republic and he wanted to commission an army in secret and since Dooku was one of the richest men in the galaxy Sifo Dyas approached him appealing to their friendship to help him with the money. Dooku then killed Dyas.

I could of course be way off as this is from memory from an EU source I can't remember so I would appreciate it if anyone could clear that up for me.

The intial payments for the Clone Army came from Dooku in his Tyranus guise, that is alluded to in AoTC. Dark Rendezvous further depicts Dooku continuing to fund the clone Army that Sifo Dyas ordered under his Tyranus alias.

Although how Sifo Dyas was going to pay for the Clone Army himself I am unsure, but he probably had a way of funneling money from somewhere the Jedi or he himself had access to, unlikely that it was the Senate.