Whats this I hear about Revan?

[Alexian Cale]

Obi-Wan Kenobi hasn't demonstrated the prowess to deflect Force lightning, but I do believe that Vaapad allows Windu to do so -- with a lightsaber, mind you.

Is that supposed to be considered deflection? It was always my conclusion that he used his lightsaber to absorb the blast, not deflect it or repulse it.

[Terralthra]

Obi-Wan Kenobi hasn't demonstrated the prowess to deflect Force lightning, but I do believe that Vaapad allows Windu to do so -- with a lightsaber, mind you.

Is that supposed to be considered deflection? It was always my conclusion that he used his lightsaber to absorb the blast, not deflect it or repulse it.

Yes, which is why I wrote "deflected/difused".

[Alexian Cale]

Right.

But you responded to where I said Obi-Wan did not "deflect" the lightning. He didn't. He absorbed/diffused it, like Havokeff said.

[Terralthra]

Right.

But you responded to where I said Obi-Wan did not "deflect" the lightning. He didn't. He absorbed/diffused it, like Havokeff said.

He actually said deflect/diffuse, at which point you chose to take only one of those terms, and say Obi-Wan couldn't do it. Stop trying to split hairs. The lightning was headed for Obi-Wan, then he did something that made it not hit him.

[wjs7744]

TC Pilot
Ah, I see. I didn't know Lucas had made any statements about the prophetic stuff, and was going of inferences from the films. As for the Palpatine/Windu fight, I'm pretty sure Anakin was the one to disarm Mace Windu, not Palpatine. Sure Palpatine finished him off, but he would have been killed if Anakin hadn't showed up. In any case, Palpatine alone couldn't beat Mace Windu. As for the Yoda quote, it's interesting but hardly enough to conclude that Palpatine is invincible.

Mace and Obi-Wan did not absorb any Force lightning, they deflected/difused it with their lightsabers. Yoda IIRC is the only Jedi we EVER see actually absorb the lightning. He was also able to deflect it with out a lightsaber as well.

People often make a big deal about Yoda deflecting lightning with his bare hands, but they always seem to forget that the reason he is unarmed is because Palpatine just blasted his lightsaber out of his hands. Fighting unarmed is still impressive, but when you consider that it's because he had just been disarmed it makes Palpatine even more so. After all, neither Mace nor Obi-Wan ever failed to do so either.

[Havok]

TC Pilot
Ah, I see. I didn't know Lucas had made any statements about the prophetic stuff, and was going of inferences from the films. As for the Palpatine/Windu fight, I'm pretty sure Anakin was the one to disarm Mace Windu, not Palpatine. Sure Palpatine finished him off, but he would have been killed if Anakin hadn't showed up. In any case, Palpatine alone couldn't beat Mace Windu. As for the Yoda quote, it's interesting but hardly enough to conclude that Palpatine is invincible.

Mace and Obi-Wan did not absorb any Force lightning, they deflected/difused it with their lightsabers. Yoda IIRC is the only Jedi we EVER see actually absorb the lightning. He was also able to deflect it with out a lightsaber as well.

People often make a big deal about Yoda deflecting lightning with his bare hands, but they always seem to forget that the reason he is unarmed is because Palpatine just blasted his lightsaber out of his hands. Fighting unarmed is still impressive, but when you consider that it's because he had just been disarmed it makes Palpatine even more so. After all, neither Mace nor Obi-Wan ever failed to do so either.

Well that would be a great rebuttal if Yoda hadn't already been shown deflecting and absorbing Force Lightning with his bare hand, BEFORE he even drew his lightsaber, against Count Dooku in AOTC. I suppose you could make the argument that Dooku's lightning isn't as powerfull as Sidious's but, then you still have the fact that Yoda was still able to absorb it later on and in the final fight where you know Palpatine is holding nothing back.
Yes Palpatine disarmed Yoda, but that doesn't change the fact that Yoda, without a lightsaber, still had a defense against FL. NO ONE else, IIRC, is shown to have that ability.

[PREDATOR490]

Is Revan as she ?

What would be the standing on Revan fighting certain fights alone ?
I remember at least 2 battles with Revan that had his companions incapacitated. Once by Bastila on the Starforge and the other on Dantooine by Juhunni. It is obvious the game designers wanted you to be left to fight alone but interms of actually gleaning a semblence of power of Revan then we have Revan being able to somehow overcome the stasis fields of a Starforge boosted Bastilla where as two other Jedi could not.

Additionally, should Revan really be regarded as fighting Malak alone rather than having Bastilla open the damn door she closed and undo her stasis trick ?

Carth basically said Revan won via an element of brutality that the other Republic leadership couldnt imitate somehow. Given Revan turns to the darkside I'm leaning towards the idea that Revan's major advantage in these fights comes down to force predictions and disregard of moral boundries of the Republic. Not that it lessons his victory any less but the simple fact is 'Dark Revan' and 'Character Revan' are two seperate personnalities so the kind of strategic brilliance Revan had in the Mandalorian wars may not apply to any comparison of post KOTOR Revan.

After all is said and done, if Revan is such a master strategist then I would envision him gathering forces then thumping Palpatine or Yoda from orbit or put him into a position where he has the advantage. In a level playing field one-on-one Revan is severely outmatched. I would think the Exile has a better chance of killing Yoda or Palpatine due to this supposed special ability he has of absorbing the power of those around him or something. That said, Kreia might be able to pull if off as well since she basically put down three battle ready Jedi masters with a swipe of her purple lightning.

[NecronLord]

Is Revan as she ?

Canonically, no. But as a player-character, you can decide.

[TC Pilot]

As for the Palpatine/Windu fight, I'm pretty sure Anakin was the one to disarm Mace Windu, not Palpatine.

Palpatine was also the one who almost forced Windu's lightsaber back into his face before he "gave out" from being "too weak." Of course, that didn't stop him moments later from unleashing a lethal storm of lightning while screaming "unlimited power" before throwing him out the window.

Sure Palpatine finished him off, but he would have been killed if Anakin hadn't showed up.

It's just as easy to counter that Palpatine would never have put himself in that situation if Anakin had never shown up (as in, he threw the fight).

As for the Yoda quote, it's interesting but hardly enough to conclude that Palpatine is invincible.

Actually, yes it does. Try reading it again.

[Havok]

To be fair, I think that the quote(s) says more about the Jedi in it's current incarnation, Yoda included, never being able to defeat the current incarnation of the Sith, more than it says that Palpatine is invincible. Since, he obviously was not.

What I find interesting about the quote is how it says the Sith adapted by learning, not only their ways, but the ways of the Jedi as well. Almost insinuating that because the Jedi didn't adapt the ways of the Sith, they are at a disadvantage.

[Sarevok]

After all is said and done, if Revan is such a master strategist then I would envision him gathering forces then thumping Palpatine or Yoda from orbit or put him into a position where he has the advantage. In a level playing field one-on-one Revan is severely outmatched. I would think the Exile has a better chance of killing Yoda or Palpatine due to this supposed special ability he has of absorbing the power of those around him or something. That said, Kreia might be able to pull if off as well since she basically put down three battle ready Jedi masters with a swipe of her purple lightning.

Master strategist because he had a few ships ? How many examples of random dudes with fleets causing trouble we have seen in EU again ? That he needed an infinite resource cheat code via the starforge greatly diminish his claims. Sidious brought down the Republic within. Revan needed cheat codes to beat the game because he was not producing enough ships.

[TC Pilot]

To be fair, I think that the quote(s) says more about the Jedi in it's current incarnation, Yoda included, never being able to defeat the current incarnation of the Sith,

I repeat:

This truth; that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever know...

more than it says that Palpatine is invincible. Since, he obviously was not.

I suggest you read this thread before jumping in, particularly the parts involving this topic.

[Alexian Cale]

TC Pilot is very much correct, the omniscient narrator of the novelization -- a G-canon source -- explicitly states that Master Yoda was not only the most powerful Jedi in history, as of Revenge of the Sith, but also the most powerful foe "the darkness had ever known", which would include any Force-user who had ever opposed the dark side, regardless of affiliation with the light side of the Force. Darth Revan clearly doesn't come up to par, though I could easily conceive him being on par with the likes of Count Dooku. Just not quite on Yoda's own level.

[PREDATOR490]

Master strategist because he had a few ships ? How many examples of random dudes with fleets causing trouble we have seen in EU again ? That he needed an infinite resource cheat code via the starforge greatly diminish his claims. Sidious brought down the Republic within. Revan needed cheat codes to beat the game because he was not producing enough ships.

Master strategist because he supposedly turned the outset of an entire war on his own WITHOUT the Starforge and it is evident he found the Starforge later. He then breaks hundreds of Jedi including masters from what has been stated earlier so he clearly has something going for him both mentally and in the force for him to be able to kick the shit out of the Republic, including the desperate Jedi masters on Dantooine who had to rely on the special ability of Bastilla to stand a hope of winning.

You seem to have missed the part where Revan was also avoiding doing considerable damage to the Republic, favouring military targets at the sake of infrastructure which entails a lot more effort to do but even then he was WINNING quite soundly from all accounts. If Malak hadnt backstabbed Revan the theory is he would have broke Bastilla then raped the Republic with Bastilla's 'super meditation' trick on his side. I dont much doubt that theory either since the Republic wouldnt even be able to attack the Starforge.

Is there any known fact that Yoda is even aware of the events that occured four thousand years ago for his statements to sweep over Revan and his era in regards to being the most powerful force user ?
Using the quote of Yoda saying he is the greatest enemy the darkside has ever known dosent really work if your putting DARTH Revan against Sidious since he aint gonna be an "avatar of the light" then. In which case, I expect Revan will be just as likely to hit Palpatine with lightning, force storms, funky force drain shit and his magicly force enchanted equipment.
Bottom line is: Making any attempt at drawing a match up between a game character like Revan and the movies is really, REALLY subjective given the disparity between the movies and game. Like I said before though, the Exile or Kreia is more likely to be able to be the most powerful force user ever due to the 'wierdness' they have going on with the force.

[Tiriol]

Is there any known fact that Yoda is even aware of the events that occured four thousand years ago for his statements to sweep over Revan and his era in regards to being the most powerful force user ?

It is not Master Yoda making such claims; it is the omniscient narrator of the Revenge of the Sith, as has been pointed out before.

[Darth Yoshi]

The passage reads like it was written with a limited omniscient perspective, though. Wouldn't that limit the narration to Yoda's own perceptions?

[Darth Fanboy]

The passage reads like it was written with a limited omniscient perspective, though. Wouldn't that limit the narration to Yoda's own perceptions?

I don't think so, Stover uses a perspective early on (during the entrance of Anakin and Obi Wan and describing their history) in the novel that doesn't seem to be so limited.

[Darth Yoshi]

Fair enough. I only thought so because the EU is predominately written in that perspective.

[PREDATOR490]

Even if it is written from a completely 'omnicient perspective' that doesnt automatically means it is correct. Does Stover know about the events of KOTOR 1 & 2 for his comparrison to hold merit ?
Does this "perspective" actually reference the timeframe of Revan and co. in the book for us to draw the conclusion that when he makes this claim it does extend that far ?

Before someone wants to bitch and moan about the writer being always right then I would point out the issues with Miss Traviss and her writing woes on the Star Wars EU. Regardless, that quote looks like it is coming from Yoda's perspective which makes it's validity entirely dependant on wether or not he knows about Revan's time period for the claim to hold true.

[TC Pilot]

According to the same book, the Jedi Temple has archives on "billions" of Jedi since the Order's founding 25,000 BBY. I don't see why Revan would be absent.

And the difference between Stover's claim that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever and Traviss' 3 million clones is that one happens to be directly contradicted on at least one occassion and is also completely inconsistent with any semblance of scale and rationality. I'll let you guess which one that is.

[PREDATOR490]

According to the same book, the Jedi Temple has archives on "billions" of Jedi since the Order's founding 25,000 BBY. I don't see why Revan would be absent.

I thought KOTOR 2 said the Jedi had all been wiped much like Luke's time period. I distinctly remember Kreia saying the halls of the Jedi temple on Coruscant had been left empty of Jedi in the years following Revan's actions. If that is the case then I would expect the archives to be incomplete or not exist at all if no Jedi are within the Coruscant temple.
Once again the overall outcome of KOTOR 2 depends on the ending since if the Exile went darkside by canon he killed the few remaining Jedi or if it is lightside Kreia killed them. Either way though the Exile supposedly went off after Revan and the band of pals he recruited all go their own seperate ways.

I would be rather interested to see what these archives actually say about the Exile more than Revan cause they left that story largely incomplete. I still find myself confused as hell by the Jedi Masters about to massacre the guy who has spent the entire game saving their asses.

[TC Pilot]

I thought KOTOR 2 said the Jedi had all been wiped much like Luke's time period.

Yes, and? They were wiped out in a war Revan started. Or do you think that detail would have been missed by historians?

I distinctly remember Kreia saying the halls of the Jedi temple on Coruscant had been left empty of Jedi in the years following Revan's actions.

Yes, and Atris did a good job preserving all that information.

If that is the case then I would expect the archives to be incomplete or not exist at all if no Jedi are within the Coruscant temple.

Again, we're not talking about Revan the Insignificant Agricorps Padawan, we're talking about Revan "Republic general, war hero, Sith Lord, Destroyer of Jedi."

I still find myself confused as hell by the Jedi Masters about to massacre the guy who has spent the entire game saving their asses.

The Jedi Masters only attack the Exile if he killed at least one of them, which is understandable.

[Tiriol]

I would be rather interested to see what these archives actually say about the Exile more than Revan cause they left that story largely incomplete. I still find myself confused as hell by the Jedi Masters about to massacre the guy who has spent the entire game saving their asses.

The three Jedi Masters gathered on Dantooine didn't intend to kill the Exile, but to cut her off from the Force. They had recognized the danger she posed as a living wound in the Force and her almost parasitic nature (distantly similar to Lord Nihilus) and apparently feared that the Exile might throw the balance of the Force completely out of the proverbial window, if she would retain her connection.

[Baal]

Certainly, though I don't know what page number this is from.

This truth; that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devestatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever know...
just-
didn't-
have it.

He never had it. He lost before he started. He lost before he was born.

EDIT- I found more

"The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the force but jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millenium training to refight the last war.
The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become darks own weapon?

He knew at that instant, that this insight, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.
Hmmnnn, Yoda thought. A problem this is......."

For this really to be true we would really have to see Palpy wipe the floor with Yoda with no real effort. At no point in the battle should there be a chance where just a little change in luck means that Yoday wins.

But we dont see that. What we see is Palpy fleeing in the beginning. We see him surprised. We also see him lose the final dark lightning exchange between him and Yoda. If there positions had been physically reversed with Yoda back to the wall and Palpy back to open air then Palpy would have gone flying and falling and losing.

For Yoda to have NEVER had a chance which is from the novel not the movie then Palpy has to so dominate the fight that we can see that no matter what happens Palpy can do nothing but win.

If you were watching the same fight in the movie that I was watching then it is obvious that Palpy winning was obvious throughout the fight.

[Baal]

As for the Palpatine/Windu fight, I'm pretty sure Anakin was the one to disarm Mace Windu, not Palpatine.

Palpatine was also the one who almost forced Windu's lightsaber back into his face before he "gave out" from being "too weak." Of course, that didn't stop him moments later from unleashing a lethal storm of lightning while screaming "unlimited power" before throwing him out the window.

We also know that the Dark Side feeds on raw emotion. Right before Palpy screams "Unlimited Power!!!" he watches Anakin snip of Mace's arm. AT that moment all of Palpys plan come to fruition as the Chosen One turns to his side as he has worked at slowly for how long?

I am thinking Palpy got himself a bit of wood when that happened and if as has always been said the Dark Side runs on emotion and confidence then Palpy sure had a major boost to power his Force Lightning.