Top 5 technologies to use against the Empire

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2003-02-23 01:51am

1. Time Travel....opps its considered copout here.

Lets just say the capacity to reverse engineer.....nope

sigh

But can the empire hit something at warp? The Feds can just use regular war to point blank range than fire off torpedos and warp out while leaving c speed TL behind.

Ren · Post by **Ren** » 2003-02-23 02:02am

SWPIGWANG wrote:But can the empire hit something at warp? The Feds can just use regular war to point blank range than fire off torpedos and warp out while leaving c speed TL behind.

If they could do this then they would do this against the other power's in their uninverse and battles would be a matter of hopping in hoping their still their, firing your weapons, and hopping out. They don't so I doubt that they can, they may be able to hop into point blank range and fire off a salvo of torpedos but those won't hurt an ISD and they are going to get creamed by the counter attack.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-23 03:24am

I like the way most Trekkie tactical geniuses assume an ISD will just sit passively still while they try things on it.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-23 03:28am

SWPIGWANG wrote:1. Time Travel....opps its considered copout here.

Lets just say the capacity to reverse engineer.....nope

Rapid reverse engineering is a load of shit. It took months for the US Army to reserve engineer a damn Soviet pontoon bridge!

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-02-23 08:23am

AdmiralKanos wrote:I like the way most Trekkie tactical geniuses assume an ISD will just sit passively still while they try things on it.

I've analyzed this phenommenon in oh ... two seconds and come up with my best explanation:

Since the most scary enemy know to Trekkies is the Borg, they naturally think that the Empire will be as tactically brain dead as the Borg. How many times have we seen the Borg just sit there while the Feds try things out on it? Funky deflector dish conversions, beaming aboard and having a look around etc etc.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-23 09:57am

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I still think my idea is the best. Using the threat of weapons of mass destruction, the UFP can have an uneasy Cold War type peace with the Empire. Sure, the UFP couldn't win a war, but the price of taking down the UFP would not be worth the cost to the Empire.
You're assuming that every single ship hits every single target in a timely fashion with zero casualties despite no method of achieving that goal, because their ships can't even hold together under the strain of slipstream travel. I don't see how that kind of Hail Mary strategy can be remotely comparable to a simple surrender in terms of viability.
That means Slipstream drives and Trilithium torpedoes are the best by for the Federation. With these weapons war can be prevented, or atleast stalled for a significant period of time. With 12,000+ possible ships to use to move Trillithium weapons the Empire would loose possibly 12,000+ systems just to take down 150 core worlds and another few hundred colonies. Its just not worth it to the Empire to waste that much in resources just to take down a handful of systems.
More like 2 or 3 systems for the Empire at most, and that's assuming the ships don't get blown away in transit as they crawl along at whatever speed they can manage without being torn apart.

Might as well add the fact that Trilithium torpedoes are a lost tech.

Come on Mike, what I am saying assumes two things. First, workable high speed quantum slipstream drives can be handed out fleet wide. That means no more speed problem. Second, Trilithium torpedoes are also handed out fleet wide. Under those two conditions then my scenario works.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-02-23 10:24am

Uh, didn't Slipstream cause Voyager to spin out of control and die?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-23 11:19am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Uh, didn't Slipstream cause Voyager to spin out of control and die?

Yes, however that fact is not imediately pertinent to what I am saying.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-23 01:04pm

How will they know where they're going in the GFFA, Alyeska?

They won't be able to find targets without scouting. They won't be able to scout without alerting the Empire.

There's no way they can identify a bunch of targets and execute a rapid blitz like you're talking about then call up Imperial High Command and try and negotiate out a MAD policy.

The Empire will discover you while you scout for targets, and BDZ your planets.

If you don't scout, you'll hardly find enough targets by simply wandering about, you might hit two or three insignificant systems, at which point the entire fleet is dispatched to that general region, and your ships are hunted down and destroyed.

Once the wormhole was discovered, the Empire would, again, BDZ their planets. Your concept is simply unrealistic because it can't get to the stage you're talking about without fucking up.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 01:14pm

Alyeska, what I'm trying to say is that even if you COULD hand out slipstream and trilithium torpedoes fleet-wide, it won't do you any good because their ships lack the support technologies required to make it work. It would be like sticking a 5,000 horsepower motor into a VW bug; you would just tear the frame and transmission to shreds. You can hardly just dismiss it as an irrelevancy; there are no quick fixes.

Your problem is that you're fixated on an unrealistic scenario of MAD, which requires roughly equal capacity for destruction. They simply can't match the Empire's capabilities in this regard, since the Empire can deliver far more swift and total destruction than they can (I reiterate: the extermination of every man, woman, and child in the entire Federation in an hour, while even a working slipstream takes months just to reach target, disregarding the problems). Moreover, planetary annihilation is hardly the Empire's only option; they can invade conventionally, thus forcing the Feds' forces to stay in home territory and try to fight them conventionally (or perhaps you think they would just abandon the fight in the hopes of eventually executing this scenario of yours).

Your problem is that you are desperately trying to find ways for them to actually prevent Imperial occupation, when you should be looking at what techs they could use in order to fight a prolonged and effective guerilla war afterwards, thus making the Empire think it's not worth the bother.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-23 03:14pm

Darth Wong wrote:Alyeska, what I'm trying to say is that even if you COULD hand out slipstream and trilithium torpedoes fleet-wide, it won't do you any good because their ships lack the support technologies required to make it work. It would be like sticking a 5,000 horsepower motor into a VW bug; you would just tear the frame and transmission to shreds. You can hardly just dismiss it as an irrelevancy; there are no quick fixes.

Your problem is that you're fixated on an unrealistic scenario of MAD, which requires roughly equal capacity for destruction. They simply can't match the Empire's capabilities in this regard, since the Empire can deliver far more swift and total destruction than they can (I reiterate: the extermination of every man, woman, and child in the entire Federation in an hour, while even a working slipstream takes months just to reach target, disregarding the problems). Moreover, planetary annihilation is hardly the Empire's only option; they can invade conventionally, thus forcing the Feds' forces to stay in home territory and try to fight them conventionally (or perhaps you think they would just abandon the fight in the hopes of eventually executing this scenario of yours).

Your problem is that you are desperately trying to find ways for them to actually prevent Imperial occupation, when you should be looking at what techs they could use in order to fight a prolonged and effective guerilla war afterwards, thus making the Empire think it's not worth the bother.

Mike, I already stated the preconditions for the technology. I stated it was issued fleet wide and that it worked. I stated that it uses the fastest known Slipstream, the type that got Voyager home in less then an hour.

I know the Federation can't defeat the Empire and that the Empire could crush the Federation. However under the situation set up the Federation would be able to cause more damage to the Empire then it would be worth to the Empire to destroy the Federation.

Think about it this way. You got 50 snipers in the trees against 50,000 soldiers with tanks, APCs, artillery, etc... These 50 snipers can kill the 50 most important generals and other superior officers prior to their own death. Sure the group of 50,000 can win, but those in charge are unwilling to sacrafice their lives just to win.

If the Federation had working drive systems on their ships (as in they can handle the speed and go the fastest known Slip stream speed) and could deploy the torpedoes, a MAD like situation would occur.

Illuminatus Primus:

Yes indeed the Federation would have to scout the targets first, and that would possibly be seen as an invassion or a threat. Then again the Empire also has to scout out its targets first. With both sides having a comparable drive system, this would not take THAT long. If the Federation scouts the Empire, they get struck down. If the Empire attempts to scout the Federation the Federation would say "Stop or else", if the Empire continued then a Federation ship would find the closest Imperial planet (probably a small colony) and make a demonstration again saying "stop or else". MAD ensues because neither side can gain a positive victory. Eventually trade comences between the two groups and maps of the known Imperial planets find its way into Federation hands while maps of the Known Federation planets/targets finds its way into Imperial hands. Neither side wants to attack the other because of the potential risks. The Federation attacks and it gets wiped out. The Empire attacks and it trades upwards of 12,000 core systems to take down ~1,000 Federation planets and minor colonies.

Now let me make this clear again. For the technologies to help the Federation, they would need working QS drives of the fastest known speed AND they would have to be deployed fleet wide AND they would have to work properly without the ships tearing themselves apart. Second, Trilithium torpedoes would also have to be fleet wide.

Yes, its unrealistic. But in many ways that is the entire premise of this thread. What available technology is there for the Federation that could theoretically be used to counter the Empire. My idea technically fits the bill.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-02-23 03:56pm

I belive trilithium is a by product of warp cores. I remember because in the episode with the baryon sweep weren't the terrorists trying to steal the stuff because it's also a very powerful explosive?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-23 04:04pm

Alyeska wrote:Mike, I already stated the preconditions for the technology. I stated it was issued fleet wide and that it worked. I stated that it uses the fastest known Slipstream, the type that got Voyager home in less then an hour.

Actually, this never happened, and their own projections were for three months, not one hour.

Yes, its unrealistic. But in many ways that is the entire premise of this thread. What available technology is there for the Federation that could theoretically be used to counter the Empire. My idea technically fits the bill.

No, because it goes beyond available technology by incorporating slipstream and then arbitrarily making their ships many times stronger so they can handle the strain. That's the point I'm making. Why don't you just say "hey, the Feds can just make all their ships 10,000 times more powerful"?

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-23 11:50pm

As far as the slipstream drive goes....it comes "as advertised" i.e. it doesnt bloody work right

and "without warranty" i.e. it may destroy your fleet on route from A to B.....

Saying you want a working version without all the flaws that are inherent to the system shown isnt right....

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-24 01:28am

Slipstream 'worked' on Voyager: It got them up to incredible speeds. Throwing in far stronger hulls to absorb the rigors of this velocity is not part of the deal.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-24 01:45am

Also it doesnt take into account the NUMERICAL supperiority the Empire has remeber once a few system,s go boom they will be looking for unknown fast moving ships coming in System Defense craft can kill Federation ships . Now you have a thourougly pissed off enemy to deal with who with ruthlessly exterminate the Federation and if the other ST powers bitch well...they will get there share of the smackdown.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2003-02-24 09:48am

Just a thought. The Federation could also use the interdimensional transporter of the Rutian rebels ("The High Ground", Season 3, Episode 12 of ST TNG). The rebels were able to board the Enterprise despite being heavily shielded. Since they were transported "interdimensioally" no amount of shielding can stop them.

Fed ships can tranport transphasic/quantum torpedoes inside Star Destroyers and blow them up from within. Just like what Voyager did once to a Borg vessel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 09:52am

Gorglun wrote:Just a thought. The Federation could also use the interdimensional transporter of the Rutian rebels ("The High Ground", Season 3, Episode 12 of ST TNG). The rebels were able to board the Enterprise despite being heavily shielded. Since they were transported "interdimensioally" no amount of shielding can stop them.

It's a subspace transporter. Subspace signals can't penetrate heavy metals.

Fed ships can tranport transphasic/quantum torpedoes inside Star Destroyers and blow them up from within. Just like what Voyager did once to a Borg vessel.

Even if this works (which it shouldn't given the aforementioned fact), can they do this faster than said Star Destroyer can fire one shot from an MTL? Because that's how much time they have.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-24 10:01am

Isn't all this really nothing more than a prolonged admission that, with its nominal resources to pit against the Empire, the Federation would be crushed like a bug?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-02-24 10:02am

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Mike, I already stated the preconditions for the technology. I stated it was issued fleet wide and that it worked. I stated that it uses the fastest known Slipstream, the type that got Voyager home in less then an hour.
Actually, this never happened, and their own projections were for three months, not one hour.

Are you suggesting that they spent an entire Month on the Bridge when we watched the scene go to hell? We see them start up the process and then after a few minutes things go to hell quickly and Voyager drops out and then crashes into a planet. There was absolutely no indication of it having taken a month. Sure, it was screwed up, but my entire point was they somehow manage to get a drive that fast working on their ships. With something that fast they could probably cross the Galaxy in under a day.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 10:05am

Alyeska wrote:Are you suggesting that they spent an entire Month on the Bridge when we watched the scene go to hell? We see them start up the process and then after a few minutes things go to hell quickly and Voyager drops out and then crashes into a planet. There was absolutely no indication of it having taken a month. Sure, it was screwed up, but my entire point was they somehow manage to get a drive that fast working on their ships. With something that fast they could probably cross the Galaxy in under a day.

Ah, you're thinking of a different episode than I am, then. I'm talking about the trip projections from Dauntless. I presume you're talking about one of those time-travel episodes and an even more dangerous version of slipstream? Let 'em use it; they can annihilate most of their fleet without Imperial intervention that way

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-02-24 11:47am

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Are you suggesting that they spent an entire Month on the Bridge when we watched the scene go to hell? We see them start up the process and then after a few minutes things go to hell quickly and Voyager drops out and then crashes into a planet. There was absolutely no indication of it having taken a month. Sure, it was screwed up, but my entire point was they somehow manage to get a drive that fast working on their ships. With something that fast they could probably cross the Galaxy in under a day.
Ah, you're thinking of a different episode than I am, then. I'm talking about the trip projections from Dauntless. I presume you're talking about one of those time-travel episodes and an even more dangerous version of slipstream? Let 'em use it; they can annihilate most of their fleet without Imperial intervention that way

Actually in "Timeless", the drive worked fine for about 30 seconds or so, and considering that it goes like a billion time lightspeed, all they have to do is make 30-second, thousand light-year hops. Or more research into how to make a properly stable quantum slipstream could be done. It could take the Federation's top physicists decades... or Wesley Crusher 15 minutes.

There's scores of examples of super-warp drive phenomena that Starfleet technology can be modified to make. There was the spatial rift generated by super Barclay, the rift opened by Q Jr. in the Delta Flyer, the gateway to fluidic space made by Seven... With better dilithium a shuttle hit infinite speed. Warp drives have the power to cross the galaxy instantaneously, but Starfleet isn't smart enough yet to use them properly. It's one of the most ridiculous brain bugs in Trek, but the capability in the technology exists, as shown by Barclay.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 12:51pm

Eframepilot wrote:Actually in "Timeless", the drive worked fine for about 30 seconds or so, and considering that it goes like a billion time lightspeed, all they have to do is make 30-second, thousand light-year hops.

If that would work, then why didn't they do this to get home? I reiterate: the danger level is so high that they destroyed their ship in that alternate timeline.

Or more research into how to make a properly stable quantum slipstream could be done. It could take the Federation's top physicists decades... or Wesley Crusher 15 minutes.

Wesley Crusher must die and all mention of him is punished by severe canings. You know that.

There's scores of examples of super-warp drive phenomena that Starfleet technology can be modified to make. There was the spatial rift generated by super Barclay, the rift opened by Q Jr. in the Delta Flyer, the gateway to fluidic space made by Seven...

None of which are reproducible. The Q aren't going to help the Federation (they never have before), jumping to fluidic space does not help you cross tens of thousands of light years in realspace, and the spatial rift had to be controlled by super Barclay, otherwise there's no telling what would have happened to the ship.

With better dilithium a shuttle hit infinite speed.

Or so they claimed, even though division by zero doesn't make any sense and when their prolonged trip ended, they were only a few light years away

Warp drives have the power to cross the galaxy instantaneously, but Starfleet isn't smart enough yet to use them properly. It's one of the most ridiculous brain bugs in Trek, but the capability in the technology exists, as shown by Barclay.

You're forgetting the minor issue that these technologies generally require some outside influence or major leap forward in general technology or they will destroy the ship. Transwarp, slipstream, it's always the same story. I refer you to the "5000hp motor in a VW bug" analogy I used before; they lack the support technologies to implement them safely.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-02-24 01:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Eframepilot wrote:Actually in "Timeless", the drive worked fine for about 30 seconds or so, and considering that it goes like a billion time lightspeed, all they have to do is make 30-second, thousand light-year hops.
If that would work, then why didn't they do this to get home? I reiterate: the danger level is so high that they destroyed their ship in that alternate timeline.

You mean you expect the Voyager crew to display common sense, in a matter involving getting home? Can we conclude that time bombs are beyond the Federation's technology as well?

None of which are reproducible. The Q aren't going to help the Federation (they never have before), jumping to fluidic space does not help you cross tens of thousands of light years in realspace, and the spatial rift had to be controlled by super Barclay, otherwise there's no telling what would have happened to the ship.

The ship itself contains all of the technology to make the spatial rift Barclay used. They don't need any fundamental advances in hardware, just in software (and wetware).

You're forgetting the minor issue that these technologies generally require some outside influence or major leap forward in general technology or they will destroy the ship. Transwarp, slipstream, it's always the same story. I refer you to the "5000hp motor in a VW bug" analogy I used before; they lack the support technologies to implement them safely.

The "Timeless" slipstream was very dangerous, but only as it could destabilize and collapse, hurling the ship out of control. It still remained stable for 30 seconds and there is a safe way known to exit it. Look at the big picture. A small, lost ship crewed by 150 misfits found an alien drive system capable of crossing 50,000 light-years in 3 months, but was not compatible with their own hull strength. In a matter of months, with no working model to study, they reverse-engineered it and built a better version that not only got around the hull-strain problem but was a THOUSAND times as fast (hours instead of months). The only(:shock:) problem was that instabilities in the slipstream prevented it from being used for more than 30 seconds or so. Note the Delta Flyer had no problems in either timeline. The end result was that Voyager got 20,000 light-years closer to home in a matter of minutes. The feat of engineering was beyond incredible, into the range of the totally implausible! If the crew of Voyager could accomplish so much, imagine what the total resources of the Federation could manage. If the crew could properly (tech) the (tech) (tech), the (tech) would work fine. They only need a theoretical jump, not a practical one.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-24 01:29pm

Eframepilot wrote:You mean you expect the Voyager crew to display common sense, in a matter involving getting home? Can we conclude that time bombs are beyond the Federation's technology as well?

Don't be an idiot. If you don't think of an obvious solution with a few minutes or hours to come up with it, that's stupidity. If you don't think of an obvious solution with a few MONTHS or YEARS to come up with it, that's brain-death, or it just can't be done for reasons not made clear to you.

If the crew of Voyager could accomplish so much, imagine what the total resources of the Federation could manage. If the crew could properly (tech) the (tech) (tech), the (tech) would work fine. They only need a theoretical jump, not a practical one.

*points and laughs at silly layperson*

Actually, a practical jump comes AFTER the theoretical jump and is often much more difficult. They had theoretical transwarp back in Kirk's era, remember? And look at real-life! Do you honestly think that once the theory is worked out, a practical implementation is just a snap of the fingers? Are you honestly that dense?

PS. the Federation's combined resources don't count for shit in this case; we're talking about alien technology which they don't even understand and have trouble using. And as for your silly notion that super-Barclay's feat can be duplicated by simply "improving wetware", how do you figure on doing that? Wave a magic wand and make more super-Barclays?

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