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It depends on what force one is talking about; British Brigadiers equal American Brigadier Generals within NATO as OF-6s. The existence of several separate brigadier ranks in various armies is a source of confusion.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Brigadiers are senior colonels. Brigadier Generals are junior general officers. Not the same thing. And Brigadier Generals are NOT called Brigadiers (that would imply they're not general officers).
Yeah, I think you should expand that it is quasi-scientific. Remember technology can indicate some level of Force-sensitivity; Maul's black eye probe droids had sensors that could hone in on the Force.Darth Raptor wrote:The Jedi Order
The Jedi Order is an ancient and pan-galactic society devoted to the light side of the Force, its philosophical study and practical applications. While they are scarcely understood, phenomena traditionally ascribed to the Force are repeatable and independently verifiable.
I would say the Jedi are semi-scientific. They very much do follow scientific pursuits of the Force and supplement them with non-scientific methods and traditions.Darth Raptor wrote:Nevertheless, the Order adheres to a mystical philosophy and a dogmatic code of morality and conduct. For this reason, scholars and historians have traditionally classified the Jedi Order as a Force cult; one of the so-called "true religions", or those centered on an unscientific study of the very real phenomena known as the Force.
Good. I'd expand on the nature of their contractual agreement. Basically the Republic grants them universal jurisdiction and supports their activities under law in exchange for submission to Republic law and supervision. Ironically, in many ways the Jedi Order's relationship to the state mimics that of COMPNOR. It is the Fourth Estate, the extra pillar of government and society. Its a Quasi-AUtonomous Non-Governmental Organization (QUANGO). It is free to self-govern and regulate and manage its own affairs under broad guidelines (basically basic laws governing all organizations, preventing them from abusing authority and individuals, nothing special) and without interference, but is subject to regulation and supervision where its activities overlap on the sovereignty of the Republic. It is accountable where it is acting on the behalf of the Republic Authority or State of the Union or against their citizens.Darth Raptor wrote:The legendary virtue and heroism of its members combined with its undeniable history of applying the Force both safely and effectively (a history not shared by competing philosophies) have helped to make the Jedi Order the galaxy's dominant Force cult. Their interpretation of the Force is generally accepted as "correct" by the galaxy at large. Due to its role in the foundation of the Galactic Republic and its function in the defense and maintenance thereof, the Jedi Order enjoys considerable power and influence within the Republic Authority, while remaining technically independent of said government. The Jedi have a standing mandate to explore the galaxy, defend the Republic from external threats, expand (through peaceful means) its sphere of influence, mediate domestic and international disputes, recruit from among the citizenry, regulate the study, knowledge and practice of Force-related abilities and to enforce law and order within Republic territory; a mandate that has not been altered since the Republic was established over twenty-four thousand years ago.
I like. I don't like how the EU just goes "poof" and everything we consider familiar just appears at exactly 25ky before present.Darth Raptor wrote:The modern and mature form of the Jedi Order predates the Galactic Republic by at least two thousand years and archaeological evidence points to an Order that is more ancient still.
Great stuff.Darth Raptor wrote:The First Great Schism was itself part and symptomatic of the Unification Wars. The pre-Republic Jedi were defined by their violent opposition to dark side witches and heretical sects of their own cult. Thus, the Jedi quickly became known as chivalrous heroes; the saviors and protectors of peace-loving peoples throughout the galaxy. It was as much by the cruelty and barbarism of their enemies as it was by their own merits that they acquired this reputation. The Jedi were in a perfect position to unite the Great Powers of the Core and their allies against the Anti-Unification Alliance and its barbarian pawns. They did so, and found that while numerous, their enemies were as disorganized as they were dissolute. What began as an alliance of necessity for the survival of civilization would eventually become the Galactic Republic. With the Jedi to stand vigil as the eternal guardians of peace and justice, the future of civilization was assured.
Darth Raptor wrote:By law, membership in the Jedi Order is voluntary. Individuals suspected to possess potential are identified at birth by routine medical tests. In eukaryotic species, this is done by performing a count of midi-chlorians per cell. An individual's midi-chlorian count is positively-correlated with latent Force abilities, but a battery of further tests are required for confirmation. These tests are performed by the recruiting Knight or officer of the Inquisition. If the presence of genuine ability is confirmed, the individual is, with the written consent of their legal guardians, inducted into the Jedi Order at the age of seven.
My system was that initiates serve in boarding-school like academies learning basic Jedi training and traditional and specialized education. These centers are extremely rigorous. Apprentices are taken by Knights in various specializations (Kinghts involved in potentially violent missions or work cannot accept an apprentice younger than 16 or 17). At the academy level, after early education, they're granted an academy teacher as a "mentor" - a kind of proto-Master.Darth Raptor wrote:Training takes place in one of two ways; the first is for Knights of Master level to take on the initiate as their personal apprentice. The second is for the initiate to attend a Jedi academy or praxeum.
Good stuff.Darth Raptor wrote:Apprentice Jedi and academy students are called Padawans and, in addition to their studies, serve their masters and/or the Order itself as pages until they reach the legal age of majority for their species. Padawans old enough for military service act as squires in the direct support of Knights in the field, or begin to assume the responsibilities of their occupational specialty. Republic law mandates that they receive a full primary and secondary education in addition to their martial and occupational training. Most also complete a baccalaureate-level tertiary education or better.
Good stuff. I imagine they all must qualify in basic combat skills, with firearms, direct use of the Force, hand-to-hand, and the lightsaber (the Force and the lightsaber emphasized, the latter covered in passing or as electives).Darth Raptor wrote:Occupational placement is partly determined by the needs of the Order and partly by the talents and temperaments of the individual Padawan. Squires under the charge of a Knight can only become a Knight, while academy-trained Padawans have a wider range of specializations available to them. Jedi that pursue a less generalized career can begin their specialized training as early as fourteen and as late as eighteen. All Jedi carry lightsabers and have some degree of martial skill, even if they never see combat.
Ceremonial armor, correctly portrayed, sounds cool, its evocative of real knights and of course presages Vader as the black knight. I'd have no more hermit robes. More like the concepts. More samurai and martial in character. Clear delineation of forms yet distinct and appropriate. I'm thinking Catholic Church hierarchy in a lot of ways.Darth Raptor wrote:The martial arm of the Jedi Order, the Swift Sword and Invincible Shield of the Galactic Republic, the Jedi Knights are the finest warriors in the galaxy. While masters of swordsmanship and known for their gleaming, plastoid body armor, Jedi Knights are savants at battle in any medium.
I don't think all Jedi commanders should be battle mediators, maybe some, but not all.Darth Raptor wrote:Infantry, armor, aviation, marksmanship, reconnaissance, infiltration and special forces; Jedi Knights can do it all and do it better than even the most gifted Force-blind individual. Knights-errant act on their own or with/in support of other Knights-errant. Others are dispatched on missions by the Temple, either alone or in support of Republic military operations.
Still others serve in the Armed Forces of the Republic on active duty; with most of these being special forces or naval aviators. As one would expect, many Knights move on to occupy command roles. These are the Jedi Generals and their powers of telepathy and precognition have allowed them to lead the armies and fleets of the Republic to victory time and again. Jedi Generals are specialists in battle meditation, a skill that allows them to coordinate and inspire their troops to an extent that would otherwise be impossible.
Good work rationalizing their healers and coming up with a good way we can also rationalize Sith alchemy.Darth Raptor wrote:Apothecaries
Apothecaries are masters of alchemy (Force-assisted, trans-elemental chemistry) and psychometabolism, making them physicians and pharmacologists without peer. While a Jedi Apothecary cannot do anything that modern medicine cannot, they can do so anywhere and at any time. This makes them invaluable on the battlefield or at the scene of an epidemic or natural disaster; especially in circumstances of critical time or scarce resources. Apothecaries are also employed in planetary terraforming and reclamation efforts. In addition to their preternatural abilities, Jedi apothecaries are almost always fully-trained biologists or conventional physicians.
Good work. I think I have more in common with your lightly monastic/religious Order than Hoth's explicitly feudal one. I'll address his post next.Darth Raptor wrote:The Temple
The Temple is the guiding light of the Order and Temples of various sizes and dispositions can be found on most worlds in the Republic. The primary role of the Temple is to coordinate and support Knights in the field and to liaise with the Republic Authority and local governments. Understandably, very few Temples can maintain a permanent cadre of Jedi. Instead, these facilities are staffed by lay servants, Force-blind acolytes who are the lifeblood of the Order's organizational bureaucracy and support infrastructure. The size of a Jedi Temple depends on the world's relative importance and can range from humble shrines sequestered in the alcoves of government buildings to the ecumenical Temple on Coruscant, a virtual city unto itself.
Could I suggest that all ordained Jedi are known as Knights, and Master is simply an honorific of Knight (similar Priests and Cardinals). The Knights-in-fact could be known as the Knights Martial or Field Knights.Darth Raptor wrote:Those large enough to warrant a permanent Jedi detachment often double as academies, archives or headquarters for the Council and Inquisition. Knights assigned to a Temple specifically to ensure its security are called Templars. Specialist members of the permanent compliment are styled and self-styled by a range of names varying by local tradition, specific function and personal preference. These Jedi serve a much more intellectual role, and can be known as scholars, scientists, philosophers, magi, priests, monks and numerous other academic and mystical titles. The same is true for the individual Temples and their leaders.
Great.Darth Raptor wrote:In addition to its intra-Order support functions, the Temple provides valuable social services to their local communities. On less developed worlds, the Temple can take on an almost missionary disposition, providing food, clothing, medicine and education to worlds outside the Republic or on the fringe of its effective influence.
Suggestions: more on Jedi seconded to the direct service of the Republic and other states. More on "retired" Jedi, or those released from duties subject to hierarchical control, free to pursue civilian or political careers (in-essence, "secondment" is a temporary leave from active duty with the expectation of resumption of duties and role at will, and "retirement" or "inactive" is basically permanent). Also, that the Judicials directly have a troop of Jedi under their sole control, the Knights of the Republic, which serve as their semi-external check and enforcement/prosecution arm. Their job is to ensure the Order is not abusing its mandate or relationship with the Republic.Darth Raptor wrote:The Inquisition
Almost all Jedi and their acolytes are seen as saints; intrinsically noble and honorable servants of light, the guardians of peace and justice. While those on the wrong side of the Order's attentions would disagree, to the galaxy at large, the Jedi are almost universally revered. Conversely, no one likes the Inquistion, not even most Jedi. Some respect it, others fear it, still more hate it, but fondness for the organization is not something that is found outside its walls. Even after twenty-four thousand years of tireless service, the Inquisition is merely tolerated by the Republic. Tolerated and accepted as necessary to contain the very real dangers of the dark side of the Force.
The Inquisition serves to regulate the knowledge, teaching and practice of the Force. By Republic law, all religions are protected and dark side cults are no exception. Alternative beliefs in the Force are tolerated by both the Jedi and the Republic Authority. Alternative practices are not. Jedi Inquisitors and their subordinate agents hunt down and prosecute the myriad groups of practicing witches, heretics, schismatics and apostates. The Inquisition is also responsible for the discovery and surveillance of potential Jedi recruits. While the Order prefers to have Knights or less odious specialists do the actual recruiting, it is almost always the Inquisition who is first to learn of a potential initiate. Those whose person or guardians refuse to join the Order are thoroughly yet discreetly monitored by the Inquisition for the rest of their lives.
The Inquisition is also the internal police and judiciary of the Order, which prefers to handle its problems internally. Particularly infamous and egregious offenders are usually remanded to Republic custody.
The British do not consider OF-6s to be general or flag officers. The U.S. does (note the etymology and history of "commodore", and the telltale sign that they fly a broad pennant, not a flag).Darth Hoth wrote:It depends on what force one is talking about; British Brigadiers equal American Brigadier Generals within NATO as OF-6s. The existence of several separate brigadier ranks in various armies is a source of confusion.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Brigadiers are senior colonels. Brigadier Generals are junior general officers. Not the same thing. And Brigadier Generals are NOT called Brigadiers (that would imply they're not general officers).
I'd add that very long-lived Grand Masters typically retired from their seat and active duty as well, becoming "great sages" with very informal and passive influence from outside the formal hierarchy. Like Yoda.Darth Hoth wrote:Some quickly written fluff on the Jedi Order, specifically its leadership:
The Grand Master
The Grand Master of the Order of the Knights of Jedi was the supreme leader of the Order and the ruler of its estates. Elected by the acclaim of the High Council for an indefinite period, he typically served for life – the honour of an appointment was often viewed as too great to relinquish, although there were rare exceptions, such as when Grand Master Hermann, Lord Hoth resigned his position in favour of the Prince Valenthyne of the House of Farfalla upon leading the doomed “Charge of the Ten Thousand” upon the heretic Lord Kaan’s lines at Ruusan. A Grand Master frequently appointed his successor; although such a statement was formally only a recommendation to the High Council, strong custom required this body to honour such requests – not one exception has been recorded to this rule.
Hmmm, I don't know about Yoda's first name being "Ferdinand", but its not so bad. Are you going with the idea that Lord is a courtesy title attached to the Grand Master's seat? I like that he's the ultimate authority in issues of administration of territories and the order in general, and the senior representative of the order to the State. I'd include more about the ambiguous status and relationship, in effect is it a Fourth Estate, a QUANGO like COMPNOR (although with a closed pool of potential membership, apolitical, religious, limited, cloistered, aristocratic, and elitist as opposed to universal membership pretensions, politically activist, secular, totalitarian, widespread, autocratic, and populist).Darth Hoth wrote:In his duties, the Grand Master represented the Order before the Supreme Chancellor and President of the Galactic Republic and was required to report to him, as part of the intricately regulated relationship between the State and the Order Militant; while many Grand Masters resented this mostly ceremonial function and in practice dealt with the Republic Authority through the Diplomatic Service and their own appointed Ambassadors, as better befitted a de facto independent polity of the Order’s importance, several formed cordial relationships with the Chancellors of their time, reporting to them in person as tradition had originally had it and becoming their close advisors. One notable such relationship was that of Grand Master Ferdinand, Lord Yoda and Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, in the twilight days of the Republic.
I disagree with fiefs. I don't think think the feudal model is appropriate. As a percentage of galactic territory and property, it should be infintesimal. There's a better model, especially since knights aren't passing their fiefs to agnates: they're not fiefs, they're bishophrics. Jedi property and jurisdiction is tied to a particular seat. Major facilities located on worlds are known as Jedi enclaves, where they're semi-sovereign (think UN in NYC). Hosting one was a great honor in the Republic, and an enclave corresponded to a traditional Chapter or diocese, and the Master of the Chapter had jurisdiction over its permanently attached knights and staff and assets and property.Darth Hoth wrote:In addition to such functions, the Grand Master was the undisputed ruler of the Order, with its myriad Knights and their fiefs and protectorates.
Again, I don't think they should personally raise conventional armed forces (apart from perhaps a personal guard unit). I think that as necessary, the Jedi ask for pledges of power from the member states or Republic for its missions. There are also historical and extant military orders who've pledged their fealty to various Chapter seats, and the Grand Master has ultimate authority over these assets (though his use of them must be consistent with Republic law). Basically, they don't declare war, they call for crusades.Darth Hoth wrote:He was the Supreme Commander of the Order’s formidable military forces,
You can have the Grand Master be a Pope, or you can have him be a patriarch. You can't simultaneously have a decentralized system and absolutism. Besides, this rubs me as too feudal and Hitlerian. I expect all Jedi swear on the Code.Darth Hoth wrote:and all its soldiers where required to take an oath of allegiance to him in person, above and beyond their pledges of fealty to individual Knights or Masters, as were all true members of the Order upon knighting.
I don't think the name of the Force Church is appropriate. Though the idea is good. Really what are they doing to do? Have Jedi priests offering masses? I think a Jedi-centric Force religion should be self-governed by its believers, and it chooses to bound itself to the Order (it is self-operated, but the Grand Master appoints Masters to oversee and liaise with it).Darth Hoth wrote:Only he, together with the High Council, had ultimate jurisdiction over the full Knights and Masters of the Order, except in such cases when the Senate of the Republic chose to exercise its legal prerogative over them – something that happened rarely, but was not unheard of; a famous example would be the trial of Ulic Qel-Droma, the Prince of Koros. Furthermore, he was in ultimate control of the much larger, non-militant segments of the Order’s organisation and bureaucracy, such as the Mission, and through its Synod, the Church of the Living Force Triumphant, which tended to those of the galaxy’s adherents to the religion of Jedi who were not themselves Force-sensitive.
I strongly disagree with the Jedi as a fully-fledged theocratic empire. I also think the Jedi shouldn't be full of shit about their democratic credentials. Akkara might be the "Jedi world"; where the Grand Master is technically sovereign, but by tradition all citizens of the world (the Jedi refrain from direct participation in politics, and therefore rarely vote on their own world - instead voting as simple citizens in their own home states) elect their own government, and a prime minister rules de facto, under a Grand Master as an absentee king (like the British commonwealth realms), represented by a Master dispatched for the purpose. Akkara is a Great Power due to his significant economy and association with the Order, but has its own agenda and power, though its Senator is basically always a partisan of the Order in the Senate.Darth Hoth wrote:Finally, the Grand Master ruled the Estates of the Order, or the states under its direct control (as opposed to those held by its vassals), most famously its throneworld, the library-fortress of Akkara in the Coruscant Sector.
I don't think he should have such a heavy hand. I think he should refrain from issuing dictates to the civilian population, religiously inclined or otherwise.Darth Hoth wrote:To most of the quadrillions of adherents to the Living Force faith, he was a quasi-religious figure, and they tended to obey his suggestions when they were voiced.
I significantly agree with soft influence and alliance due to Jedi lineages in Old Families. However, I think they should rule their worlds consistent with being a politician, not a tool of the Order. I think they're only bound rules of fealty while not "seconded" or "inactive"; and I don't think they can be elected or serve in secular office while active due to obvious conflicts of interest. I don't think the Jedi should deliberately and constantly undermine the legal system.Darth Hoth wrote:In addition, the dual status of many prominent knightly families as kings and nobles in their own right, many ruling prosperous Core and Colonies worlds, ensured that the Order never stood without political allies. (In fact, since these princes and lords of Jedi were as bound by vows of fealty as their non-landed Knight-Brethren, it is arguable that many of these polities were, in fact, vassals of the Order rather than strictly independent powers.)
I'd go with simply "one of the most influential."Darth Hoth wrote:It is thus no wonder that political science traditionally held the Grand Master to be the second most powerful single individual in the galaxy.
This is relatively straightforward. I like the idea of Great Officers of State administering the various needs and ideas of the Order. I don't know about "Lord Captain General" - maybe a more obscure reference instead of the direct usage here. Maybe the Byzantine Grand Domestic?Darth Hoth wrote:However, few Grand Masters chose to exercise their powers in full – understandably so, as their myriad duties would then have either swamped them or slowed down the workings of the Order. A few very energetic leaders, such as the aforementioned Lord Hoth, have the proven exceptions, but overall much of the Grand Master’s power was delegated to his immediate inferiors. For example, day to day rule of the throneworld was accorded the Marshall of Akkara, widely considered the Order’s second most powerful man, and the Synod rarely required his direct participation. The Lord Captain General usually tended to the Order’s forces, while the Lord Chaplain monitored its more monastic subdivisions. Notably, the Inquisition led a quasi-autonomous existence under its own leadership, headed by the Grand Inquisitor; relations between this organisation, much different in character from the pomp and circumstance of the Order proper, and the central authority was sometimes strained, although there are examples of amiable relationships between Grand Inquisitors and Grand Masters, such as that of Lord Yoda and Mace, Lord Windu in the last days of the Order.
Good.Darth Hoth wrote: The High Council
The Tribunal of the Grand Conclave of the Order of the Knights of Jedi, often colloquially referred to simply as the High Council, was the presidium of the rarely assembled Grand Conclave, a mostly ceremonial body that comprised, among others, all the Chapter Masters of the Order and was rendered impractical already in the early days of its development due to its rapid expansion. It ruled the affairs of the Order and served as an advisory board – as well as a mechanism of check and balance – to the Grand Master of the Order.
I think that the inheritance angle should be there, but not so obvious. More like the relationship between Great Families and their States. They're not truly investured royals or nobles, but they're very influential and historically prestigious.Darth Hoth wrote:The High Council had twelve members, in addition to the Grand Master, who chaired it. Four members qualified by their office: the Marshall of Akkara; the Lord Captain General of the Soldiers of Jedi; the Lord Chaplain of the Cloistered Orders of Jedi; and the Grand Inquisitor of the Inquisition of the Knights of Jedi. These were its most powerful and influential seats, second only to the Grand Master himself, and their vote carried weight disproportionate to their numbers; in particular, the Grand Inquisitor, though often not well liked, wielded great influence. The other members were great Masters appointed by their peers, always men of past heroic deeds and ancient knightly lines, rarely ones not past their first century in age.
Are you using the Electors of the Holy Roman Empire as an analog? The College of Cardinals?Darth Hoth wrote:The High Council served as the supreme authority of the Order, monitoring and aiding the Grand Master in the exercising of his rights and duties, both in the governance of the Order and its estates. It controlled the Order’s treasury and operational budget, as well as its foreign and domestic policy, and exercised rights of oversight of the Order’s own armed forces. Most prominently, the High Council appointed the Grand Master (though often at the recommendation of his predecessor) and was the only legal authority with the right to depose him; however, this required unanimous acclaim, and this particular privilege was never utilised by an independently functioning High Council.
Darth Hoth wrote:The High Council also served as the supreme judicial authority of the Order, convening as a court to sentence egregious criminals within the Order; in such cases, the Grand Inquisitor would serve as prosecutor, with the Grand Master and the other senior members judging and the lesser appointment filling the function of a jury.
I think that distinction should be up to the Republic, not the Jedi. Its meaningless if the Jedi get to choose if their under Republic jurisdiction.Darth Hoth wrote:On rare occasions, such criminals were instead deemed to fall under the jurisdiction of the Republic Authority proper; this caused resentment among more independently minded Knights.
Good stuff.Darth Hoth wrote:Generally, however, the High Council did little to interfere in the locally run Chapters of the Knights Jedi, which were broadly self-governing within a federative structure not entirely unlike that of the Galactic Republic itself. To an extent, this was due to the voluntary coordination efforts of the Chapter Councils themselves – lesser entities modelled on the High Council, frequently controlling Jedi activities in areas roughly equivalent to (though rarely entirely contiguous with) Republic Sectors – but the High Council also allowed them a great degree of independence and rarely interceded over minor deviancies; they were, however, theoretically mere administrative subdivisions, not governments in and of themselves, and the High Council did reserve for itself the right of intervention in cases of outright disloyalty and heresy, as it did against Chapter Master Assad, Lord Kaan and what would eventually become the Brotherhood of Darkness. Notably, the Inquisition’s parallel structure also monitored the local Chapters.
I think this canon should be more or less fully ceremonial, with a much more legally robust day-to-day constitution (I'm sure they have good lawyers).Darth Hoth wrote:In addition to its governmental and judicial functions, the High Council served a religious role within the Order and its subservient Church by claiming pre-eminency of interpretation of religious texts and commandments, most prominently the Code of Jedi itself, a massive collection of regulations and codes of chivalric conduct, many archaic and other seemingly arbitrary or contradictory (such as the ruling from 28,044 BrS that Knights of Jedi should wear only homespun robes, or the more recent commandment from 24,582 BrS that Knights should not eat fish more than once a week; both were more or less uniformly ignored).
Good stuff.Darth Hoth wrote:It could not change these commandments – this required the formal convention of the Grand Conclave – but the material was ambiguous enough to allow for differing interpretations, depending on climate. Doctrinal conflicts were rare, but nevertheless occurred; for example, the expulsion without persecution of the schismatic Potentium sect caused much resentment within the Order, both among its detractors and its supporters.
More clarity is needed on the various power/decentralization of jurisdiction amongst the various levels of the Order.Darth Hoth wrote:The High Council and the Grand Master were in theory supposed to complement and aid each other, and in practice, this was often their relationship. As such, the division of power between them remained fairly unimportant for the greater part of their history. There were, however, times when a Grand Master and his High Council found themselves working at cross purposes, such as during Lord Hoth’s crusade against the Brotherhood of Darkness. The High Council disagreed with Hoth’s aggressive strategy, refusing to grant him the forces he required; Hoth in turn then drew upon the Knights-Vassal and their forces, whose allegiance was ultimately to him and over whom the Council had no direct authority.
Good stuff.Darth Hoth wrote:By far the greatest schism was instigated by Grand Master Ajantis, Lord Revan, millennia earlier, when he and his supporters collectively resigned from the Order after a similar dispute, effectively splitting it in twain. In the time since, additional checks on the Grand Master’s power have been instituted.
The U.S. employs the awkward "rear admiral (lower half)" in lieu of commodore to emphasize that it, while treated as equivalent to commodore with an equivalent Alliance code of OF-6, are full admirals, not senior captains (which commodores are; the Imperial Navy already has two levels of formal commodores, Line Captain and Commodore).Darth Hoth wrote:Is that so? Well, one learns something new every day. Point conceded.
Essentially, yes. It serves as a list of officers who have been deemed suitable for further promotion into higher flag rank, whereas a nonlist Commodore is as high as he is likely to go without promotion to the List. Once you're on the List, you are an admiral-to-be.Darth Hoth wrote:So, it denotes a senior rank of Commodore, and refers to the promotion list - ListComs are effectively admirals-to-be?
Alright. Upon reading through the Admiral General wiki article, I find it may serve a fine purpose as the CNO's rank. Admiral General of the Fleet, perhaps.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Brigadiers are senior colonels. Brigadier Generals are junior general officers. Not the same thing. And Brigadier Generals are NOT called Brigadiers (that would imply they're not general officers). And Generaladmiral or Admiral General does not mean "Admiral-General". It means "Admiral, Generally" in the same sense of the meaning of "Director General" or "Attorney General." "General" itself is a contraction of "Captain General"; "Major General" a contraction of "Sergeant Major General", etc.
All right; that should not be a problem.Illuminatus Primus wrote:I'd add that very long-lived Grand Masters typically retired from their seat and active duty as well, becoming "great sages" with very informal and passive influence from outside the formal hierarchy. Like Yoda.
Ferdinand was merely a playful suggestion. And I imagine Lord would be an honorary title; I would not think Yoda nobility by birth. As for the Order’s legal status, I kept that deliberately vague, so as not to conflict with anything else when I wrote it up (part of this piece was based on old pre-EUFic notes/drafts).Hmmm, I don't know about Yoda's first name being "Ferdinand", but its not so bad. Are you going with the idea that Lord is a courtesy title attached to the Grand Master's seat? I like that he's the ultimate authority in issues of administration of territories and the order in general, and the senior representative of the order to the State. I'd include more about the ambiguous status and relationship, in effect is it a Fourth Estate, a QUANGO like COMPNOR (although with a closed pool of potential membership, apolitical, religious, limited, cloistered, aristocratic, and elitist as opposed to universal membership pretensions, politically activist, secular, totalitarian, widespread, autocratic, and populist).
I may have been a bit unclear there; in the model I imagined, the Order would be a quasi-independent state in its own right, with it owning property and having political power over a number of worlds (the Estates). In addition, there would be the fiefs of individual Knights (vassal-states of varying degrees of independence, typically inherited patrilineally) and the protectorates – polities under temporary Jedi administration in a fashion not too dissimilar to your posited mandate system for Republic powers. Their rule over these areas would be interimistic, e.g. during or after conflicts against heretics. The vassal-states would not be part of the Order proper, but rather areas held indirectly (through the persons of certain of its members).I disagree with fiefs. I don't think think the feudal model is appropriate. As a percentage of galactic territory and property, it should be infintesimal. There's a better model, especially since knights aren't passing their fiefs to agnates: they're not fiefs, they're bishophrics. Jedi property and jurisdiction is tied to a particular seat. Major facilities located on worlds are known as Jedi enclaves, where they're semi-sovereign (think UN in NYC). Hosting one was a great honor in the Republic, and an enclave corresponded to a traditional Chapter or diocese, and the Master of the Chapter had jurisdiction over its permanently attached knights and staff and assets and property.
The Jedi ruling worlds as part of their "civil" life (such as Prince Farfalla in Jedi vs Sith) would have forces of their own, though those would not strictly be under Order jurisdiction. As for the Order itself, I would imagine it supports a small fleet and garrisons to protect its own assets – in my proposed revised model nothing grand, akin to the Knights Templar in their later stages and adapted for the setting. The Inquisition might also need smaller detachments of crack troops for their work, as they would need to act swiftly and preferably secretly in most cases. I can agree that these forces should be smallish and inadequate for launching offensive campaigns, but not utterly pathetic like, say, the Swiss Guard; if attacked, they should be able to at least attempt to hold their own till aid can be called for.Again, I don't think they should personally raise conventional armed forces (apart from perhaps a personal guard unit). I think that as necessary, the Jedi ask for pledges of power from the member states or Republic for its missions. There are also historical and extant military orders who've pledged their fealty to various Chapter seats, and the Grand Master has ultimate authority over these assets (though his use of them must be consistent with Republic law). Basically, they don't declare war, they call for crusades.
I intended this ultimate pledge of fealty to be more ceremonial than anything else in times of peace. It would have been instituted originally as a measure to quickly coordinate the Order in times of conflict and avoid internal squabbles when swift action was required; I imagine calling upon it might be viewed as controversial or belligerent (as per Lord Hoth; in my ideas for the rehabilitation of Jedi vs Sith, I intend to emphasise his conflict with his High Council over the aggressive methods he wishes to employ against Lord Kaan’s heretics). The feudal analogue was acknowledged when I wrote it; the Hitlerian one was not, though when you say it, I can see the connection. That was, however, unintentional.You can have the Grand Master be a Pope, or you can have him be a patriarch. You can't simultaneously have a decentralized system and absolutism. Besides, this rubs me as too feudal and Hitlerian. I expect all Jedi swear on the Code.
The name of the Church was something I cranked out on the fly, and could certainly be discussed. I have not yet put it down to any large degree of detail of its workings, but I imagine it as loosely analogous to the Catholic Church, worshipping the Force in its aspect as creator, destiny and omnipresent god. Prominent Jedi of past ages would be its saints, and Jedi holy texts their canon. As for actual rituals, I do not really have any clear ideas, beyond obvious things such as marriages and funerals. Its organisation would be fairly formalised, although there might be various sects that disagree on particular practices or ceremonial elements (as there are within the Catholic Church); all would, however, recognise the pre-eminence of the ruling Grand Master (might be changed to an independent Church entity). Jedi would only make up the very highest tiers of the clergy, as they are fairly few in numbers and cannot afford to fill the ranks of lower functionaries, sort of how the actual Order would be run.I don't think the name of the Force Church is appropriate. Though the idea is good. Really what are they doing to do? Have Jedi priests offering masses? I think a Jedi-centric Force religion should be self-governed by its believers, and it chooses to bound itself to the Order (it is self-operated, but the Grand Master appoints Masters to oversee and liaise with it).
I strongly disagree with the Jedi as a fully-fledged theocratic empire. I also think the Jedi shouldn't be full of shit about their democratic credentials. Akkara might be the "Jedi world"; where the Grand Master is technically sovereign, but by tradition all citizens of the world (the Jedi refrain from direct participation in politics, and therefore rarely vote on their own world - instead voting as simple citizens in their own home states) elect their own government, and a prime minister rules de facto, under a Grand Master as an absentee king (like the British commonwealth realms), represented by a Master dispatched for the purpose. Akkara is a Great Power due to his significant economy and association with the Order, but has its own agenda and power, though its Senator is basically always a partisan of the Order in the Senate.
I would prefer a model more influenced by the Knights Templar, with the Order having jurisdiction on property it owns. This would be regulated by checks and balances to ensure that such authority is not abused, of course.The rest of the Order should be like the Catholic Church. They own property and operate their affairs consistent with the jurisdiction and sovereignty of the states. The grants of land are retirement manors, and simply bought like any other land and granted as a pension.
It would be more like, the faithful checking what the Church’s position is before they make an important decision. Akin to the informal power of the Catholic Church (as of the 20th century, not Medieval times). At the same time, he probably would not go out of his way to influence the populace, as opposed to producing gently guiding general statements on morality (Yoda, at least; that might have been different in the past).I don't think he should have such a heavy hand. I think he should refrain from issuing dictates to the civilian population, religiously inclined or otherwise.
I imagine such vows would be to the Grand Master alone (princes and lords of Jedi would not be sworn to Chapters or other lesser authorities) and thus subject to much the same limitations; at most times, it would be a formality, and they would be called upon only in times of large-scale war or otherwise very serious crisis. It would not be a matter of formally controlling large voting blocs in the Senate, but rather of an informal mechanism; perhaps the Jedi rulers, sharing many common interests, have their own "club" or organisation to discuss political matters, but without any formal obligations (less of a confederation than a weaker G8)? Or perhaps something even looser, with Jedi dynasties simply being favourably inclined towards the Order?I significantly agree with soft influence and alliance due to Jedi lineages in Old Families. However, I think they should rule their worlds consistent with being a politician, not a tool of the Order. I think they're only bound rules of fealty while not "seconded" or "inactive"; and I don't think they can be elected or serve in secular office while active due to obvious conflicts of interest. I don't think the Jedi should deliberately and constantly undermine the legal system.
With the reduced power of the revised Order, I would agree.I'd go with simply "one of the most influential."
I was thinking of a few alternatives there, and that could be another one. The number and particular titles of the Great Officers of State are generally up for discussion; I thought about adding a Treasurer, for example. What do you think?This is relatively straightforward. I like the idea of Great Officers of State administering the various needs and ideas of the Order. I don't know about "Lord Captain General" - maybe a more obscure reference instead of the direct usage here. Maybe the Byzantine Grand Domestic?
The overall point I was attempting to get across there was that only the greatest and most prestigious Masters could be considered for election; this would coincide with the ancient knightly lines. So, it would not be a legal requirement per se, but in practice non-nobles or “upstarts” joining their ranks would be incredibly rare.I think that the inheritance angle should be there, but not so obvious. More like the relationship between Great Families and their States. They're not truly investured royals or nobles, but they're very influential and historically prestigious.
I am using the Prince-Electors as a loose model and attempting to combine that with the Jedi Council and organisation the existent EU shows.Are you using the Electors of the Holy Roman Empire as an analog? The College of Cardinals?
Right, that is a leftover from an earlier draft, staying closer to the existent prequel Order, that should have been edited out. It will be gone in the final version. It was badly phrased at that; it should supposedly say that its jurisdiction was appellate.This is kind of nonsensical because it is an adversarial trial court, but with inquisitors? Shouldn't it be an inquisitorial system? Also, how could it possibly do this for all cases? Shouldn't it have appellate jurisdiction in almost all cases? You need to define especially the very rare cases where it has original trial jurisdiction, and detail an actual judicial and legislative apparatus.
Agreed; it might be a matter of negotiation, but it should not be the Order’s decision alone. I think that is another remnant of an earlier draft.I think that distinction should be up to the Republic, not the Jedi. Its meaningless if the Jedi get to choose if their under Republic jurisdiction.
Perhaps. That would be some Master's much-simplified and coordinated interpretation, I presume, similar to the role Odan-Urr's interpretation is given in the RPG? A Catechism of Urr?I think this canon should be more or less fully ceremonial, with a much more legally robust day-to-day constitution (I'm sure they have good lawyers).
Right; this piece was not intended to be entirely comprehensive, merely to give an introduction to my take on the Order. I would expand and flesh out the actual structure a bit more in the final version.More clarity is needed on the various power/decentralization of jurisdiction amongst the various levels of the Order.
I see. The way I see it, it is a semi-sovereign knighthood order like the Knights of Malta today. It has Order property (like a church or corporation) as well as small grants of territory where it is semi-soveriegn. My suggestion was to call them Jedi Enclaves or something. And corresponding to special quasi-bisophric "seat" (in conjunction with traditional spheres of jurisdiction, etc.).Darth Hoth wrote:Ferdinand was merely a playful suggestion. And I imagine Lord would be an honorary title; I would not think Yoda nobility by birth. As for the Order’s legal status, I kept that deliberately vague, so as not to conflict with anything else when I wrote it up (part of this piece was based on old pre-EUFic notes/drafts).
I strongly oppose this level of power. Its too direct and strong.Darth Hoth wrote:I may have been a bit unclear there; in the model I imagined, the Order would be a quasi-independent state in its own right, with it owning property and having political power over a number of worlds (the Estates).
Again I oppose. Every knight gets a fiefdom? Where did the Jedi acquire the right to assign territories to their vassals, and how can they support self-determination. I oppose this as well.Darth Hoth wrote:In addition, there would be the fiefs of individual Knights (vassal-states of varying degrees of independence, typically inherited patrilineally)
I support the idea the Jedi are aspect to protect or supervise the rehabilitation of certain states, especially those ravaged by dark siders.Darth Hoth wrote:and the protectorates – polities under temporary Jedi administration in a fashion not too dissimilar to your posited mandate system for Republic powers. Their rule over these areas would be interimistic, e.g. during or after conflicts against heretics. The vassal-states would not be part of the Order proper, but rather areas held indirectly (through the persons of certain of its members).
Its simply unfair. The other States are not allowed to interfere of their own accord in other state's property and citizenry, and it would be wholly hypocritical for the Order to formally be a feudal theocracy with universal jurisdiction subject to no direct checks (in essence, your JO is more powerful than the Republic Authority despite having similar jurisdiction, a creature and dependent on the States through the Senate, while having sovereignty in of itself). The Jedi should be reviled as a state-sanctioned church, as excessively interfering, accusations of de facto feudalism/oligarchy/theocracy without it being absolutely true and enshrined in official law and documentation. That's not very ambiguous. They're the Fourth Estate or Branch of Government, they'll always be mistrusted.Darth Hoth wrote:But it appears I am in the minority wishing for the Jedi to wield power as a state, in addition to that of the Order as such.
Owning planets is not the same thing as sovereignty. For example, the U.S. government does not OWN the entire property of the U.S., but it is sovereign territory of it. In other words, anyone can legally buy it, but their actions must be consistent with the laws of the sovereign. I can see the Jedi having a few semi-sovereign Vatican/Malta-type enclaves, but as I said, I see them tied to the sovereignty of a seat in similarity to a bishopric (compare to the sovereign co-princedom of Andorra owned by a Spanish bishop and the electorates and principalities controlled by bishops in Germany). And rather than lording over any inhabitants, I see them maintaining a modern monarchy-type relationship with them, allowing them to govern themselves with minor interference, perhaps represented by a governor-general esque official whilst busy. And as I said, there can be Jedi states, but their relationship to them should be like that between the British Crown and the commonwealth realms. And they should be pretty few. Enough where there's ambiguity to aggravate anti-Jedi agitators, but enough where the Jedi aren't lording assholes.Darth Hoth wrote:Well, then; I can modify my approach towards your more Catholicesque model, but I would prefer if the Jedi maintained some semblance of independently ruled land; as models, one could use Rhodes, Cyprus, Malta under the Hospitalliers (technically perpetually leased, not owned, but still . . . ) or the Vatican; a few planets of their own would not hurt too much, and that is literally smaller (in terms of relative scale) than aforementioned entities.
Agreed. Even a relatively small guard or retainer-force in the grand scheme can be an impressive fleet up close. Ultimately the TF fleet in TPM is the equivalent of shipping private security, and "trivial."Darth Hoth wrote:The Jedi ruling worlds as part of their "civil" life (such as Prince Farfalla in Jedi vs Sith) would have forces of their own, though those would not strictly be under Order jurisdiction. As for the Order itself, I would imagine it supports a small fleet and garrisons to protect its own assets – in my proposed revised model nothing grand, akin to the Knights Templar in their later stages and adapted for the setting. The Inquisition might also need smaller detachments of crack troops for their work, as they would need to act swiftly and preferably secretly in most cases. I can agree that these forces should be smallish and inadequate for launching offensive campaigns, but not utterly pathetic like, say, the Swiss Guard; if attacked, they should be able to at least attempt to hold their own till aid can be called for.
You're just being too generalizing and exacting. There's nothing wrong with Hoth using personal grants of loyalty, it should isn't something that needs to be codified explicitly in the Jedi constitution throughout their history. Add ambiguity and room for transition and phases of policy within the Order. Talk about how personality and the constitution permit strong and weak Grand Masters. Talk about how the loyalty is ambiguous. Have something like an oath to uphold the Code and vague constitutional precedents of "fealty" reaching from individual Knights to the Order. Have Hoth be doing something which is dramatic yet precedented, but arguably extraconstitutional. Think the constitution of the Roman principate under Augustus. Something like that.Darth Hoth wrote:I intended this ultimate pledge of fealty to be more ceremonial than anything else in times of peace. It would have been instituted originally as a measure to quickly coordinate the Order in times of conflict and avoid internal squabbles when swift action was required; I imagine calling upon it might be viewed as controversial or belligerent (as per Lord Hoth; in my ideas for the rehabilitation of Jedi vs Sith, I intend to emphasise his conflict with his High Council over the aggressive methods he wishes to employ against Lord Kaan’s heretics). The feudal analogue was acknowledged when I wrote it; the Hitlerian one was not, though when you say it, I can see the connection. That was, however, unintentional.
So? The U.S. Armed Forces swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States; I don't see that causing them to turn into quarrelsome pockets of would-be constitutional lawyers. I'm saying its better for the Order's long-term stability if their fundamental loyalties rely on a culture and ethical system as opposed to a crudely direct Leadership Principle. Like I said, have Hoth be inspired by Augustus or something, using ostensibly precedented and legal mechanisms to really do something necessary but extraconstitutional. Have it controversial, debated, and ambiguous. The way you had it it'd just be a one paragraph devolution from "oh okay, we have to obey the Grand Master" instead of great debate and struggle and trying to fix a crisis the Order is not authorized to and that the Grand Master cannot wield the power necessary to work through.Darth Hoth wrote:The problem with swearing upon the Code would be that it makes for conflicting factions – taken literally (as oaths and laws frequently are) that would put every Knight’s allegiance to his individual interpretation of the Code above that to the Order and its rulers.
Meh, less Christian esque, please. Something seemingly inspired by how Luke tries to guide Isolder in the ways of the Force and Jedi philosophy in The Courtship of Princess Leia. Have it an autonomous communion of faiths and religious organizations which are bound to a common Jedi philosophical body (ultimately responsible to the Grand Master and High Council). They're just people who want guidance on Jedi philosophy and doctrine which they've adopted of their own accord as a quasi-Bhuddist faith or philosophy. It really makes no sense for it to be ritualized. People pray because they think a single conscious God intercedes on their behalf and that they have a covenant with Him because of their belief and his scripture. This is not comparable to the Force. So the church should really be something like Unitarian Universalists, self-operated and philosophical-charitable organizations who support the Jedi and follow their philosophy, which is advised by Jedi sages, but who otherwise are pretty hands-off.Darth Hoth wrote:The name of the Church was something I cranked out on the fly, and could certainly be discussed. I have not yet put it down to any large degree of detail of its workings, but I imagine it as loosely analogous to the Catholic Church, worshipping the Force in its aspect as creator, destiny and omnipresent god. Prominent Jedi of past ages would be its saints, and Jedi holy texts their canon. As for actual rituals, I do not really have any clear ideas, beyond obvious things such as marriages and funerals. Its organisation would be fairly formalised, although there might be various sects that disagree on particular practices or ceremonial elements (as there are within the Catholic Church); all would, however, recognise the pre-eminence of the ruling Grand Master (might be changed to an independent Church entity). Jedi would only make up the very highest tiers of the clergy, as they are fairly few in numbers and cannot afford to fill the ranks of lower functionaries, sort of how the actual Order would be run.
Fair enough, see above.Darth Hoth wrote:As mentioned above, I am prepared to scale down the extent of Jedi power, but I would prefer them to rule a few worlds as their own. That is less than nothing on a galactic scale (I would really prefer something larger, even if it is something insignificant like the Corporate Sector), but might have ceremonial value (functioning as the Vatican, only more so). The Order as such might well champion democratic ideals and be generally withdrawn from politics, but I would expect it to want safeworlds of its own for its repositories of lore and vaults of dangerous artefacts. We could use the model I believe you proposed earlier, with Akkara and a few other worlds being the states the Order held before the formal organisation of the Galactic Republic, and thus theirs by custom and acclaim. Or, Akkara might be a Great Power in its own right that is sympathetic to the Order and allows them a planet to hold in perpetual lease, as the Hospitalliers did with Malta.
Yeah but yours really is unambiguously loathsome to any modern person. It should be something soft but ambiguous enough where Palpatine or his people or other opponents and powerful rivals resent and can exaggerate or insinuate negative things or perverse ties of power toward them, as opposed to codified explicitly. American leftists don't need business corporations to literally be incorporated into the governing and power complex to campaign against them and insinuate class-solidarity action and opposition to the others on their behalf.Darth Hoth wrote:Part of why I am adopting a more feudal, privilege-oriented model is an attempt to explain why there is such simmering resentment towards the Order in certain quarters; it is much more difficult to agitate against an Order of humble apolitical monks in homespun robes who serve the Republic’s will than a class of superheroic nobles in shining armour with great wealth and prestige.
Think constitutional conventions, old precedents, and traditional prerogatives instead of explicitly codified relationships and laws. Not to mention this gives you wiggle room to show the Jedi shifting around and evolving and cycling through trends through time.Darth Hoth wrote:I would prefer a model more influenced by the Knights Templar, with the Order having jurisdiction on property it owns. This would be regulated by checks and balances to ensure that such authority is not abused, of course.
See above. I do think the Jedi should have powerful prestige amongst people who follow their philosophy and people who've been saved by them (likely many converts). But I prefer the idea they predominantly avoid direct influence (of course in extreme circumstances, be they crisis or corruption, I can see that traditional prescription falling by the wayside - perhaps another of Kaan's exigencies of crisis).Darth Hoth wrote:It would be more like, the faithful checking what the Church’s position is before they make an important decision. Akin to the informal power of the Catholic Church (as of the 20th century, not Medieval times). At the same time, he probably would not go out of his way to influence the populace, as opposed to producing gently guiding general statements on morality (Yoda, at least; that might have been different in the past).
I don't think civilly-serving Jedi should be bound in any way (aside from Jedi ethics and the Code; but the Jedi can't come over and imprison or kill you, just excommunicate you; unless you go and be a dark sider and violate Republic law and they're authorized to intervene as if you were any other tyrant or criminal). Of course, I do see informal links of power and influence, which can be exaggerated and derided depending on the times, and even abused for good or bad reasons during times of crisis or corruption.Darth Hoth wrote:I imagine such vows would be to the Grand Master alone (princes and lords of Jedi would not be sworn to Chapters or other lesser authorities) and thus subject to much the same limitations; at most times, it would be a formality, and they would be called upon only in times of large-scale war or otherwise very serious crisis. It would not be a matter of formally controlling large voting blocs in the Senate, but rather of an informal mechanism; perhaps the Jedi rulers, sharing many common interests, have their own "club" or organisation to discuss political matters, but without any formal obligations (less of a confederation than a weaker G8)? Or perhaps something even looser, with Jedi dynasties simply being favourably inclined towards the Order?
I do like the idea of them having a lot of money.Darth Hoth wrote:I was thinking of a few alternatives there, and that could be another one. The number and particular titles of the Great Officers of State are generally up for discussion; I thought about adding a Treasurer, for example. What do you think?
I'd downplay the hereditary prestige for overall acclaim as a criteria, though it'd end up being a lot of hereditary Jedi Great Families anyway. One way I do things is propose a generalization from a critic, then I give counterexamples, but then I come and show there's a kernel of truth. This is a way I ambiguate things and leave room for various (even more important in our articles, which for now have the conceit of applying in general to these institutions over 25,000 years of back and forth!).Darth Hoth wrote:The overall point I was attempting to get across there was that only the greatest and most prestigious Masters could be considered for election; this would coincide with the ancient knightly lines. So, it would not be a legal requirement per se, but in practice non-nobles or “upstarts” joining their ranks would be incredibly rare.
Good stuff.Darth Hoth wrote:(And yes, part of that is directed towards Anakin bitching about being treated unfairly when appointed, if we do keep that.)
I don't have a problem with a Cardinal-Electors analog. I like the idea that there are several bodies of power within the Order: the Grand Master as a "decider" and day-to-day manager with his staff; balanced with the High Council, a kind of Cabinet and head of Civil Service, ostensibly representing the Conclave - or an ecumenical council of the Orders' "Bishops"; and finally I think there should be some fundamentals where the entire full-fledged Knighthood has prerogatives. Maybe you could have a College of Cardinals or Electoral College for the Grand Master or High Council or both through some mechanism, sepeate from the High Council (which ostensibly represents and is a creature of the Conclave, which it is a presidium or central/standing committee of).Darth Hoth wrote:I am using the Prince-Electors as a loose model and attempting to combine that with the Jedi Council and organisation the existent EU shows.
I see. Perhaps it could have original jurisdiction in cases of heresy or something by Jedi Masters at the archbishop level or something?Darth Hoth wrote:Right, that is a leftover from an earlier draft, staying closer to the existent prequel Order, that should have been edited out. It will be gone in the final version. It was badly phrased at that; it should supposedly say that its jurisdiction was appellate.
Right, we have much to discuss.Darth Hoth wrote:I have no ready written-out model for the judicial system of the Order as such as yet, though I do have a few ideas. The "High Council" part was not intended to cover that; it will be the subject of a future piece.
Good.Darth Hoth wrote:Agreed; it might be a matter of negotiation, but it should not be the Order’s decision alone. I think that is another remnant of an earlier draft.
Perhaps he was chief justice of their Constitutional Court. Heh. (Not suggesting names, just delineating equivalent roles).Darth Hoth wrote:Perhaps. That would be some Master's much-simplified and coordinated interpretation, I presume, similar to the role Odan-Urr's interpretation is given in the RPG? A Catechism of Urr?
Yeah, I think I overcompensated when I tried to eschew sci-fi psionics in favor of high fantasy magick with a K. I intend to strike a balance between reductionism and mysticism and portray the Jedi as natural philosophers akin to the pre-science thinkers of ancient Greece and medieval Arabia, etc. IMO, the hazards of the dark side are most of what's stopping a completely secular "Unified Theory of the Force" from rising to the forefront and supplanting Jedi philosophy. That would help to give the Sith some nice depth as well.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah, I think you should expand that it is quasi-scientific. Remember technology can indicate some level of Force-sensitivity; Maul's black eye probe droids had sensors that could hone in on the Force.
I would say the Jedi are semi-scientific. They very much do follow scientific pursuits of the Force and supplement them with non-scientific methods and traditions.
Good. I'd expand on the nature of their contractual agreement. Basically the Republic grants them universal jurisdiction and supports their activities under law in exchange for submission to Republic law and supervision. Ironically, in many ways the Jedi Order's relationship to the state mimics that of COMPNOR. It is the Fourth Estate, the extra pillar of government and society. Its a Quasi-AUtonomous Non-Governmental Organization (QUANGO). It is free to self-govern and regulate and manage its own affairs under broad guidelines (basically basic laws governing all organizations, preventing them from abusing authority and individuals, nothing special) and without interference, but is subject to regulation and supervision where its activities overlap on the sovereignty of the Republic. It is accountable where it is acting on the behalf of the Republic Authority or State of the Union or against their citizens.
Well, in my concept the Jedi were instrumental in the Republic's foundation, so it's kind of necessary for them to predate the state, if not the Union it represents. Also, I'm nursing a pet theory that while the Galactic Union is ~ 25,000 years old, galactic civilization is actually much older. I imagine it existed for many hundreds of thousands of years before its modern, mature and unitary form emerged. Off the cuff, and in light of xenology, I'd say interstellar civilizations, plural, have been around for one to three million years. This is mostly to purge SW of aliens with forehead ridges. The near-humans diverged from baseline humans which themselves are descended from the galactic protoculture (Celestials/Architects, what have you). This is the about as obscure and inconsequential as it gets though. I intend to leave that in the background and let the interesting mysteries alone. I'm not going to "solve" the origins of humanity, etc. Some things should remain lost to history.I like. I don't like how the EU just goes "poof" and everything we consider familiar just appears at exactly 25ky before present.
Not a problem.Meh, I'd push this up to ten or so. Maybe a range or limit on age and induction? Clearly they consider 21 (Luke's age in TESB) too old.
Excellent. I'll work that into the next draft.My system was that initiates serve in boarding-school like academies learning basic Jedi training and traditional and specialized education. These centers are extremely rigorous. Apprentices are taken by Knights in various specializations (Kinghts involved in potentially violent missions or work cannot accept an apprentice younger than 16 or 17). At the academy level, after early education, they're granted an academy teacher as a "mentor" - a kind of proto-Master.
In addition to the basic academies, there are fully fledged undergraduate, graduate, and postgraduate education institutions (often in collaboration with existing secular universities; i.e., a Jedi postgrad might split time working on a traditional doctorate at a normal University and doing postgrad Jedi training and scholarship at a nearby facility).
Yeah, I'm totally with you and Galvatron on this. In combat, I expect them to wear utilitarian body armor and fatigues (depending on what they're doing). Their dress robes and armor will be significantly more extravagant and samurai-esque.Ceremonial armor, correctly portrayed, sounds cool, its evocative of real knights and of course presages Vader as the black knight. I'd have no more hermit robes. More like the concepts. More samurai and martial in character. Clear delineation of forms yet distinct and appropriate. I'm thinking Catholic Church hierarchy in a lot of ways.
Fair enough.I don't think all Jedi commanders should be battle mediators, maybe some, but not all.
Thanks. "Magically-catalyzed trans-elemental chemistry" is how I always rationalize alchemy-that-works, regardless of setting.Good work rationalizing their healers and coming up with a good way we can also rationalize Sith alchemy.
Yeah, and I think it's more consistent with our intent to portray them as the bona fide Good Guys.Good work. I think I have more in common with your lightly monastic/religious Order than Hoth's explicitly feudal one. I'll address his post next.
Yes. All I really need is something to distinguish the ass-kicking name-takers from the support guys. To that end, Knights Martial works fine.Could I suggest that all ordained Jedi are known as Knights, and Master is simply an honorific of Knight (similar Priests and Cardinals). The Knights-in-fact could be known as the Knights Martial or Field Knights.
Granted. I'll work that into the next draft, which will be up before the weekend.Suggestions: more on Jedi seconded to the direct service of the Republic and other states. More on "retired" Jedi, or those released from duties subject to hierarchical control, free to pursue civilian or political careers (in-essence, "secondment" is a temporary leave from active duty with the expectation of resumption of duties and role at will, and "retirement" or "inactive" is basically permanent). Also, that the Judicials directly have a troop of Jedi under their sole control, the Knights of the Republic, which serve as their semi-external check and enforcement/prosecution arm. Their job is to ensure the Order is not abusing its mandate or relationship with the Republic.
I think it's excellent and apart from sundry grammatical editing, can't think of anything I'd change about it. As the sole representative body of the Union for so long, it makes for stark and fascinating contrasts with the dualistic, competing legislatures of the Civil War. Depending on how we handle the Clone Wars, the 40s rS are a drastic departure from the unipolar status quo of the last twenty-five millennia. By my reading of TNOiP the Imperial Senate was actually reinstated after its dissolution in 36 rS. So with the first bipolar galactic map since basically forever, the intricacies of the competing Senates are sure to be interesting.What did you think of the complete draft of the OR Senate? Any ideas?
That's how the USMC does it, so I don't see why not. Although with the, ahem, unique nature of the Marines, I'd probably favor "private" over "recruit". I don't see stormtrooper "recruits". You're either grown into the Marines or you change hats from the Army/Navy/Intelligence Service, presumably with an extant pay grade above E-1.Kartr_Kana wrote:what'd you guys think of replacing private/recruit with private, private with PFC, PFC with Lance corporal and adding Corporal instead of lance for E-4?
The highest ratings are assigned to various command levels. Rather than being seperate ranks, they are NCO advisers and staff for their appropriate level, and judged by that. For example, you'll have Squadron Master Chief Petty Officers, Sector Group Master Chief Petty Officer, Oversector Command Master Chief Petty Officer, etc.Darth Raptor wrote:Also, shouldn't the enlisted ranks be expanded as well? Or is the terrestrial number sufficient for reasons not immediately obvious to me?
The idea is that Pestage convened a rump Senate using his preogatives as Grand Vizier and used it to legitimize his Regency; then he later (probably the clone) dissolved it under Isard's advice (probably a major coup in PR and political legitimacy to the NR).Darth Raptor wrote:I think it's excellent and apart from sundry grammatical editing, can't think of anything I'd change about it. As the sole representative body of the Union for so long, it makes for stark and fascinating contrasts with the dualistic, competing legislatures of the Civil War. Depending on how we handle the Clone Wars, the 40s rS are a drastic departure from the unipolar status quo of the last twenty-five millennia. By my reading of TNOiP the Imperial Senate was actually reinstated after its dissolution in 36 rS. So with the first bipolar galactic map since basically forever, the intricacies of the competing Senates are sure to be interesting.What did you think of the complete draft of the OR Senate? Any ideas?
I like the idea of him in AOTC, that's all. We can easily replace him with any new character. Obviously Lucas' Jar Jar proper is no more.Darth Raptor wrote:And we're keeping Jar Jar Binks?