StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Samuel wrote:Didn't have the Prime Directive than.

Pretty sure they did. They just made less of a big deal out of it.

As for the bombardment, Kirk was bluffing... maybe. However, killing an ambassador is an act of war and the Enterprise is a warship- he would have been justified reducing them and the threat they posed to the Federation.

Maybe. But an all out planetary bombardment seems like completely excessive force against one world that couldn't really threaten the Federation. Its like responding to a hostage taking in Iraq by deploying nukes.

Thanatos, that doesn't solve the problem.

Well: Spoiler

Pretty sure they did. They just made less of a big deal out of it.

They were sending an ambassador to establish relations, that makes it pretty obvious that Eminiar VII isn't covered by it.

However, killing an ambassador is an act of war and the Enterprise is a warship- he would have been justified reducing them and the threat they posed to the Federation.

There is also the contact ship the Federation had sent that disappeared. Which would obviously in retrospect have been destroyed by one of the two nations.

Plus they engaged in false flag tactics and repeatedly attacked a warship.

The dialogue in that episode clearly implies that Eminiar VII had shot down the last ship that visited the planet.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Kirk's basically saying: "stop killing each other or I'll wipe you all out."

That's not at all why Kirk issued the order. Kirk gave the order as a means of saving him and his officers and a Federation Ambassador after they had been taken hostage by a hostile force; if they killed him, he wouldn't be able to countermand the order, so killing him would be equivalent to suicide. It was a threat, sure, but what Kirk was really saying was "let us go or you won't live to regret it."

Afterward, when Kirk had control of the situation and fried the war computer, he didn't say "make peace or I'll shoot you"; he said "make peace or Vendicar will shoot you."

NecronLord wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:To be fair, Kirk was never the most cool headed individual. He made some glaring mistakes (like not raising shields in WoK), and he was too militaristic even by todays standards (didn't he almost order the total bombardment of a civilized world that wasn't even at war with the Federation?)

If you mean Emeniar Seven, it was holding hostages, and was actively attempting to force a UFP crew and an ambassador into a disintegration chamber. What's more, an actual attack would have killed no more people than the Emeniaran government killed in its simulated attacks (G.O. 24 is far from 'sterilisation') but would have broken their ability to make war and continue excecuting masses of their citizens.

I think you're mixing it up a little. When Kirk said an actual attack would have killed no more people than the simulations did, he was referring to an actual attack from Vendicar; given the tech disparity and the ruthlessness of the order (didn't Scotty say "all population centers and military bases" had been targeted?) I would expect significantly higher casualties from an attack by the Enterprise.

That's not at all why Kirk issued the order. Kirk gave the order as a means of saving him and his officers and a Federation Ambassador after they had been taken hostage by a hostile force; if they killed him, he wouldn't be able to countermand the order, so killing him would be equivalent to suicide. It was a threat, sure, but what Kirk was really saying was "let us go or you won't live to regret it."

A dangerous bluff though. If they had killed him anyways, the Enterprise would have genocided a world in exchange for a few lives.

Afterward, when Kirk had control of the situation and fried the war computer, he didn't say "make peace or I'll shoot you"; he said "make peace or Vendicar will shoot you."

Probably you're right. I haven't seen it in a while.

I think you're mixing it up a little. When Kirk said an actual attack would have killed no more people than the simulations did, he was referring to an actual attack from Vendicar; given the tech disparity and the ruthlessness of the order (didn't Scotty say "all population centers and military bases" had been targeted?) I would expect significantly higher casualties from an attack by the Enterprise.

Exactly. An attack by the Enterprise would have dealt much more damage. Which is my point: Kirk was using excessive force.

Excessive force?

These morons had been playing cyber war for Five Hundred Years , not to mention destroying and murdering the crew of a prior federation starship. Then engaging in kidnapping, threatening, and opening fire on another federation starship. Frankly, they were extremely lucky the mission was diplomatic contact and trying to stop the war.

As Jim Kirk pointed out, real war is a very dirty, nasty business -- something to avoid at all costs. It aint no game

Eminar has to do with the trailer how exactly?

Anyway, the trailer itself should start showing tomorrow, which means we'll have detailed descriptions and perhaps even some low-res video, with the HD version out Monday to pick apart. I can hardly wait.

Bounty wrote:Eminar has to do with the trailer how exactly?

We're arguing about: Spoiler

Ah, I see, I thought it had just drifted into a discussion about TOS Kirk. My bad.

Anecdotal evidence: I had a buddy in high school that was incredibly bright. He was well-read, had a good capacity for debate, etc. However, he came from a low-income family and wasn't really pushed to focus on academics. He ended up cutting school a lot, and almost never did homework 'cause he just didn't give a shit. The one time he did really well was when we paired up to do a history project that involved filming a demonstrative video (we used green screens, special effects, etc.; that's what I do, so we had the means to do it). He did all the research, script-writing, etc. He embraced it passionately, 'cause he was given a reason to. Fast-forward to now: the dude's got a full scholarship to school and has been maintaining a 4.0 GPA. He's been awarded the presidential achievement award (or something along those lines; the highest award his school confers).

Not quite the James Dean womanizer archetype, but it's a similar kind of turnaround. As his friend, I knew he was smart and capable and all that, but if you'd asked any of his teachers, they would have done that whole "Oh, yeah, not sure about him..." thing that teachers do when a problem student is brought up. He just needed the right motivation. He found it.

The Romulan Republic wrote:A dangerous bluff though. If they had killed him anyways, the Enterprise would have genocided a world in exchange for a few lives.

There is no indication that the Enterprise had the firepower to wipe out the entire planetary population. She certainly had the firepower to inflict the same amount of damage and death as a nuclear war would, and even in such an event, entire populations would not be wiped out.

An attack by the Enterprise would have dealt much more damage. Which is my point: Kirk was using excessive force.

No, he did not use excessive force, he used the threat of force. Very different thing.

McC wrote:Anecdotal evidence: I had a buddy in high school that was incredibly bright. He was well-read, had a good capacity for debate, etc. However, he came from a low-income family and wasn't really pushed to focus on academics. He ended up cutting school a lot, and almost never did homework 'cause he just didn't give a shit. The one time he did really well was when we paired up to do a history project that involved filming a demonstrative video (we used green screens, special effects, etc.; that's what I do, so we had the means to do it). He did all the research, script-writing, etc. He embraced it passionately, 'cause he was given a reason to. Fast-forward to now: the dude's got a full scholarship to school and has been maintaining a 4.0 GPA. He's been awarded the presidential achievement award (or something along those lines; the highest award his school confers).

Not quite the James Dean womanizer archetype, but it's a similar kind of turnaround. As his friend, I knew he was smart and capable and all that, but if you'd asked any of his teachers, they would have done that whole "Oh, yeah, not sure about him..." thing that teachers do when a problem student is brought up. He just needed the right motivation. He found it.

It's easy to turn it around if you start young, because you haven't really fallen too far behind. But if you're already old enough to be going into bars and you're still a delinquent, you're not going anywhere. Especially in something technically demanding, because that kind of knowledge is pyramidal.

Samuel wrote:Didn't have the Prime Directive than.

As for the bombardment, Kirk was bluffing... maybe. However, killing an ambassador is an act of war and the Enterprise is a warship- he would have been justified reducing them and the threat they posed to the Federation.

Within Trek canon, the Prime Directive existed at that time; I don't know if the writers had actually come up with it when the episode was produced. You could rationalize it a few ways; the inhabitants of the system had warp travel even if they didn't use it much, or cultural contamination had already happened so the Prime Directive no longer applied.

Patrick Degan wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:A dangerous bluff though. If they had killed him anyways, the Enterprise would have genocided a world in exchange for a few lives.

There is no indication that the Enterprise had the firepower to wipe out the entire planetary population. She certainly had the firepower to inflict the same amount of damage and death as a nuclear war would, and even in such an event, entire populations would not be wiped out.

If their were some poor bastards still huddling in caves, that's not really that big of an improvement. "Genocide" might have been going too far on my part, but it would still be a war crime, and the total destruction of their civilization to make a point.

And out of curiosity, are their known numbers for TOS fire power? I presume it would be lower than TNG, though given massive Federation demilitarization, perhaps not by that much.

An attack by the Enterprise would have dealt much more damage. Which is my point: Kirk was using excessive force.

No, he did not use excessive force, he used the threat of force. Very different thing.

Well its rather stupid to make a threat you can't or won't back up unless you have no other alternatives. And if I remember correctly, all indications were that the order would have been carried out. I don't think it was meant to be just a bluff.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Patrick Degan wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:A dangerous bluff though. If they had killed him anyways, the Enterprise would have genocided a world in exchange for a few lives.

There is no indication that the Enterprise had the firepower to wipe out the entire planetary population. She certainly had the firepower to inflict the same amount of damage and death as a nuclear war would, and even in such an event, entire populations would not be wiped out.

If their were some poor bastards still huddling in caves, that's not really that big of an improvement. "Genocide" might have been going too far on my part, but it would still be a war crime, and the total destruction of their civilization to make a point.

And apparently an action which was permissible under Starfleet regulations against a planet already committing acts of war on its own and for at least the last fifty years, starting with the destruction of the Valiant.

An attack by the Enterprise would have dealt much more damage. Which is my point: Kirk was using excessive force.

No, he did not use excessive force, he used the threat of force. Very different thing.

Well its rather stupid to make a threat you can't or won't back up unless you have no other alternatives. And if I remember correctly, all indications were that the order would have been carried out. I don't think it was meant to be just a bluff.

This isn't really a difficult conundrum to work out: yes, the order would have been carried out if things had gone wrong. The threat was what gave Kirk his leverage against Anan-7, and at no time did Kirk not have the option to carry out the order if things had gone wrong or to call it off if he was successful. But Anan couldn't know that and instead was forced down the path Kirk wanted him to take out of prudent fear. In that context, the General Order 24 ploy was a bluff and one backed by having the stronger hand.

Spoiler Anyway, I saw Quantum of Solace tonight (because I am a gigantic Bond fan and a new ST trailer is just icing on that cake) and I have to say that I loved the trailer. A couple notes because I have to get up for work in like, five hours.
Spoiler

'Twas merely an observation.

I'm holding off on seeing the trailer (though I've already read descriptions) till I see Bond tonight (hopefully).

I would also point out that the Enterprise was to be DECOMMISONED meaning that it was going to be scrapped anyway. Its not like he stole a brand new starship that was needed for the defence of the Federation, he stole a ship that was to be stricken from the fleet.

Decomissioned does NOT automatically mean she was going to be scrapped, at least not immediately. Not every ship/starship that's stricken off the active list is directly headed for the breakers, the Big E might have been supposed to go into mothballs or be turned into a museum ship (Valen knows she would have deserved it).
Doesn't change the fact that Kirk wasn't exactly depriving Starfleet of a valuable and highly important resource when he nabbed her of course.

The Trailer

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sfstreetlight/3030211291/

Apparently 20 or so seconds is missing off the end but eh.

Apparently 20 or so seconds is missing off the end but eh.

A fair bit is missing but its surprisingly high quality.

Looks pretty good.

I'm not sure about Kirk the juvenile delinquent though. That car he trashed had to be worth a fortune in the time period he's in. Plus who includes their middle name when spouting off to the cops?

That car he trashed had to be worth a fortune in the time period he's in.

Not necessarily. Antiques are an extremely weird market.

Here is the full version http://www.trailerspy.com/trailer/1329/ ... ek-Trailer