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Turin wrote:But why go through all the trouble of trying to turn back Vader if he doesn't think it makes a difference in some way (as I'm arguing, a metaphysical way), if he thinks he's going to be killed along with Vader and the Emperor?

Because it WOULD make a difference by then. The Death Star was a trap. The rebels were doomed. Vader was going to live. Therefore, it was once again worth Luke's effort to turn him away from the dark side.

Galvatron wrote:

Turin wrote:But why go through all the trouble of trying to turn back Vader if he doesn't think it makes a difference in some way (as I'm arguing, a metaphysical way), if he thinks he's going to be killed along with Vader and the Emperor?

Because it WOULD make a difference by then. The Death Star was a trap. The rebels were doomed. Vader was going to live. Therefore, it was once again worth Luke's effort to turn him away from the dark side.

If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?

Turin wrote: If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?

You guys make my head hurt.

Luke was willing to die for his beliefs. That's the big choice, sacrifice. Vader was willing to kill anyone and destroy anything to save Padme, Luke was willing to die to save his father and to save his friends (and sister). With all the little by lines in the movies about the Force, it is easy to see how important that decision was in regards to a Light Side and a Dark Side.

Knife wrote:Luke was willing to die for his beliefs.

And? That's what I've been arguing all along -- that there's a metaphysical reason why Luke wanted to turn Vader. Unless you assume that Luke thinks he's going to fail (which I don't think he does except for the one moment of weakness), there's no other point of him trying to turn Vader once he's on the Death Star.

Turin wrote:

Knife wrote:Luke was willing to die for his beliefs.

And? That's what I've been arguing all along -- that there's a metaphysical reason why Luke wanted to turn Vader. Unless you assume that Luke thinks he's going to fail (which I don't think he does except for the one moment of weakness), there's no other point of him trying to turn Vader once he's on the Death Star.

And... what? Is it not enough of a reason that Luke believed that there still was something good left in his father, something that could bring Anakin back? Luke didn't have to believe in or know about the prophecy and the Chosen One's destiny; he appeared to want to redeem Vader independently of it. And quite frankly, that is, perhaps, part of the reason why it was Anakin, not Vader, whom Luke saw to die: ever since his childhood, everyone had expected Anakin to be the Chosen One, the person to re-balance the Force, the vanquisher of the Sith, the hero of the age, the greatest Sith Lord ever, the most potent apprentice candidate ever etc. Luke didn't know anything about that, and in fact did what he did DESPITE Vader's power and potential in the dark side. And while Kenobi and Yoda might have wanted Luke to resurrect the Jedi Order, Luke clearly had other plans (although he did urge Leia to continue where he left should he not return from his confrontation with Vader).

Knife wrote:

Turin wrote: If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?

You guys make my head hurt.

Luke was willing to die for his beliefs. That's the big choice, sacrifice. Vader was willing to kill anyone and destroy anything to save Padme, Luke was willing to die to save his father and to save his friends (and sister). With all the little by lines in the movies about the Force, it is easy to see how important that decision was in regards to a Light Side and a Dark Side.

Sacrifice is the wrong word there. Anakin was willing to sacrifice everything and everyone to to save Padme. The difference was he needed to be alive to do it.

Turin wrote:If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?

Here's a thought: maybe Luke knew he had to manipulate Palpatine into attacking him in the same way he was goaded into doing the same thing by the emperor. That being the only way to force Vader into making a pivotal choice.

His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.

Galvatron wrote:

Turin wrote:If that's the case I still don't get why Luke threw away his lightsaber while standing a few meters away from a powerful force user. He's got to live in order to turn Vader (which hasn't happened yet). Luke has precog, so presumably either he "knew" what was about to happen to him or he "knew" the rebels would win and destroy the Death Star. I don't have the novelization -- does it support either?

Here's a thought: maybe Luke knew he had to manipulate Palpatine into attacking him in the same way he was goaded into doing the same thing by the emperor. That being the only way to force Vader into making a pivotal choice.

His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.

Or Luke knew he was about to be smoked Jedi and cried out in desperation.

havokeff wrote:

Galvatron wrote:His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.

Or Luke knew he was about to be smoked Jedi and cried out in desperation.

Well, and we need to account for whatever precog is there, too. That's why I asked if there was anything in the novelization that gives a bit more insight into Luke's actual thoughts at the time.

havokeff wrote: Sacrifice is the wrong word there. Anakin was willing to sacrifice everything and everyone to to save Padme. The difference was he needed to be alive to do it.

True, let me edit that just a bit:

Self Sacrifice.

Turin wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Galvatron wrote:His cries of "Father, please!" showed that he still believed there was a chance Vader would intervene on his behalf. And he was right. Like Vader admitted with his dying breath.

Or Luke knew he was about to be smoked Jedi and cried out in desperation.

Well, and we need to account for whatever precog is there, too. That's why I asked if there was anything in the novelization that gives a bit more insight into Luke's actual thoughts at the time.

The only precog we see Luke have is when he is meditating and concentrating on it. I'm sure he has basic Jedi fighting precog, but assuming he knew what was going to happen when neither Yoda, Vader or Palpatine knew is a bit of a stretch.

havokeff wrote:The only precog we see Luke have is when he is meditating and concentrating on it. I'm sure he has basic Jedi fighting precog, but assuming he knew what was going to happen when neither Yoda, Vader or Palpatine knew is a bit of a stretch.

Actually, in the ESB novel Luke has a series of dreams showing the torture of his friends at Cloud City, prompting him to go there. The movie trims around that and cuts to his final vision that has him make the decision, but ther eis the interesting parallel with Anakin there.

Shit. Guess I have to read that again. Thanks Ender.

havokeff wrote:

Turin wrote:Well, and we need to account for whatever precog is there, too. That's why I asked if there was anything in the novelization that gives a bit more insight into Luke's actual thoughts at the time.

The only precog we see Luke have is when he is meditating and concentrating on it. I'm sure he has basic Jedi fighting precog, but assuming he knew what was going to happen when neither Yoda, Vader or Palpatine knew is a bit of a stretch.

The precog is probably a red-herring without direct evidence of it anyway, so nevermind that.

I think Tiriol is assuming that when I say there's a "metaphysical" goal that I'm talking about the whole prophesy of the Force that we hear about in the prequels, but that's not the case. I'm talking about redeeming Vader from the Dark Side for its own sake, even though he expects that everyone on the Death Star is going to be dead shortly. One can argue that eventually Luke doesn't believe that (although I'm not convinced it's more than a momentary loss of faith), but up until that point Luke is still trying to resist the Emperor and turn his father back. Which means that "saving the soul" of Vader is important for its own sake.

Now, whether that means that Yoda and Obi-wan think that is a whole other kettle of fish. They obviously don't think Vader can be turned back. I think it's easily possible they only care about destroying Palpatine and Vader, and if Luke survives "hey, bonus!"