Stark wrote:you can't be serious; UI and 'film grain' makes it a different game, despite being trivial, totally superficial changes that (for instance) you can apply to UE3.0 with four lines of code?
No, I don't think it would be fair to determine if a game is a mod solely based on it's changes to the game engine. It's the combination of new art, gameplay type, AI, story, netcode, UI and importantly doesn't need the original to run. It's not a very rigid definition however, there is probably a better one.
Stark wrote:L4D's engine -> hl2 being compared to gears -> ut3 is totally unfair, since valve has spent the time since hl2 came out hacking in new capabilities. l4d didn't add those capabilities; valve already had hacked most of them in for the 'episodic' hl2 releases. conversely, between ut3 and gears2 there were such fundamental changes it's considered a new version of the engine and ut3 was recently upgraded to the same standard because they're developed in parallel. thus, l3d takes advantage of improvements in the interim not developed by the l4d mod team, whereas the gears team actually worked on and improved the ue engine itself.
I wasn't aware there were extensive changes in the production of Gears 2.
Okay, Left 4 Dead takes advantages of engine changes that were produced by a different team within Valve. What about if it was the Left 4 Dead team who made those changes, would that make a difference in your opinion? Epic Games could have had a separate team make the changes to the UT engine, then started Gears 2, I don't think this would make Gears 2 any less a game in it's own right.
There's a huge
list of games that use the Unreal Tournament engine. Many developers are going this route because it allows them more time to focus on producing a game. I can't imagine all the games that use the UT engine make changes to it.
Stark wrote:i think u235s set-based idea that, say, all mods are games but not all games are mods probably makes the most sense on a case-by-case basis
Stark wrote:to be honest it really looks like everyone was fine calling fan-made manipulations of a game 'mods' for more than a decade, even if they were sold full-price like CS, but now that valve has released nothing but uplifted mods for years people consider it's time to change this without explaining how it makes sense beyond 'omg people licence'
It's only recently we've had the availability of development tools and support that are needed to produce such extensive overhauls such as Red Orchestra and Age of Chivalry. Now we're seeing many developers purchase 3rd party engines such as the UT and Source engines. Maybe someone addressed this and missed I it but what happens when Valve, ID and Epic Games stop producing games and just market the engine? If Red Orchestra (as a standalone from steam, using only the UT engine and no content) is a mod what are these future games going to be mods of?
Surely an important part in identifying something as a mod would be that mods are a package of files that an end-user applies to (modifies!) an existing game. Red Orchestra as a mod is something you apply to your copy of UT. Red Orchestra as a game is something you can play without UT. It might have started as a mod, you might say it's nothing more than a glorified mod, but the steam version isn't dependent on the original Unreal Tournament game, it uses the Unreal Tournament engine.
Perhaps a mod is no longer a mod if it contains enough content to release it as a stand-alone product without any of the original content besides the engine. Red Orchestra, Left 4 Dead can, and have been. Age of Chivarly is currently a mod, but is about at the same stage. Things like Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul can't exist independant of Oblivion.
Stark, how about saying any "game" that could feasibly exist in a previous games engine without extensive modification to the game engine a mod? Thus Left 4 Dead could run as a Half Life 2 mod (I don't know how much effort it would take to create the AI director, but I'm sure it could) and is thus a mod. Let's say Dawn of War 2, which couldn't run on Company of Heroes as it is using an upgraded engine, or Black Shark and LOMAC are not. Also this would mean that Gears of War 2 isn't a Gears of War 1 mod. This would provide a fairly rigid definition, but wouldn't this make any of
these games that didn't make enough engine changes to be considered a new engine mods?
Is it the case that Left 4 Dead started as a Half Life 2 mod, and not something built on the Source Engine? In fact, Team Fortress 2 was in development years before Source and Half Life 2 were in development. What makes Team Fortress 2 a Half Life 2 mod, and not a game built on the source engine?
lol that's just shovelware lol am i right lol 