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Cecelia5578 wrote:

Havok wrote:Maybe we can just agree that there are enough changes that Spock and Nero didn't just travel back in time, but they actually jumped timelines, and the one they are currently in is different from much further back than the Kelvin.

The idea that Jack Daniels, Budweiser, Nokia etc. survived a nuclear WWIII seems silly to me and one possible reason for their existence could be that WWIII never took place and humanity was able to progress faster than in the TOS timeline which would explain the size and design differences that are present even in the Kelvin.

Or, rather, the 21st century in the JJverse timeline didn't feature as destructive as WW3/Eugenics Wars that happened in the normal Trek timeline, so there may have never been as great as revulsion against the old order-stuff like capitalism and militarism-to have given birth to a "new human/TMP novel version" faction like there was (semi) canonically.

It really depends on how you approach it. Personally, I think the timeline holds, up until the USS Kelvin got the shit blasted out of it. Past that, some things probably line up with the TOS timeline, but not much.

In TOS there was no question, Starfleet was a military organization. Even so, Pike describes Starfleet to Kirk as a "peacekeeping" force in the film. Still better than the crap Picard used to spout.

It may be a stretch to say capitalism still exists...Picard's family had their own vineyard, Sisko's dad had a restaurant, it's possible Bud, Jack Daniels etc all just evolved with the UFP's economic system...whatever the heck that is.

- Stardates were measured differently in 2233, than they later would be in TOS and TNG. The Kelvin's Captain cites the stardate as 2233 point something. The first part of the date is apparently the year, followed by the decimal and other numbers, perhaps indicating the month and day.

Kirk later gives a stardate as "2258.whatever."

Right, and in all previous Star Trek's the stardates have not seemed to be based on our calender, so that's different.

As for warp, something is different. Speed or distances or something. There are a lot of scenes where it is possible that there was a long gap of time between going to warp and arriving at their destination, but there are at least a few scenes where they obviously are only at warp for minutes.

It may be a stretch to say capitalism still exists...Picard's family had their own vineyard, Sisko's dad had a restaurant, it's possible Bud, Jack Daniels etc all just evolved with the UFP's economic system...whatever the heck that is.

Except Kirk offered to pay for the shots to talk up Uhura. Specifically he said they're "on me". If they didn't actually pay for things, that would seem to be a bit out of place.

Regarding the product placement, even if capitalism does not exist, the recognizable brands could exist for purely nostalgic reasons.

I don't know, I think it's a bit of a stretch to come to the conclusion that the logos seen in the movie exist merely for nostalgic reasons. I think it's more reasonable to assume that those companies still exist and are doing business at the time of the movie.

As I remember it's pretty debateable whether the economic system of the TOS Federation is like that of the TNG Federation. We do have the "no money" statement in ST:IV but then we have stuff like Scotty's reference to buying a boat. The "they're still using money" could refer to physical cash, rather than the very idea of currency. So stuff like logos need not necessarily be interpreted as a divergence from the original timeline.

AMT wrote:Except Kirk offered to pay for the shots to talk up Uhura. Specifically he said they're "on me". If they didn't actually pay for things, that would seem to be a bit out of place.

Using money as a means of exchange is not the same as capitalism. Moreover, we know that money survived WWIII/etc. in the original timeline because of Zefram Cochrane in ST:FC.

Cochrane: I don't know who writes your history books or where you get your information from, but you people have got some funny ideas about me. You all look at me as if I'm some kind of..saint or visionary or something.

Riker: I don't think you're a saint, doc, but you have a vision and now we're sitting in it.

Cochrane: You wanna know what my vision is? Dollar signs. Money. I didn't build this ship to usher in a new era for humanity, you think I wanna go to the stars? I don't even like to fly! I built this ship, so I could retire on a tropical island. Filled with naked women.

You know what I liked about the Spock/Uhura relationship?

It was already going at the start of the "present day" part of the movie, and had been for quite a while - they weren't thrown together by Plot Bullshit.

Anyone catch the dog that Scotty vaporized? It was Admiral Archer's beagle.

There are so many differences between any construction of the TOS/TNG timeline and this movie's backstory-past that you may as well chuck any attempt to fit the two out the airlock. For a start, it's apparent that World War III/The Eugenics Wars never happened: Earth technology is more advanced and they're building much larger starship designs than in the original reality, suggesting that Earth never suffered a period of severe societal disruption and recovery from a major war in its history between the 20th and 23rd centuries. Also, the society on Earth is recognisable as an extension of it's 20th/21st century anteceedent, down to the existence of the same corporations and brand-labels on various products and culture. Capt. Pike obviously never went to Talos IV. The organisational structure of Starfleet is very different from what we've been familiar with; obviously based on a whole different logic than that of known military services given how exchangable commands on a ship are and the lack of a clear seniority system. Delta Vega is (was) now a moon/twin planet of Vulcan instead of a remote planet out toward the edge of the galaxy. The whole pattern of reality is very different; the result of changes far beyond the scope of Nero and Spock-Prime's intrusion into the past from their POV.

Patrick Degan wrote:There are so many differences between any construction of the TOS/TNG timeline and this movie's backstory-past that you may as well chuck any attempt to fit the two out the airlock. For a start, it's apparent that World War III/The Eugenics Wars never happened: Earth technology is more advanced and they're building much larger starship designs than in the original reality, suggesting that Earth never suffered a period of severe societal disruption and recovery from a major war in its history between the 20th and 23rd centuries. Also, the society on Earth is recognisable as an extension of it's 20th/21st century anteceedent, down to the existence of the same corporations and brand-labels on various products and culture. Capt. Pike obviously never went to Talos IV. The organisational structure of Starfleet is very different from what we've been familiar with; obviously based on a whole different logic than that of known military services given how exchangable commands on a ship are and the lack of a clear seniority system. Delta Vega is (was) now a moon/twin planet of Vulcan instead of a remote planet out toward the edge of the galaxy. The whole pattern of reality is very different; the result of changes far beyond the scope of Nero and Spock-Prime's intrusion into the past from their POV.

Indeed. It's far more SOD-stretching to try to hammer the new movie into the original TOS timeline than just to accept that it's an "alternate reality", which was said in the movie. Hell, you can even say that Nero and Spock-prime are from the TNG-verse we all know and love, and the "black hole" just sucked them into a different universe as well as in the past. (Of course, there's really no reason beyond fanboy jerkoff to actually have the movie occupy the same canon as the old series.)

And really, that's fine with me. A fresh start is what the series has needed for a while now, and not having to fit any established backstory (while being free to name drop anything they please) can allow for a myriad of opportunities.

EDIT -- Oh, and so what that some piddly Federation ship on the edge of nowhere got destroyed by a super-powerful, unknown enemy? That shit was happening all the time in the original series, and the Federation never decided to militarize or increase the sizes of their ships. Plus, the Kelvin was already larger than the original Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation. You're not going to be able to convince me that random science vessel #3562 is the largest ship in the fleet.

I think it was said best in the movie itself - "everything is different and everything can happen". If you insist on this being an alternate version of "our" TOS, you can, but the movie just as easily leaves open the idea that this is a whole new universe altogether.

Bounty wrote:"everything is different and everything can happen".

I snorted out loud at that line, almost expecting Spock to turn to the camera and wink.

*AHEM*

Havok wrote:Maybe we can just agree that there are enough changes that Spock and Nero didn't just travel back in time, but they actually jumped timelines, and the one they are currently in is different from much further back than the Kelvin.

The idea that Jack Daniels, Budweiser, Nokia etc. survived a nuclear WWIII seems silly to me and one possible reason for their existence could be that WWIII never took place and humanity was able to progress faster than in the TOS timeline which would explain the size and design differences that are present even in the Kelvin.

As for Delta Vega's supposed proximity to Vulcan, I assumed that Nero had a holoprojector set up so Spock could see Vulcan die from there.

They seemed to be good with the holographic technology on the Nerada, so they could easily have a bigger projector set up.

Gandalf wrote:As for Delta Vega's supposed proximity to Vulcan, I assumed that Nero had a holoprojector set up so Spock could see Vulcan die from there.

They seemed to be good with the holographic technology on the Nerada, so they could easily have a bigger projector set up.

As fucking goofy as that sounds, if Delta Vega is indeed M-class and in the Vulcan system, it seems to lack a lot of settlement for a habitable planet in their backyard.

I didn't assume anything, just assumed it was the same kind of artistic oversight that had an exploding death star seen from the surface.

Pike's description of the Federation made it sound different that in TOS, (was it even mentioned?) instead of an actual government, Pike describes it as some kind of interstellar law enforcing 'task force'. Which seemed to me to be equating 'The Federation' with 'Starfleet'

Also, bringing cadets aboard on shuttles rather than transporter: most efficient way for the sheer numbers needed to be moved? Shuttles had to go up anyway? Tradition?

TithonusSyndrome wrote:

Gandalf wrote:As for Delta Vega's supposed proximity to Vulcan, I assumed that Nero had a holoprojector set up so Spock could see Vulcan die from there.

They seemed to be good with the holographic technology on the Nerada, so they could easily have a bigger projector set up.

As fucking goofy as that sounds, if Delta Vega is indeed M-class and in the Vulcan system, it seems to lack a lot of settlement for a habitable planet in their backyard.

Or maybe we saw all of about 14 kilometers of it and have no idea what population it may sustain. By your logic, if all we saw was Iowa in the movie, you would think there was a lack of settlement on Earth.

Havok wrote:

TithonusSyndrome wrote:

Gandalf wrote:As for Delta Vega's supposed proximity to Vulcan, I assumed that Nero had a holoprojector set up so Spock could see Vulcan die from there.

They seemed to be good with the holographic technology on the Nerada, so they could easily have a bigger projector set up.

As fucking goofy as that sounds, if Delta Vega is indeed M-class and in the Vulcan system, it seems to lack a lot of settlement for a habitable planet in their backyard.

Or maybe we saw all of about 14 kilometers of it and have no idea what population it may sustain. By your logic, if all we saw was Iowa in the movie, you would think there was a lack of settlement on Earth.

I'm fairly certain there were no lights or other signs of settlement visible from orbit when Kirk's pod fell to the planet. Either way, a distant, obscure planet with a projector set up for Spock's benefit is more consistent with the amount of time that passed with the Enterprise in warp than a planet close enough to see Vulcan collapse with the naked eye on the ground.

Not to mention it makes no sense for Scotty to go on about sandwiches if the planet next door just got sucked inside out.

Does anyone think that maybe the view of Vulcan collapsing from Delta Vega was an "artistic embellishment" given by Spock-prime through his mind meld with Kirk? Perhaps he really didn't see it collapse like that, but for the sake of the flashback Spock was giving it was adequate. Plus, out of universe, it's cool to watch a planet get sucked in like that. Why not show it twice?

One difference that stuck out to me (I don't know if this is a difference or if it's just a sign of inferior tech given the times) was the lower warp factors they were throwing around. Nero had just destroyed Vulcan, and the Enterprise has to rendezvous with the fleet as quickly as possible. So let's get there at warp 4? Having not seen any of TOS except for the movies, I have to ask if they didn't break those speeds until TMP.

So let's get there at warp 4? Having not seen any of TOS except for the movies, I have to ask if they didn't break those speeds until TMP.

She was faster in TOS. However, we did see one nacelle getting bumped pretty bad in the debris field, and during the first engagement with the Narada Pike orders power drawn from that nacelle to the weapons; it's very much possible the Enterprise wasn't running at full power between the Vulcan scenes and Scotty's arrival.

I agree on the embellishment theory; in fact, I'm pretty sure more than one person already posted something similar