review of "Gods and Generals" (spoliers)

[Tsyroc]

Ok, here's where my first major gripe comes in. The Battle of Antietam was COMPLETELY cut from the movie. Antietam was a pivotal point in 1862, allowing Lincoln to release the Emancipation Proclimation. Also, it featured the end of Union commander George McCLellan's involvement in the eastern theater. Along with Antietam, McClellan was completely cut in the movie. Kind of surprising to me, since he was such a central figure in the early part of the war for the north. For a Civil War movie styled like this to not mention these two things is atrocious. Hopefully, the antietam sequence will be reinstated when the movie comes out on DVD.

Cinescape.com reported that Antietam scenes (battle?) will be included on the DVD. Supposedly they filmed the battle which was supposed to have been one of the major portions of the film for Jeff Daniel's character.

[Subnormal]

Who the hell would of thought that on a Star Wars Forum we would be talking about the American Civil War.

[MKSheppard]

I might be more inclined to buy that historical whitewash if institutionalized racism weren't still rampant in the Southern states to this very day (interracial marriage bans not being repealed until literally a couple of years ago in some states), and if the Southern states hadn't vehemently fought things like integrated schooling in the 1960's, and if the Southern states weren't still a hotbed of support for the KKK, and ...

Hey, FUCK YOU MIKE.

I'm tired of prissy northerners sniffing as they leave the courtrooms
after winning a court case that orders forced bussing of southern
school districts to integrate them, and on their way home in NYC,
they drive past the local PS, which is 98% black without batting
an eyelid about racism.

Also, lots and lots of homes in the north were built off SLAVERY.

What, you didn't fucking think Kuanta Kinte fucking SWAM over
here? Fuck no, he got taken to the south on a fucking NEW ENGLAND
YANKEE owned and operated ship.

[Joe]

I might be more inclined to buy that historical whitewash if institutionalized racism weren't still rampant in the Southern states to this very day (interracial marriage bans not being repealed until literally a couple of years ago in some states), and if the Southern states hadn't vehemently fought things like integrated schooling in the 1960's, and if the Southern states weren't still a hotbed of support for the KKK, and ...

Hey, FUCK YOU MIKE.

I'm tired of prissy northerners sniffing as they leave the courtrooms
after winning a court case that orders forced bussing of southern
school districts to integrate them, and on their way home in NYC,
they drive past the local PS, which is 98% black without batting
an eyelid about racism.

Also, lots and lots of homes in the north were built off SLAVERY.

What, you didn't fucking think Kuanta Kinte fucking SWAM over
here? Fuck no, he got taken to the south on a fucking NEW ENGLAND
YANKEE owned and operated ship.

Cool down, Shep. You don't have to insult people while making points.

[Wicked Pilot]

Hey, FUCK YOU MIKE.

I'm tired of prissy northerners sniffing as they leave the courtrooms
after winning a court case that orders forced bussing of southern
school districts to integrate them, and on their way home in NYC,
they drive past the local PS, which is 98% black without batting
an eyelid about racism.

Also, lots and lots of homes in the north were built off SLAVERY.

What, you didn't fucking think Kuanta Kinte fucking SWAM over
here? Fuck no, he got taken to the south on a fucking NEW ENGLAND
YANKEE owned and operated ship.

When did he ever say he loved the North? He is Canadian you know.

[Darth Wong]

I might be more inclined to buy that historical whitewash if institutionalized racism weren't still rampant in the Southern states to this very day (interracial marriage bans not being repealed until literally a couple of years ago in some states), and if the Southern states hadn't vehemently fought things like integrated schooling in the 1960's, and if the Southern states weren't still a hotbed of support for the KKK, and ...

Hey, FUCK YOU MIKE.

You just don't like hearing the truth. 40% of fucking Alabama voters voted to keep interracial marriage ILLEGAL in the year 2001. If that isn't proof positive that Southern bigotry is alive and well, I don't know what is.

I'm tired of prissy northerners sniffing as they leave the courtrooms after winning a court case that orders forced bussing of southern school districts to integrate them, and on their way home in NYC,
they drive past the local PS, which is 98% black without batting
an eyelid about racism.

Hey dumb-fuck, I live in Canada, not the Northern United States. We don't have that kind of segregated bullshit here. We never had slavery. Where do you think the underground railroad went, you fucking moron?

Also, lots and lots of homes in the north were built off SLAVERY.

See above, dumb-ass.

What, you didn't fucking think Kuanta Kinte fucking SWAM over
here? Fuck no, he got taken to the south on a fucking NEW ENGLAND
YANKEE owned and operated ship.

Wow, that makes me absolutely sick with guilt, considering I don't live in fucking New England either

PS. You have a habit of "refuting" points made with large bodies of data (MILLIONS of goddamned Alabamans voting to keep interracial marriage illegal in the 21st goddamned century) with anecdotal data, individual incidents, etc. You do this with cigarette smoking, southern bigotry, everything. Grow the fuck up and learn to think like an adult.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hey, FUCK YOU MIKE.

I'm tired of prissy northerners sniffing as they leave the courtrooms
after winning a court case that orders forced bussing of southern
school districts to integrate them, and on their way home in NYC,
they drive past the local PS, which is 98% black without batting
an eyelid about racism.

Also, lots and lots of homes in the north were built off SLAVERY.

What, you didn't fucking think Kuanta Kinte fucking SWAM over
here? Fuck no, he got taken to the south on a fucking NEW ENGLAND
YANKEE owned and operated ship.

Come on Shep, what the fuck is this? You going to try and deny the South still often supports institutionalize racism? Why the fuck are you pissed anyway. Maryland is a border state which actually recovered from this shit anyway. Unlike Mississippi or Alabama for example.

[Ted]

Hey dumb-fuck, I live in Canada, not the Northern United States. We don't have that kind of segregated bullshit here. We never had slavery. Where do you think the underground railroad went, you fucking moron?

Actually, Mike, Canada did have slavery.

For about 5 years, then Britain declared it illegal.

The New England loyalists brought along their slaves.

[Darth Wong]

The New England loyalists brought along their slaves.

Damned immigrants

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hey dumb-fuck, I live in Canada, not the Northern United States. We don't have that kind of segregated bullshit here. We never had slavery. Where do you think the underground railroad went, you fucking moron?

Actually, Mike, Canada did have slavery.

For about 5 years, then Britain declared it illegal.

The New England loyalists brought along their slaves.

Technically, Canada never had slavery.

[Ted]

Technically, Canada never had slavery.

The Dominion, yes, but in 1783, Canada existed.

The colony of Quebec and Nova Scotia and Ilse St. Jean (PEI) and New Brunswick were colectively called Canada.

[Trytostaydead]

Okay, how's this for a resolution?

Go see the movie first! Let's support Ron Maxwell and Ted Turner (brrrr), because we all want to see The Last Full Measure when the Union kicks butt, right?

Well, actually the Union doesn't kick butt, it's just a matter of attrition (look at Petersburg, Battle of the Crater, the Wilderness.. horrific losses).. but if there's one scene that I am willing to pay dearly for is when the surrendering confederate forces trudge past 5th Corps and General Chamberlain orders, "CARRY ARMS!" Perhaps the most astonishing act of the war.

[Durandal]

Slavery as an issue during the Civil War has an interesting history to it. Lincoln only issued the Emancipation Proclamation after France and England made it clear that they would recognize the Confederacy as a nation apart from the United States. He issues the proclamation to turn it into a war over slavery so that he could count on the support of Europe, which had largely banned slavery by then.

Both sides were actually pretty much even in terms of racism; the Emancipation Proclamation only freed Southern slaves, not Northern ones ... though not nearly as many Northern States had slavery as Southern ones. Interestingly enough, Robert E. Lee thought it'd be a good idea to enlist blacks as soldiers, but the Confederate government wouldn't have it. On the other hand, Grant hated the idea of blacks fighting in the Northern Army.

However, it's pretty obvious that the Northern states have grown up a Hell of a lot faster than the Southern states. The Southern states are still bitter over their loss in the Civil War, so like children, they're still pouting over it by trying to oppress blacks as much as legally allowable.

[Joe]

Slavery as an issue during the Civil War has an interesting history to it. Lincoln only issued the Emancipation Proclamation after France and England made it clear that they would recognize the Confederacy as a nation apart from the United States. He issues the proclamation to turn it into a war over slavery so that he could count on the support of Europe, which had largely banned slavery by then.

Both sides were actually pretty much even in terms of racism; the Emancipation Proclamation only freed Southern slaves, not Northern ones ... though not nearly as many Northern States had slavery as Southern ones. Interestingly enough, Robert E. Lee thought it'd be a good idea to enlist blacks as soldiers, but the Confederate government wouldn't have it. On the other hand, Grant hated the idea of blacks fighting in the Northern Army.

However, it's pretty obvious that the Northern states have grown up a Hell of a lot faster than the Southern states. The Southern states are still bitter over their loss in the Civil War, so like children, they're still pouting over it by trying to oppress blacks as much as legally allowable.

As far as the South goes, it's regional. Some areas have progressed considerably, others are backwards as ever (the state of Louisiana, for example).

[Darth Wong]

However, it's pretty obvious that the Northern states have grown up a Hell of a lot faster than the Southern states. The Southern states are still bitter over their loss in the Civil War, so like children, they're still pouting over it by trying to oppress blacks as much as legally allowable.

They've oppressed millions of human beings for a century and a half out of SPITE?!?!?!? If that's true, it's even more contemptible than I thought. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble believing that's true.

Historically, the farther north you got, the less slavery there was. I have trouble buying this as sheer coincidence.

[Durandal]

However, it's pretty obvious that the Northern states have grown up a Hell of a lot faster than the Southern states. The Southern states are still bitter over their loss in the Civil War, so like children, they're still pouting over it by trying to oppress blacks as much as legally allowable.

They've oppressed millions of human beings for a century and a half out of SPITE?!?!?!? If that's true, it's even more contemptible than I thought. Honestly, I have a lot of trouble believing that's true.

I don't really think it's all that hard to believe, personally. I've known people who've gone through the educational system down there, and it's full of distorted versions of Civil War battles meant to glorify the Confederacy. They refuse to evolve because they're still harkening back to the good ole days when "the nigger was in the cotton fields." So, they keep passing this attitude on to successive generations through their educational system and social conditioning. Spite may not have everything to do with it, but you can bet that it's a part of it.

[Joe]

*sweep*

Such truly racist trends are the exception, not the norm.

[LadyTevar]

Can you tell Im a US History Teacher(In training still)........

I'm not going to requote your full explaination, but that was a very good summary of the causes of the war, and how Slavery became the focus for the North.

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is that in that period, a slave counted as 3/5 of a man in population counts, which is how Senatoral Seats are determined. This means, in theory, that out of every five slaves, you could add three men to the population total.
And since the slave population at the time has been estimated in the hundreds of thousands... that's a lot of population to add up for Senatoral races.

Another compromise was the Slave State/Free State choice, which helped lead to the Bloody Kansas episode. For every State that joined as a Slave State, there had to be a Free State joining. (Forgive me if the wording is off... but basic idea is equality of Slave and Free states.)

This is the situation at the time of John Brown and his short-lived Revolution (1850?). For those that may not know, John Brown was an Abolitionist who had the dream of arming slaves and former slaves to throw off their shackles. In order to achieve this goal, he and his sons took a mixed band of freed slaves and whites and attacked the Federal Armory at Harper's Ferry in (now West) Virginia. It failed, leaving him and his band trapped by Federal soldiers... led by Colonel(Captain?) Robert E. Lee. Brown and his sons were found guilty in a Virginia Court of treason and leading an armed rebellion against the Federal Government, and publicly hanged. The young Lee was present as well as several other notables of the time. (once again, please forgive the minor faults in memory)


~~ Not a history teacher, but the daughter of a Civil War buff that dragged said daughter all over the Virginia/WestVirginiga/Maryland/Pennsylvania battlefields.

[LadyTevar]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Even the enduring legacy of Southern racism and bigotry is blamed on the North now?

That's not quite true. What the 'enduring legacy' should be blamed on is the Human Reaction of needing someone/something to blame for why things are so bad for them at the moment.

Modern examples, for instance, include blaming the President (whomever that might be) for why the ecomony is in a slump at the moment, or why unemployment is high.

[LadyTevar]

Okay, how's this for a resolution?

Go see the movie first! Let's support Ron Maxwell and Ted Turner (brrrr), because we all want to see The Last Full Measure when the Union kicks butt, right?

Well, actually the Union doesn't kick butt, it's just a matter of attrition (look at Petersburg, Battle of the Crater, the Wilderness.. horrific losses).. but if there's one scene that I am willing to pay dearly for is when the surrendering confederate forces trudge past 5th Corps and General Chamberlain orders, "CARRY ARMS!" Perhaps the most astonishing act of the war.

Battle of the Crater. (SHIVER)

In an attempt to break the fortifications around the city, the Union digs a tunnel, puts hundreds of pounds of black powder in a room dug under the fortification lines and blows a pit so deep it's still there today...

And the first Union troops into the Crater was a Black Regiment, who get slaughtered brutally by the recovered Confederates, leaving the situation the same. The general view at the time by the Union command? "It was just blacks, no big loss. Maybe it would have worked with White Troops, but we didn't want to risk them" (paraphrased of course)

[Darth Wong]

And the first Union troops into the Crater was a Black Regiment, who get slaughtered brutally by the recovered Confederates, leaving the situation the same. The general view at the time by the Union command? "It was just blacks, no big loss. Maybe it would have worked with White Troops, but we didn't want to risk them" (paraphrased of course)

Sounds like "Operation: Get Behind the Darkies" from the South Park Movie.

Actually, while racism may have been widespread in that era, the difference between North and South today may be related to the distinction between a society dominated by urban influences and a society dominated by rural influences. It is no secret that urban environments tend to produce more social progress than rural ones; movements such as womens' suffrage, civil rights, etc. all began in cities, not in the country. To this day, many forms of social progress are severely retarded in rural areas, particularly with respect to race.

[Ted]

As far as the South goes, it's regional. Some areas have progressed considerably, others are backwards as ever (the state of Louisiana, for example).

I know that in Georgia, in the late '80's, they were still pretty segregated.

My father was shown a video by Atlanta when he was on a buisness trip.

Out of all the thousands of people shown, there was not ONE black.

Although, up until the 60's, such playground sayings as "Enie, menie, miny, mo, catch a tiger by the toe..." was actually "Catch a NIGGER by the toe, if he squeels, let him go..."

[LadyTevar]

And the first Union troops into the Crater was a Black Regiment, who get slaughtered brutally by the recovered Confederates, leaving the situation the same. The general view at the time by the Union command? "It was just blacks, no big loss. Maybe it would have worked with White Troops, but we didn't want to risk them" (paraphrased of course)

Sounds like "Operation: Get Behind the Darkies" from the South Park Movie.

Actually, while racism may have been widespread in that era, the difference between North and South today may be related to the distinction between a society dominated by urban influences and a society dominated by rural influences. It is no secret that urban environments tend to produce more social progress than rural ones; movements such as womens' suffrage, civil rights, etc. all began in cities, not in the country. To this day, many forms of social progress are severely retarded in rural areas, particularly with respect to race.

In my home town, a tiny little place of 2000 souls, where 3/5 of the white population is related by marriage or blood, and prolly the same ratio of the black population is related to each other. A town where the black population still lives up the same two small hollows, mostly surviving off welfare, while those of the white population are either on welfare or older retirees that returned to their roots.
This is the place where my granma would see a white girl and black boy walking together and say "Don't they know better?"
This is the place where my own mother gently discouraged my friendship with two black girls my age, and it took me years before I realized that she'd never invited them into the house, or allowed me to go to their houses.

Children aren't racist. They're taught it by their families.

[Captain Cyran]

[tangent]*Reads through posts, notices LadyTevar's avatar. Does a double-take.*

Gah! A Redmage lover![/tangent]

[Joe]

As far as the South goes, it's regional. Some areas have progressed considerably, others are backwards as ever (the state of Louisiana, for example).

I know that in Georgia, in the late '80's, they were still pretty segregated.

My father was shown a video by Atlanta when he was on a buisness trip.

Out of all the thousands of people shown, there was not ONE black.

Although, up until the 60's, such playground sayings as "Enie, menie, miny, mo, catch a tiger by the toe..." was actually "Catch a NIGGER by the toe, if he squeels, let him go..."

Bullshit. There has been no government-sponsored segregation in Georgia for years. What you were seeing was likely de facto segregation, not de jure segregation.