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Knife wrote:

Trytostaydead wrote:Sorry, what I meant is.. if they took drugs and they're getting over it while fixing their lives. I think that deserves special recognition, managing to get over an addiction and clean up your life, and grade trends should help prove that.

Parents' education should be important. Some doctors earn very little, but what about the poor girl whose dad's a plumber and could never really teach his children much as opposed to the poor doctor?

What? That still doesn't make much sense. Personaly, if they did and I stress 'did' drugs, thats a private matter and one that doesn't need to be disclosed. If they are currently on drugs, then they should be disqualified.

As far as parental income, it should be based on income and not what particular job gives the parents that income. Poor is poor, that should be the point, to help poor kids get into school if they are able too.

What I meant was that is OPTIONAL information. I remember my old high school president was like that.. he was a former druggie.. but he really cleaned up his act.

Darth Wong wrote:As a member of a minority group known for unusually HIGH marks, this is not a personal issue for me and neither I or my kids would ever stand to benefit from such a thing.

But I can understand the motivations behind it; young black kids don't seem to think they can succeed in academics because they see the system as being set against them, and often turn to sports or entertainment as their hopes for success in life. A targeted scholarship may offend some of the oh-so-underprivileged and woefully oppressed white people of America , but as long as the kid DOES have the requisite marks to get in, the notion of the scholarship does make some sense; it generates perceived incentive.

That's crazy. One of the few people I still respect to this day was a black kid I went to high school with. He was as diligent as he was intelligent. He knew that even though other black kids were out being gangstas and bucking authority and the system, that if he worked hard he would succeed. He was respectful to everyone he met and gave everyone the benefit of the doubt. Where is he now? In California. At college. Last I checked he was studying doing what he was damn good at and loved to do, filming. That's the big problem with race scholarships, the ones they'd like you to see receiving don't need it. they're kicking ass because they can. while the others just use it as a sucker way in.

You could look at it this way too. What if I am at a school trying to get a scholarship (wait just a damn second. I am a student trying to get a scholarship) and i get beat out by none other than a minority. For what reason, nothing more than they had to fill thier race quota, and they have plenty of 'white' people with scholarship awards. there goes that hard work (not to mention all that filthy god damned money i spent) down the fucking drain. it may not always happen like that, but it's the possibility to happen.

So? Who's talking about race quotas?

As for targeted scholarships, I'm talking about social engineering. It's easy to talk pure principle and hold your nose high, but if it's not working, and despite this anecdote you mention, you have to wonder if a more utilitarian approach would be effective.

AdmiralKanos wrote:A race-based scholarship which still requires high grades requires relevant work, ie- scholastic work. An athletic scholarship which requires only minimum grades (as you put it) requires irrelevant work, ie- non-scholastic work. The complaint is more legitimate. Why don't we start giving out scholarships for kids who work hard as pimps or drug runners on the side?

I can't think of a rebuttal right now so I'll conceed that point, however, that wasn't the main point. My point is that someone who wasn't born one way but happens to be in the same financial situation as you would expect from certain minorities (which is not always true) wouldn't be able to get that kind of aid. Grades and financial situation should be the determining factor for these scholarships, not race.

AdmiralKanos wrote:So? Who's talking about race quotas?

As for targeted scholarships, I'm talking about social engineering. It's easy to talk pure principle and hold your nose high, but if it's not working, and despite this anecdote you mention, you have to wonder if a more utilitarian approach would be effective.

True, but it should be mentioned that the system as it is (one which has racial scholorships) is not working well either.

ArmorPierce wrote:Grades and financial situation should be the determining factor for these scholarships, not race.

I was trying to say that I could see the case for making all three factors count simultaneously.

Knife wrote:True, but it should be mentioned that the system as it is (one which has racial scholorships) is not working well either.

How many of these are there? Is there actually a lot of money in that? I was exploring it from a theoretical standpoint, and I've never actually examined the scholarship system in the US.

AdmiralKanos wrote:

Knife wrote:True, but it should be mentioned that the system as it is (one which has racial scholorships) is not working well either.

How many of these are there? Is there actually a lot of money in that? I was exploring it from a theoretical standpoint, and I've never actually examined the scholarship system in the US.

AFAIK while in consideration for the scholorship, one gets extra points for racial standing. What those points are varies from state to state according to the laws of that state. I read a report on it just the other day, tomarrow I'll poke around and see if I can find it again and post it here.

Affirmative action's nice, but it's not the key to fixing K-12 education. The most easily fixable cause of racial and socio-economic inequalities is this: Funding for public schools at the local level comes from property tax. Obviously, that means that rich white communities get schools with high paid teachers and new computers and facilities, while inner cities get run down pieces of shit. There are a number of very simple solutions that could fix this problem tomorrow, like pooling all the property taxes in the nation and then distributing the funds equally to all public schools. The rich fucks wouldn't like that one bit, though, and they'd fight it tooth and nail.

Arthur in-case you missed the boat, There is this things called "Private Schools" Rare is it that I ran into anyone who had had a 100K or better a year salery and set their kids to public school

Infact I lived right next to one during my stay in Connectect(Ages 16-18 ) Nearly 20,000$ a Year Private Bording High School Named Ms Porters, rather famous acutal as it was female only,

I leanered three things about that School
1. Atheltics were Manditory and it showed, You could swim, Play Racket Ball, Soccer, Softball or a host of other sports and it showed as every single one of those females were very fit
2. Every single student had either a Laptop or Palm pilot on them, semingly at all times, The School itself had its own T-3 Line
3. The Campus Guards where are formal Military and most with Military Experance, These where not rent-a-cops, The Cross guard was a Door Gunner in Nam, Two of the walk arounds were Marines in Desert Storm and the rest were either Army Grunts or the odd National Guardsmen

ArmorPierce wrote: I don't see how he could make a complain with more legitimacy. Getting a athletic scholarship requires you to put time and effort into it whilst getting a scholarship based on your race is something you could get for about no effort (I don't know how people get so low GPA, mines was 3.7 and I didn't put any extra effort in school work) and just being born.

What school did you go to?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Mr Bean wrote:Arthur in-case you missed the boat, There is this things called "Private Schools" Rare is it that I ran into anyone who had had a 100K or better a year salery and set their kids to public school

Infact I lived right next to one during my stay in Connectect(Ages 16-18 ) Nearly 20,000$ a Year Private Bording High School Named Ms Porters, rather famous acutal as it was female only,

I leanered three things about that School
1. Atheltics were Manditory and it showed, You could swim, Play Racket Ball, Soccer, Softball or a host of other sports and it showed as every single one of those females were very fit
2. Every single student had either a Laptop or Palm pilot on them, semingly at all times, The School itself had its own T-3 Line
3. The Campus Guards where are formal Military and most with Military Experance, These where not rent-a-cops, The Cross guard was a Door Gunner in Nam, Two of the walk arounds were Marines in Desert Storm and the rest were either Army Grunts or the odd National Guardsmen

The existence of private schools has nothing to do with the quality of public schools in rich vs. poor areas. It's a red herring. The school I went to had walls filled with asbestos, vents that couldn't be operated because they hadn't had their bi-annual scheduled maintenance done in over 50 years, desks over 60 years old that had huge chunks missing, ceiling panels that would rot from water leaking and periodically fall from the ceilings, huge patches of missing floor tiles, textbooks over 30 years old, and that's nothing compared to some of those inner city schools. Meanwhile, the public school out by the gated communities was renovating buildings, installing computer labs, raising salaries, etc. The fact that a lot or most of those high-income parents sent their kids to private school has nothing to do with anything, and I don't know how mentioning it addresses my point.

All right. I voted yes. For now, due to lack of time, I will only say that those who are opposed to affirmative action (in general) and race-based scholarships (in particular) ought to check out Bowen and Bok's The Shape of the River, the seminal work on affirmative action and higher education in America. Basically, the authors conclude that without affirmative action (including race-based scholarships), you wind up with almost no blacks in colleges. Ostensibly, you would see a similar reduction in the number of hispanics, although not asians. I'll give a more detailed post later, if possible.

Frank_Scenario wrote:All right. I voted yes. For now, due to lack of time, I will only say that those who are opposed to affirmative action (in general) and race-based scholarships (in particular) ought to check out Bowen and Bok's The Shape of the River, the seminal work on affirmative action and higher education in America. Basically, the authors conclude that without affirmative action (including race-based scholarships), you wind up with almost no blacks in colleges. Ostensibly, you would see a similar reduction in the number of hispanics, although not asians. I'll give a more detailed post later, if possible.

And this proves that affirmative action programs favor people who are not qualified to go to that college over students who are qualified, but happen to be not a minority.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

You know, I remember reading about a university, that, when it began to enforce quotas, saw it's percentage of black students shoot up 70 percent...and it also saw the percentage of black dropouts shoot up 70 percent.

No idea how to verify the veracity of that claim, but I'm certain I heard it somewhere...

fgalkin wrote:What school did you go to?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Midwood HS although it wasn't the worse in the area (because we had a lot of people that came that were from outside the zone)

ArmorPierce wrote:

fgalkin wrote:What school did you go to?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Midwood HS

Good school. Better than the vast majority of NYC's schools IMO.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

It is, but right off flatbush where I might get into a fight weekly during freshman and sophmore years because a group of people would try to mug me and not just from other HS students, infact, it usually was someone not from my HS and even fully grown men would try to get some money off me. It slowed down at Junior year and almost completely stopped in senior year (except for a occasional group that would try to get the white boy).

Knife wrote:

Actually, I have always opposed the use of the term "African-American" since it makes people sound like they're immigrants.

I whole heartedly agree. Your either (if you live there) American or your not. Nobody calls me Scottish American, the whole practice is dumb.

Right On, I'm not a German/English American, I am just American.

ArmorPierce wrote:It is, but right off flatbush where people I might get into a fight weekly during freshman and sophmore years because a group of people would try to mug me.

Yes, that sux a lot.

A bunch of people tried to mug me at the DeKalb Avenue station a couple of years ago (they didn't succed). But ususally that shit doesn't happen near my school (I go to Brooklyn Tech), 'cause it's hard to mug someone when all 4600 people are moving down DeKalb Ave.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

HemlockGrey wrote:You know, I remember reading about a university, that, when it began to enforce quotas, saw it's percentage of black students shoot up 70 percent...and it also saw the percentage of black dropouts shoot up 70 percent.

No idea how to verify the veracity of that claim, but I'm certain I heard it somewhere...

Is there some kind of collective stupidity factor affecting this thread in which people are somehow compelled to translate the word "scholarship" into fucking "quota"?

In my opinion, scholarships should be based off two things and two things alone:

1)Academic aptitude
2)Financial Need

Scholarships based on race that are sponsored by a government organization should COMPLETELY be done away with.

If you want to work at it a bit, you can get into college, no matter what your race. Race simply is not a factor.

It should all concern the two criteria stated above. I know of plenty of white people who cannot go to college because of financial reasons, but, there are people that have the same educational criteria as them going to school simply because of race. That is just wrong.

I don't care what color you are, your skin does not, and should not, determine whether or not you can or cannot recieve a public scholarship.

HemlockGrey wrote:You know, I remember reading about a university, that, when it began to enforce quotas, saw it's percentage of black students shoot up 70 percent...and it also saw the percentage of black dropouts shoot up 70 percent.

No idea how to verify the veracity of that claim, but I'm certain I heard it somewhere...

UC Berkeley. I don't remember the website, but the information's from five years ago. It was a fresh report when I debated affirmative action my sophomore year of high school, and that debate is indelibly inked on my mind.


I just looked up some stuff, and information can be found at:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj17n1-1.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... c/ucb.html
http://www.prospect.org/print/V4/12/jones-l.html (presents both sides of the issue as an article and rebuttals)

Darth Wong wrote:

HemlockGrey wrote:You know, I remember reading about a university, that, when it began to enforce quotas, saw it's percentage of black students shoot up 70 percent...and it also saw the percentage of black dropouts shoot up 70 percent.

No idea how to verify the veracity of that claim, but I'm certain I heard it somewhere...

Is there some kind of collective stupidity factor affecting this thread in which people are somehow compelled to translate the word "scholarship" into fucking "quota"?

This one was a "quota" in that UC Berkeley looked for a minimum percentage of its students to be minorities, and whenever any minority group was underrepresented they altered their admissions process to increase the numbers of that minority.

Is there some kind of collective stupidity factor affecting this thread in which people are somehow compelled to translate the word "scholarship" into fucking "quota"?

Its true in some cases however Wong, every Diploma by US Law has to be awareded before a set Period otherwise questions get raised(Diploma systems at one timed where used as yet another place to hide your cash from the tax man, Simply start your own Diploma fondation set increably high requirements and just sit back as your money's not going anywhere and completly tax free until you break up the Foundation and reclaim your money)

Keeping the above in mind(Diplomas must be handed out) If a school has a policy saying 20 Diplomas must be handed out to White students and Jim-Bo Jones who scored a 700 on his SAT, never showed up for his Junior or Senior Years of High School signs up along with 19 other people, By Law we have to get him the Diploma

Of course thats all an asided as I can't think of any schools that use set numbers anymore instead of a point based(If you Black and you know it takes five points, If you white, Nothing, you need ten points to get a degree is the more common system)