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One thing I always wondered about the location of the wormhole in relation to the Dominion:

Why is it that the Defiant was able to make it to the Founders' planet so quickly, if the wormhole was on the edge of their territory? That would imply that the Dominion's territory isn't all that big*, no?

* Assuming it's not a globular cluster or something, but given the way Trek's always presented "borders in space" that doesn't seem to fit their MO.

Didn't it take the Defiant 10+ hours to reach the Founders homeworld at the high end of it's Warp capablities?

It's also possible the wormhole is within Dominion territory, but in a section that's low population and considered 'backwater'.

That would explain why it took a while for the Dominion to notice Alpha Quadrant 'incursions'.

Maybe the Founders just dont like people living on planets all that close to their homeworld and keep the area around it relatively empty.

How says that was the original founders homeworld?

If you're a paranoid race leading a massive space empire, with an army that will commit genocide without a second thought, you can pretty much move anywhere you want too.

True that.

Odo did seem to have some vague memory of the place when they were first tracking it down, but I'm not sure it was ever said how long Odo's been away, either.

I just found it odd that the Dominion's supposed to be so much larger and more powerful than the Federation, but their mysterious hermit leaders are conveniently a few days of high-warp from the wormhole on the fringe of their territory.

Not a huge contradiction in the scheme of things; I was mainly curious as to whether it had ever been touched on anywhere.

Wasn't the Founders homeworld in the middle of space without any stars or anything nearby? They could just move it to wherever they thought was convenient. Which in this case might be closer to the space the Dominion was expanding.

As for Odo finding it, he could have been aiming for the great link rather than any place in particular.

Lusankya wrote:Wasn't the Founders homeworld in the middle of space without any stars or anything nearby? They could just move it to wherever they thought was convenient. Which in this case might be closer to the space the Dominion was expanding.

As for Odo finding it, he could have been aiming for the great link rather than any place in particular.

IIRC in "The Search part 1", it was the nebula that Odo caught a glimpse of on a viewscreen and became fascinated by - the nebula was what he remembered when he was a 'child' when he and the other changelings were shot out into the galaxy.

That suggests the Founder's homeworld was located at that nebula and rogue planet for awhile.

(of course they did end up moving anyway - as "Broken Link" reveals)

The Founders themselves said they had picked that planet - a rock in the middle of a gas cloud - as their headquarters "ten thousand years ago", but like pretty much anything the Founders say, that's debatable. They didn't seem to mind evacuating it to bait the Tal'Shiar and Obsidian Order.

Then again, while Odo didn't have a firm recollection of the Dominion, he did have a conditioned urge to return to that specific planet, and since it was the actual Founder HQ during "The Search" it is very likely it was their actual home from at least the time the Hundred were sent out to the point where they evacuated it.

EDIT: damn you Stofsk

Well, he was only gone for a few hundred years. That's not really that long when you think about it.

Steve wrote:I believe that's from interviews from Ira Behr and such, yes. The Dominion knew the Federation existed on the other end of the galaxy and would have to be dealt with in a few centuries when better methods of warp travel were discovered. Then the wormhole was discovered in what was likely space just beyond the Dominion frontier and their entire timetable got thrown out of whack.

Yes, according to the DS9 Season 3 DVD set, that was Behr's original plan, but it never made it on-screen (just as the idea that the Hunters were also Dominion members).

Steve wrote:As for Odo, I think the Founder idea was to genuinely learn about the rest of the universe.... until they could conquer it of course.

I agree in-universe that was the likely reason. While Though not technically canon, the novella "Olympus Descending" explores another purpose of the Hundred....
Spoiler

JME2 wrote:I agree in-universe that was the likely reason. While Though not technically canon, the novella "Olympus Descending" explores another purpose of the Hundred....
Spoiler

The Founders were attempting to locate the mythical Progenitor, in essence the First Changeling and the progenitor of their entire race. By the time of DS9, the Progenitor had been long gone and the Founders were seeking it. Despite their longeivity, the Great Link could not be sustained indefinitely; the Founders are incapable of reproduction. This was another reason why the the Link went apeshit over the death of the Krajensky changeling in "The Adversary" and why they wanted Odo to rejoin; every Founder killed diminished their race's numbers.

You know, normally I'd complain about that being really stupid ("how the heck is a species like that supposed to have evolved?"), but ever since I read up on utility fog I've strongly suspected the Founders were originally artificial, as if you look at them through that perspective everything about them screams that they're utility fog constructs. Which in turn makes me wonder who originally created them, and for what purpose. It would certainly be ironic if they started out as a rebelling slave race, like the Shuggoths.

I wonder if there might not be some connection to them and Armis from TNG Skin Of Evil, as he seemed to have vaguely similar characteristics, also being a sort of animate "liquid" (I dismiss Armis's utterly absurd explanation for his own origins as the delusional ravings of an obviously unsound mind).

Maybe because the Dominion, at least according to the FF, encompassed hundred of planets and the Founders are notorious paranoids and so having many more ships than necessary would make sense for them? Specially if they were building up for a war?

So it is an unfounded assumption. Thanks.

I always figured the Dominion was kinda like the mongolian empire. Their big, bad military rolls in and says 'you're our territory now. Listen to this official we leave behind and pay your taxes on time.'

If you do what they want, your life really doesn't change and you never see the big bad army again. If you don't, then your world is depopulated and seeded with a painful genetic virus that kills your species before they die of old age. Think about it; The dominion doesn't need to recruit soldiers or government employees, they don't need resources or your worship. They just want an orderly galaxy that can never threaten the Founders.

Actually, they would need resources. We know specific rare chemicals are needed for the manufacture of ketricell white and that their sources of these chemicals were low enough in the Alpha Quad that A) they were willing to surrender large sections of territory to the Federation in exchange for a system where a key ingredient was to be found and B) that they actually had to import it from the Son'a. And of course you'd need various metals and minerals, logically, to provide the raw material for starship production.

They probably don't need much planetside, true, but I imagine they do things like worker drafts to provide the labor for mining or otherwise gathering these precious materials necessary for the Dominion war machine.

Patroklos wrote:So it is an unfounded assumption. Thanks.

Interesting you ignored all other posts explaining this. As I sad Dominion was winning the war against Federation-Klingon alliance, there was no reason to assume it emptied itself of ships. And finally a large Dominion fleet was allowed back into Gamma Quadrant at the end of the war. Said fleet represented a threat to combined Federation-Klingon-Romulan alliance.

What do we know about the relationship between the Prophets and the Wormhole? I'd be concerned that killing them might destroy the wormhole entirely.

Worlds Spanner wrote:What do we know about the relationship between the Prophets and the Wormhole? I'd be concerned that killing them might destroy the wormhole entirely.

Well, we know that wormholes can be collapsed in Trek, right? I think their was even a DS9 episode where the heros considered doing it to the Bajoran wormhole. And if the Prophets reside in the wormhole, killing them would probably involve directing a considerable amount of firepower into the wormhole. Yeah, the wormhole might very well become collateral damage in such a strike.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Worlds Spanner wrote:What do we know about the relationship between the Prophets and the Wormhole? I'd be concerned that killing them might destroy the wormhole entirely.

Well, we know that wormholes can be collapsed in Trek, right? I think their was even a DS9 episode where the heros considered doing it to the Bajoran wormhole. And if the Prophets reside in the wormhole, killing them would probably involve directing a considerable amount of firepower into the wormhole. Yeah, the wormhole might very well become collateral damage in such a strike.

I thought there was some bit with these comets or asteroids made of an odd material that traveled through the wormhole and reinforced the wormhole so much that it could no longer be closed by any means.

Bilbo wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Worlds Spanner wrote:What do we know about the relationship between the Prophets and the Wormhole? I'd be concerned that killing them might destroy the wormhole entirely.

Well, we know that wormholes can be collapsed in Trek, right? I think their was even a DS9 episode where the heros considered doing it to the Bajoran wormhole. And if the Prophets reside in the wormhole, killing them would probably involve directing a considerable amount of firepower into the wormhole. Yeah, the wormhole might very well become collateral damage in such a strike.

I thought there was some bit with these comets or asteroids made of an odd material that traveled through the wormhole and reinforced the wormhole so much that it could no longer be closed by any means.

No, the comet in "Destiny" leaked silithium particles which in turn formed a subspace filament inside the wormhole allowing permanent communication with the Gamma Quadrant. The Bashir Changeling's sabotage to DS9's graviton emitters during "In Purgatory's Shadow" strengthened its subspace foundation rather than collapsing it. Not even trilithium explosives would have done the job.

JME2 wrote:
No, the comet in "Destiny" leaked silithium particles which in turn formed a subspace filament inside the wormhole allowing permanent communication with the Gamma Quadrant. The Bashir Changeling's sabotage to DS9's graviton emitters during "In Purgatory's Shadow" strengthened its subspace foundation rather than collapsing it. Not even trilithium explosives would have done the job.

Thanks. I knew at some point the wormhole had been made indestructable just couldnt remember the specifics.

Bilbo wrote:

JME2 wrote:
No, the comet in "Destiny" leaked silithium particles which in turn formed a subspace filament inside the wormhole allowing permanent communication with the Gamma Quadrant. The Bashir Changeling's sabotage to DS9's graviton emitters during "In Purgatory's Shadow" strengthened its subspace foundation rather than collapsing it. Not even trilithium explosives would have done the job.

Thanks. I knew at some point the wormhole had been made indestructable just couldnt remember the specifics.

No problem.

Bilbo wrote:

JME2 wrote:
No, the comet in "Destiny" leaked silithium particles which in turn formed a subspace filament inside the wormhole allowing permanent communication with the Gamma Quadrant. The Bashir Changeling's sabotage to DS9's graviton emitters during "In Purgatory's Shadow" strengthened its subspace foundation rather than collapsing it. Not even trilithium explosives would have done the job.

Thanks. I knew at some point the wormhole had been made indestructable just couldnt remember the specifics.

The thing is, it may still be possible to blow it up if the Federation had something more potent on its hands - we have too little info to judge, save only that is not possible to destroy it with existing technology.

Edit: It may also be possible to kill the Prophets as well, which may collapse the wormhole.

A Pagh-wraith possessed Keiko tried to kill the Prophets with chroniton radiation, in order to let it return to the wormhole. So at least that particular Pagh-wraith believed that the Prophets could be killed without collapsing the wormhole.

Necro locked.