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I've contemplated letting players with a high enough HT score to substitute it for colonies in determining Industry. IOW, if your HT is 4 and your CT is only 2 or 3 and you're down a couple points from what you need for the next industry bracket, you can substitute the HT score for the CT score.

I suppose we can let it modify economy and/or population as well at 4 and 5. Maybe just population. Not sure if it should modify infrastructure, and it really doesn't make sense for it to modify a military focus.

I agree with both of these ideas. They make sense and allow HT to be an advantage and be different from CT in what benefit it gives. For the second idea we could just give it a +1 pop at 4 and a +2 at 5, no need to ape CT by including economy.

Well SML is sort of an odd stat at this point, it could be part of the individual focus stats when you think about it. I would support replacing it with a domestic stat for measuring schools, hospitals, and general other areas not related directly to the infrastructure stat. That way all military aspects are controlled by their key stats and we have a way to judge how modern a country is in other important ways.

That's just as easily measured by Economy, Infrastructure, and Industry, though, and SML permits a player to reflect having an advanced army but one that's primarily garrison forces with some professionals.

Steve wrote:That's just as easily measured by Economy, Infrastructure, and Industry, though, and SML permits a player to reflect having an advanced army but one that's primarily garrison forces with some professionals.

I would say that is more of an RP choice, as for Industry et al. see Stas and his post in the points thread for my thought on that.

I've tinkered with the rules, with input from Thanas for the Economy rules and shipyard capacity, here is the latest version. I'll accept commentary. However, I really want to get the ball rolling on a game start by, say, the end of next week.

http://sdnworld.wikia.com/wiki/SDN_World_3_Ruleset

The various bonuses given by territory for example, offer the possibility of powering up. Instead of spending 5 population points to have the USSR, I just have it by spending 4 and spending 5 on Economy.

Voila, I got a free point.
Now it's:
Population: 5 (4+1)
Territory: 5
Colonies: 0
Industry: 5
Economy: 3
Infrastructure: 2
Standing military limit: 3
Navy: 3
Army: 5
Air force: 4 (1+3)

Still anyone wanting to play?

And it's the same way I cheated around spending points like Beowulf did by using the +1 to economy bonus point to override the inability of 2-5 Economy-Industry pairings.

Points awarded for bonusing shouldn't be allowed to be used to override demands on spending a score on certain points. Only true (non-bonus) point demands I feel are good.

Stas Bush wrote:Points awarded for bonusing shouldn't be allowed to be used to override demands on spending a score on certain points. Only true (non-bonus) point demands I feel are good.

I agree actually, in my new description of Brazil I *only* count the non-bonus points when it comes to calculating how big an industry and infrastructure I can have. Otherwise it's just totally unfair.

Incidentally I have an idea for the Army, Navy, and Airforces.

ARMY
For every 10 000 of regular standing army troops you will need to spend 1 Industrial Point (IP) a quarter, half that for reservists. If they are busy doing something, like fortifying or relocating they require x1.5 or x2 IP points that quarter. If they are busy fighting they require x2 to x4 IP points depending on how active the fighting is. This also applies to conscript forces in war time.

NAVY
For each 10 000 tons of tonnage you need to spend 1 Industrial Point (IP) a quarter, half that for the mothball fleet. If part of the fleet is busy on exercises, patrols, or relocation, this increases by x1.5 or x2 the IP points needed that quarter. Actual naval battles increases demands further still.

AIR FORCE
Every ten airplanes require 1 Industrial Point (IP) to maintain that quarter, half that if they are mothballed. If they are kept busy on exercises, patrols or relocation this increases by x1.5 or x2. Actual heavy duty fighting or mock-warfare increases the demands to x3 or x4.

In combination this will make fighting or raiding an expensive concern even for great powers.

Look, here's the deal: I'm not going to calculate upkeep, maintenance, troop salaries or anything like that for this game. I'm just not. I'm participating because I think it's fun to RP a raging egomaniac Sultan, not because I want to play Government Accountant Simulator 1925.

These goddamn ship and drydock tonnage limits were bad enough already, since insofar as I can tell they're there solely because we don't trust each other to be reasonable. Now y'all can go ahead and introduce more stupid calculations, limits and progressive yearly budget developments if you feel like it -- but I'm not going to perform any of them, and you can't make me.

Siege wrote:Look, here's the deal: I'm not going to calculate upkeep, maintenance, troop salaries or anything like that for this game. I'm just not. I'm participating because I think it's fun to RP a raging egomaniac Sultan, not because I want to play Government Accountant Simulator 1925.

These goddamn ship and drydock tonnage limits were bad enough already, since insofar as I can tell they're there solely because we don't trust each other to be reasonable. Now y'all can go ahead and introduce more stupid calculations, limits and progressive yearly budget developments if you feel like it -- but I'm not going to perform any of them, and you can't make me.

ACtually I know where you're coming from, I personally can't stand accounting either, but if I don't do it this way then I worry about certain other players suddenly launching a 30 battleship amphibious invasion backed with poison gas spewing twelve engine bombers. So yeah... :-/ What'd really help would be some guarantee that the mods would be genuinely on the ball and willing to ruthlessly slap down nonsense.

Steve and I dicussed this and I was given some hypothetical limits meaning I got:

Population: 5
Home Territory: 5
CT: 0
Economy: 3
Infastructure: 4
Industry 4
SML: 3
Army Focus: 3+2
Naval Focus: 2
Air Focus: 3
-------------
Basically Steve capped my Industry score to 4 for now and got rid of the HT population bonuses. I think it makes this a lot a airer without getting rid of the benefits of large HT. Besides, I am feel unwilling to lose those benefits.

Oh wow, you were talking about something totally different. But still, the proposed system is balanced like that.

Sooooo are we allowed to use bonuses or anything? Because otherwise, I'd have to settle for a pop point of 4...

Siege wrote:Look, here's the deal: I'm not going to calculate upkeep, maintenance, troop salaries or anything like that for this game. I'm just not. I'm participating because I think it's fun to RP a raging egomaniac Sultan, not because I want to play Government Accountant Simulator 1925.

These goddamn ship and drydock tonnage limits were bad enough already, since insofar as I can tell they're there solely because we don't trust each other to be reasonable. Now y'all can go ahead and introduce more stupid calculations, limits and progressive yearly budget developments if you feel like it -- but I'm not going to perform any of them, and you can't make me.

I'll second this myself. Enough with the fucking number crunching. If you guys turn this into Government Accountant Simulator 1925, then you can count me out.

We should all be able to do a decent job RP our nations, and if anyone gets out of line, well that's what we have the mods for.

Are airship bombers and scouts at this point in time going to be viable and practical weapons of war?

Zor

Zor wrote:Are airship bombers and scouts at this point in time going to be viable and practical weapons of war?

Zor

Not really no, indeed I would go as far as to say that they weren't before the late 1930s, sure you can bomb reasonably unprotected places but other than that? No, not really.

DarthShady wrote:

Siege wrote:Look, here's the deal: I'm not going to calculate upkeep, maintenance, troop salaries or anything like that for this game. I'm just not. I'm participating because I think it's fun to RP a raging egomaniac Sultan, not because I want to play Government Accountant Simulator 1925.

These goddamn ship and drydock tonnage limits were bad enough already, since insofar as I can tell they're there solely because we don't trust each other to be reasonable. Now y'all can go ahead and introduce more stupid calculations, limits and progressive yearly budget developments if you feel like it -- but I'm not going to perform any of them, and you can't make me.

I'll second this myself. Enough with the fucking number crunching. If you guys turn this into Government Accountant Simulator 1925, then you can count me out.

We should all be able to do a decent job RP our nations, and if anyone gets out of line, well that's what we have the mods for.

Thirded. Beyond the systems we need to be in numbered mechanics (such as the point system and even then we should not go too overboard) and optional crap that people can do like Springsharp, we should not turn this into a game of DnD. I want to have fun RPing really, not rolling D10 to see if my troops salary holds out to do his level 6 attack.

Well, like I said, all the more reasons to be reasonable.

As it is, the bonus point abuse is bad enough already, when people use spent points and bonus points together for qualifiers to get scores their nation wouldn't ever be able to get with a bare, no-bonus 30 point system.

My spending for the USSR suddenly lost all sense when the +1 to population qualifier got added. I spent 10 real points to get 5 territory and 5 population, and that severely impacted other areas as it should have, making it in line with history. Now with these revisions I suddenly get lots of boons that I can use wherever I like. I'm no fan of accounting, but making at least these 30 points work right is necessary. Or so I thought.

Not that I care much frankly. My work situation might force me out of this game entirely by start next week.

I cannot account for all the other rules Stas but the whole HT 4-5=more pop could be changed or removed if needed. I mean putting HT 4 in the place of CT 4 when it comes to Industry is enough to change a lot. It is pretty easy to unbalance. In the end all I wanted was for HT to have another benefit, if small and I think just letting you chose HT over CT for Industry is fair enough.

What would you think to that?

I concur, it's already enough that HT can do as well for industry as CT. The problem with balance is that giving "extra pop" is a good bonus if people could NOT use bonus points to pass through qualifiers, like Beowulf used Economy 2 and the +1 bonus point to squeeze through the "Economy = 3" requirement for industry.

A bonus to "some stat" is automatically a loose bonus point for all other stats.

That makes sense. Another option is to slightly tweak the existing systems so that the requirements for them are higher, thus meaning that even if you have free points to spare, they wont automatically bring your industry from 3 to a 5 in one go. The only reason I am doing so well now was that the bonus in army focus let me free up two points and then spend them in other areas.

Oh and as you mentioned about the whole Infastucture thing and how trains were not all that. I was going to suggest the use of small canals and waterways. Many countries still used them a lot in thoes days and they were useful for trading. Maybe Infastructure could account for that.

Zor wrote:Are airship bombers and scouts at this point in time going to be viable and practical weapons of war?

Zor

Bombers at this time are limited to 250 kilogram or less payloads, clock in at 140 Mph(225 Kph) top speeds or 98 Mph and 2000 kilograms of bombs. Because of the nature of the planes they are inaccurate and must fly high. Dive bombing is out of the question on most planes and thus bombing is highly inaccurate, the fancy bombsites of the second world war still having yet to be developed.

Personally I don't really *want* to use Infrastructure 4 either, I'm thinking of bringing it down to 3 and industry down to 4 or something, for more realism and less munchkinism. However it depends on the neighbourhood.

Siege, everyone, I want to minimize the number-crunching. My idea at basis is that every quarter you spend so much industry points based on industrial level and I want these consumptions to be easy to track and calculate. With a lot of cases you could just draw up a basic consumption plan and use it every two weeks (or longer if building naval ships) until you feel like shifting something.

This is why I haven't gone into the particulars of "point expenditures" for starting forces or any number of more complex things I could.


Stas, you have a point, I added the pop bonus to the two highest HTs as a further incentive for people to actually spend the points for them. But looking back I think it may have been a tad late now that everyone's drawn up their point systems. As for pre-bonus scores only... I agree with you and I don't agree, in that it is prone to abuse, yet it's unrealistic to a degree to say "well, since your economy is boosted a point by a large empire you can't count that economic boost toward your ability to support industry".

Anyway, finally, I want to get this game started in a week's time. We've spent enough time claiming and planning and rules-debating. So let me hear final suggestions on the rules, sometime in the next two days I'll post a dead-line on point generation, maybe Wednesday or Thursday, by which time your point expenditure will be considered immutable.

I also want to hear suggestions on co-mods to advise me and, if needed, to together overrule me.

So, everyone, what do you say? Let's get this fucker wrapped up and let's get to playing with our shiny dreadnoughts!

So are we going to allow bonuses to count for industry or not? My original calculation was based on the premise on the lack thereof of bonuses, though i needed a bonus to suffice for the minimum pop requirement somewhere within the rule system.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:So are we going to allow bonuses to count for industry or not? My original calculation was based on the premise on the lack thereof of bonuses, though i needed a bonus to suffice for the minimum pop requirement somewhere within the rule system.

As of now I'm considering letting them count, if only because it feels unrealistic to me that such wouldn't, OTOH Stas has a logical argument and I want to think about it.

Also, however, may I point out that I was letting that swing in both directions. For example, if I spend 3 in Naval Focus, and have enough Industry for a +2 that could let me make that 5, I still would require myself to have the requisite Ind/Econ combined score for 5, irregardless of the bonus. I'd do the same for other prerequisites.

As I've been up for nearly 19 hours I will be retiring soon enough, so let me sleep on it. But I'll make a final decision tomorrow or so, because again, I want to get this shit done so we can start playing.

Did we ever decide if armed transports and such should count for total tonnage?

I have most of my fleet, a good portion (I think close to 2/5ths) either in commission before 1914, or laid down in 1914. I was thinking that to make up for such a rapid build up my economy could artificially be deflated by a point for the first few in game years.