Walk softly...

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Stas Bush wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I'm not enough of an expert to be able to say, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that building a working democracy in a place where most of the population has never heard of it before and where there is effectively no infrastructure would be... difficult.
There had been slavery-age and feudal-age democracies, so quite certainly building a democracy without any modern industry is possible.
True, but they often met certain economic conditions: an effective militia that could make its own weapons seems to help, as I recall, because it dissuades nearby warlords from swooping in and enslaving or enserfing* the population.** That's not going to be present in Hell, because humans need modern weapons to defend themselves against demons, and can't make them. Any viable Hell-state ruled by the human inhabitants will need a steady supply of weapons... and will be vulnerable to those who control the flow of weapons.

Also, pre-industrial democracies tended to be centered around city-states, and to sustain those you may not need industrial infrastructure, but you'll certainly need some kind of infrastructure. Though at that point I guess you might be able to repurpose the stuff the demons built for their own use. Hard for me to say.

It's not that you need modern industry, it's that you need something beyond the level of small villages, with a bare minimum capacity for organized self-defense. Otherwise, it honestly is safer to just surrender to the first guy who rides through with enough combat power to protect you from your neighbors, especially when your neighbors are rampaging murderous demons from Hell.

*Yes, I know, that's not a word, but I'm at a loss to supply a better one.
**Maybe I'm getting this wrong, but consider the citizen-based phalanxes of Athens or Switzerland...
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Edward Yee »

Simon_Jester wrote:Any viable Hell-state ruled by the human inhabitants will need a steady supply of weapons... and will be vulnerable to those who control the flow of weapons.
Not just the weapons but also the ammunition (especially if using weapons that can't accept handloads or reused brass), accessories, spare components for the weapons themselves, the parts needed for the maintenance and repair tools, "raw materials" for all three... and the technical knowhow to be and to teach armorers to make use of these, beyond end user maintenance. And that's even before you count the industrial base needed to make use of these...
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Edward Yee wrote:Not just the weapons but also the ammunition... (assorted other essentials)
Yes; I was folding all that into "weapons" for the sake of brevity.
and the technical knowhow to be and to teach armorers to make use of these, beyond end user maintenance. And that's even before you count the industrial base needed to make use of these...
...Though once you have that, your dependency on foreign support drops off considerably.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by spartasman »

Raw resources are really a non-issue, it has been stated numerous times that hell has nearly endless amounts of precious minerals and metal, the only hurtle is the equipment to extract these resources, which I am sure that several Earth-based companies would be eager to supply. As for the technical know-how to create weapons and machinery, you seem to be overlooking the fact that nearly every person who has ever lived is in hell, and that includes every gun manufacturer, every factory worker, every arms inventor from Ferguson to Kalashnikov. There is hardly any need to train people in anything more than assembly line work, which is like teaching a monkey how to eat a banana.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

spartasman wrote:Raw resources are really a non-issue, it has been stated numerous times that hell has nearly endless amounts of precious minerals and metal, the only hurtle is the equipment to extract these resources, which I am sure that several Earth-based companies would be eager to supply.
Yes, but only on their own terms. Which means about the same as it does for a Third World country: you dig a lot of ore out of the ground, and most of it gets shipped away and never seen again. It is a rare and talented leader who manages to industrialize their country to the point where they can actually use the resources they extract.
As for the technical know-how to create weapons and machinery, you seem to be overlooking the fact that nearly every person who has ever lived is in hell, and that includes every gun manufacturer, every factory worker, every arms inventor from Ferguson to Kalashnikov. There is hardly any need to train people in anything more than assembly line work, which is like teaching a monkey how to eat a banana.
Point one:
In many cases, what is needed is modern industrial technology. As in "more recent than the Second World War." Often as in "more recent than disco." Stuff with computers, especially. And on that level of technology, only a very small minority of Hell residents are going to be all that useful without considerable retraining. John Browning may be in there somewhere, but assuming he's still suitable for his original profession... he's going to have to learn CAD/CAM software like all the rest of us, I'm afraid.

Point two:
If the Hell nations settle for older infrastructure, they can use proportionately more people... but they also get a lower-quality final product. Ever wonder why people weren't churning out automatic rifles in World War One? It's because the manufacturing technology wasn't quite up to it yet; use WWI-vintage factories and you're going to be limited to something like WWI-vintage weapons.

Even then, you do still need to import the machine tools, get them set up, build factories to run them in, power plants to drive the factories, roads to carry it all around on... it's not a trivial undertaking. Even with all the advantages Hell-citizens enjoy over ordinary mortals, it's going to take decades.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by spartasman »

It is indeed a rare and talented leader who manages to industrialize his country, and I do not believe you could name Theodore as anything BUT rare and talented.

I'm not talking about a state that needs to compete with Earth, I'm talking about a state that can compete with Rome, which does not have any modern technology except for what the H.E.A decides to give them. Anyway, the point is rather moot as I have decided to abandon the concept of a 'hell U.S.A' in favor of a more probable plot. I might introduce something similar to the concept near the end, but I have decided that the bulk of the story will revolve around something else. What that something else is I cant really say, as I have yet to develop the idea fully yet, but I should have a new chapter up shortly, along with revisions of the previous chapters.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Loates »

Simon_Jester wrote:
spartasman wrote:....Another is the one Edward points out: that the image of New Rome growing quickly is partly false. They are growing, but:
-Their rate of expansion is limited by the rate at which people die.
-Their access to modern industry is limited; they're building an industrial base literally from nothing, and without one they are not a credible competitor.
-They are completely dependent on major powers on Earth for their weapons, without which they cannot defend themselves (this ties into the industrial problem).

In a hundred years, New Rome may well be a serious competitor. But not soon.
The first point is not strictly true. The rate of expansion of New Rome is dependent on several factors, not all necessarly limiting:

1) The rate at which existing second-lifers join
2) The rate at which daemons join
3) The rate at which first-lifers decide to invest their savings in New Rome before they 'die'
4) The rate which the Human leadership on Earth and President Abigors leadership in Hell will allow it to grow

Please enough of the insults aimed at the author. Construtive criticism along the lines of "this needs to be rethought from scratch and perhaps a lot more research fist before posting" and a littler less of the "stop fucking writing" would get e better response I think. At least the author is maiking an effort, a worthy effort in my very 'eavy, very 'umble opinion.

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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Mayabird »

There hasn't been much insulting for some days now and Simon_Jester IS providing a lot of constructive criticism, detailed criticism (and before this people were discussing varying points of the setting). Who stuck sand up your prisoner's vagina?
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

spartasman wrote:It is indeed a rare and talented leader who manages to industrialize his country, and I do not believe you could name Theodore as anything BUT rare and talented.

I'm not talking about a state that needs to compete with Earth, I'm talking about a state that can compete with Rome, which does not have any modern technology except for what the H.E.A decides to give them. Anyway, the point is rather moot as I have decided to abandon the concept of a 'hell U.S.A' in favor of a more probable plot. I might introduce something similar to the concept near the end, but I have decided that the bulk of the story will revolve around something else. What that something else is I cant really say, as I have yet to develop the idea fully yet, but I should have a new chapter up shortly, along with revisions of the previous chapters.
Fair enough.

The "United States of Hell" is a viable concept, roughly comparable to the Russian states Stas Bush has written; the problem is simply that without very active US support it won't unfold fast enough for anything interesting to happen there before you run into the end of the story's timeline to date. After Stuart pushes things farther ahead in Lords of War, it might well work.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by spartasman »

I have updated the first chapter, cutting out the part with Gen. Lee completely. Thanks go to Stuart who helped correct a few errors. It's a bit short, but I hope to expand on the character and sub-plot in the next few chapters.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Corrections in points of detail and grammar follow:
spartasman wrote:
Chicago, Illinois. 7:45, January 3rd 2008
Why is this man drinking in a bar at 7:45 in the morning on a Thursday?
Henry Randolph considered himself to be a rational, reasonable man. In fact, he even felt that given the overall situation [comma] he was behaving beyond what could be reasonably expected for a twenty-four year old man. But despite all the reasoning he could conjure, he still felt very, very angry as he passed over the last beer voucher in his possession.
"Could be reasonably expected" might be better as "could reasonably be expected." However, this is a nitpick, and could easily be a matter of opinion. :mrgreen:
'At any other time in history' Randolph thought, 'the rationing of liquor would have been utterly inconceivable. Only during the time of prohibition has such a terror haunted the dreams of man'.
A question: Is Randolph right? Was alcohol not rationed during the World War(s)? Keep in mind that even if it was, Randolph might not know that, of course... good characters don't know everything, and usually don't even know everything the author knows. Especially stupid jackass characters, like Randolph.
'Truly', Henry thought grimly 'this is just the start of the decay of our society'. Randolph had been avidly, or at least as avidly as he could, pursuing a degree in social philosophy. Unfortunately, the U.S Army did not think that that was an important field, or at least important enough to sacrifice an able young man. They hadn't drafted him, not yet, but pulling a straight seven-hour shift at a local plant that made parts for Abrams tanks was no walk in the park.
Consider. If that sentence were written out without the interruption, it would be "Truly, this is just the start..." Now, when you break that up, it's worth remembering that punctuation normally goes inside quotation marks. Thus:

"Truly," Henry thought grimly, "this is just the start..."
'This damn war has changed too much, I can't even begin to imagine what the next generation is going to be like' he thought, taking a small sip from his last Coors. 'And the beer tastes like horse piss nowadays, I can't even get a fucking Samuel Adams' he thought bitterly.
Punctuation:

"This damn war has changed to much" and "I can't even begin to imagine..." are arguably separate clauses that should be joined by a semicolon, not a comma, since one does not directly lead to another. Or you could make them separate sentences. Also, there should be a comma at the end of "...going to be like" to lead into the next clause. Ideally, "...the beer tastes like horse piss nowadays" should be its own sentence, and there should be an exclamation mark at the end of "fucking Samuel Adams."

Also, at this point you've made it very clear that Randolph is a bitter and unhappy man. At a certain point, it becomes unnecessary to break up your sentences with "blah blah," Tom said swiftly, "blah blah" and stuff like that. So you can probably drop "he thought bitterly."
Fate had not shown kindly on Henry these last few months. Having finally made it to college, he had been two-and-a-half years into his schooling when the message had arrived. 'and now, now I'm just another piss-ant plebe in the eyes of the world'
1)Shown or shone?
2)This should probably not be hyphenated.
3)Since this was a very special message indeed, it should probably be capitalized, as befits a proper noun: The Message.
4)"And" should be capitalized, since it's at the beginning of a sentence.
Fate had never truly shown kindly on him. Having been an overweight under-achiever for most of his life [comma] he had only just began to turn his life around. He had quickly dropped nearly sixty pounds, and gained some of the muscle he had never had in the process after joining a Gym [Why is there a return here!?]
; of course, the thousands of dollars his parents had poured into personal trainers and dietitians, professionals who had anguished over helping him daily was a definite help. And in his last two years of High-school he had made straight A's, mostly due to the hired tutors who had done most of the work for him, but then again, that's why they were payed. The grades were good enough to get him a scholarship to go to to the University of Illinois period. It hadn't hurt that his parents happened to be benefactor of that particular college, but Henry was never one to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Now here, you have several problems, including one general one that I've struggled with myself recently. I'll explain that one at the bottom. As for the specific stuff, I address the underlined passages in order:

1)You just said that last paragraph. At the END of the paragraph, as ironic humor (pity me with my poor advantages!) it works; at the beginning? Not so much.
2)Began or begun?
3)Suggest "he'd never had." Also, this sentence might work better rearranged, as in: "He had quickly dropped nearly sixty pounds, gaining some muscle in the process, after joining a gym." It's more compact.
4)"Gym" is not capitalized in English, except (obviously) at the beginning of a sentence.
5)This is somewhat entertaining because of how his self-pity contrasts with the ridiculous load of resources and effort that went into trying to make a man of him. The problem is that the second half of the sentence is something of a run-on, and also... well, it ties into what I said about a general problem. More on that later.
6)High school is not capitalized in English, except for the beginnings of sentences. Nor is it hyphenated.
7)Payed or paid?
8)Benefactor or benefactors?

Aaanyway. Now for that general note: You're dropping too much exposition into too few big sentences. You just gave us this guy's entire life story in one big blob. There are a few ways to solve this:

A) If this is a recurring character, simply spread out the exposition. We do not need to know everything about him at once, and it should all become clear in time if we see enough of him. Yes, he is whiny, we know this. Yes, he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth; that was easy to figure out. No, he has no damn brains, we know that. Yes, he has an entitlement complex the size of Godzilla... and so on.

We can get all this a bit at a time from watching the man, rather than trying to read his biography.

B)At the very least, you can break it into two paragraphs: "He had lost a lot of weight, got straight A's his last two years, blah blah blah" for the first one, and "Of course, the X helped with the Y and the A helped with the B and so on" for the other.

C)Is this written from the character's viewpoint? What Randolph thinks of his own past is very different from reality, probably. Or are you trying to inform us of the objective reality? If so, how much do we really need to know?

Share background with the reader on a need to know basis. Do not tell them details they have no need for, and do not withhold details they need to understand the plot.
__________
'Except now that motherfucking horse has kicked me in the face'. Henry was almost done with the Coors, despite his best efforts to make it last longer. The man behind the bar was giving him sharp looks every few moments, almost trying to subconsciously tell Henry that once he had finished his last beer, he'd better get lost. Henry simply glared back with what he surmised to be a mean look.
Question: Why the sharp looks? This is more me being curious than anything else, but is he making himself that unwelcome? Did he forget to bathe? Does he have a history of harassing the regulars? Does he just have a magic "make everyone hate my fucking guts" field so powerful it not only breaks the fourth wall and affects the readers, but also affects other characters in the story like some perverse anti-Mary Sue effect?
'How the fuck does a place like this even stay open'? he questioned. Despite the rationing of food and other products, the local bars were still managing to get by quite well. 'I wouldn't be surprised if they were using the Prohibition-era tunnels to sneak in cheap booze, and that may very well explain the flavor of this shitty beer'.
1)"Questioned" implies that he said it aloud. Did he?
The point was moot, Henry reasoned. He doubted anyone else in Chicago had any decent beer left, and regardless, he was already finished with the bottle. Henry stood up, trying to judge that, despite the poor quality of the alcohol, he was alright to drive. 'it doesn't really matter either way does it' he thought, 'if i wreck the car and die, I'll just wake up in Hell'. 'of course comma' he went on, 'it would be a little awkward to explain to the foreman down at the plant about how he wouldn't be able to come into work tomorrow'.
I advise that you decide whether to call this person "Henry" or "Randolph" and stick to it. Different viewpoint characters may have different names for him, but his own name for himself should be consistent.

1)Consider what he's supposed to be thinking: "I doubt anyone has any decent beer left, and regardless, I'm finished with this bottle." This is either incredibly illogical, or unclearly written. Do you mean that this bottle is the last he intends to drink, that he can drink no more, or that he wants to drink no more?
2)"I" is capitalized in English.
3)Period goes inside the quotation marks.
4)"Of," being at the beginning of a sentence, is capitalized.
5)Why is Randolph thinking of himself in the third person?
Henry's spine ran cold at the thought of upsetting the man. Even though the man was in wheel chair, with no legs, he was still an intimidating person, and he and Henry often didn't see eye-to-eye. The first week on the job, the foreman had decided that Henry required a little 'attitude adjustment', which amounted to him shouting at him in front of the whole factory. Henry's face still burned with embarrassment and hatred from that incident.
This is an error-free paragraph, so far as I can tell.
Henry walked out towards his car, it wasn't anything too fancy, a 2001 model Chevy. Before the the war on Hell and Heaven, he had owned a 2002 Camaro, one of the last off the assembly line. But after all vehicle plants started to convert to produce the various weapons needed to fight the war, it had quickly became apparent that keeping such a high-end car would be unwise.
1)"Car" should be the end of a sentence. "It" should be the beginning of the next.
2)To the best of my knowledge, the Camaro was still in production in years after 2002. Or do you mean 2006 or 2007?
He turned the keys slowly, the car started with a sputter and then quickly died out. "aw fuck" he shouted, "what the fuck?". Henry looked at the various gauges in front of him and noticed that the gas meter had dropped below E, 'it wasn't there when I went in to the fucking bar, dammit'. Looking in the side view mirror, he noticed something wrong on the side of the car. "My life is not this bad" he cried out. Sure enough, the side of his car had several scratches and dents, all circling around the bent and pried open cover to the gasoline nozzle.
This strikes me as strange. On my car, the gas tank cover is not locked, and there is no need to pry it open. As far as I can tell, anyone can just grab it, pull it open, unscrew the cap, and stick in a siphon. Why would anyone need to pry open the cover to the tank on Henry's car? To leave convenient evidence that even a retarded jackass like him can find?

Also, the first "aw fuck" should probably be capitalized:

"...died out. "Aw, fuck," he shouted, "what the fuck?".
"shit...fuck, goddammit". The last curse was more of a reflexive reaction than a willed one. 'But it sure fills the description neatly' he thought to himself. Ever since the message, Henry had finally found the reason for all his bad luck; people not liking him, never getting any favors, his lack of luck with women. All of this was clear evidence to Henry that god was conspiring against him all along.
1)"Shit" should be capitalized.
2)The Message is normally a capital-M in Stuart's story; see above.
3)Classically, of course, "God" is capitalized. Even people who don't like God usually capitalize "God," because "God" refers to a singular entity. After the Message, the being Christians once called "God" becomes very unpopular, but would still be a proper noun: "God" or "Yahweh." After all, it's not like WWII newspapers went around talking about hitler and mussolini.
He reached into his car, lifting the small handle that popped open the trunk and walked around to the back of the car, pulling out a small 3-gallon gas can. It wasn't particularly good gas, he had siphoned it out of his neighbors lawnmower the other week, in case of emergencies. 'Its not like that stupid bastard was using it, his fucking yard is always over-grown period' he thought bitterly, loathing the fact that he had to share a neighborhood with such people.
1) His neighbor's lawnmower has a ridiculous huge-ass gas tank; I know mine doesn't hold three gallons. Or was the can anywhere near full? Also, three gallons is a pretty large volume; consider three one-gallon jugs of milk taped together.
2)I suggest that "gas" be the end of one sentence and "he" start another.
3)Its or it's?
4)I suggest that "it" be the end of one sentence and "his" start another.
5)"Overgrown" is not usually hyphenated, so far as I remember.
6)Again, you really have done enough of the "he thought bitterly." Yes, he's a bitter little bastard. We get it.
6)Pursuant to this, I suggest: "...always overgrown. He loathed the fact that he had to share..."
He quickly emptied the contents of the can into the gas tank, and proceeded to quickly toss the can back into the trunk. Henry eyed the still-bent cover with a suspicious eye, wondering if it would be dangerous with the gas tank exposed, but decided that there was nothing he could do about it at the moment. He quickly scooted himself back into the drivers seat, and restarted the car. As Henry pulled out of the parking spot, he realized that he had lost his buzz.
1&2) It is not advisable to use the same adverb twice in the same sentence, especially when you use a long and unnecessary structure to build a place for it the second time. Try

"He quickly emptied the contents of the can into the gas tank, and tossed it back into the trunk."

3)Again, why is the cover bent? Is this something about Chevies that I just don't know, that they have covers which must be damaged to allow a thief access to the gas tank? Perhaps this is foreshadowing... but foreshadowing doesn't work unless it makes sense in advance.
4)Drivers or driver's?
5)I suggest removing the comma. When there are only two actions described in a sentence, linked by an "and," no comma is necessary. Thus:

"Danny lit the fuse and ran away,"
not
"Danny lit the fuse, and ran away."

...

Gaspgaspgasp.

OK. Maybe I'll do more later.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Edward Yee »

Loates wrote:4) The rate which the Human leadership on Earth and President Abigors leadership in Hell will allow it to grow
This has been answered in story -- the US Army at least as of the end of Armageddon was fine with New Rome for keeping order instead of forcing them to do the job, but that's turned around by chapter 51 of Pantheocide.
spartasman wrote:It is indeed a rare and talented leader who manages to industrialize his country, and I do not believe you could name Theodore as anything BUT rare and talented.
But can you name him still sane, much less qualified enough (on a technical level) to take anything approaching the needs of a "present-day" (in-universe) Hell state? Caesar was fortunate to have gotten onboard quickly with the PFLH and pulled rank on the UK force (living) commander, then parlayed that into his subsequent state.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well... it's within the bounds of plausibility, I think. But then, I'm less committed to the "the dead are dead weight" meme than some of the other readers of The Salvation War (or, I suspect, the author). I respect the author's reason for not folding the Hell-dead into the story more heavily, and find his justifications for doing so to be reasonable, of course...

But to take an example: we've got a competent WWII general from Stas's story who's very much on the ball, for instance.

Granted, he's been dead for forty years and not eighty. Granted that Voroshilov was presumably a good communist, and therefore an atheist, whereas TR would likely be far more disturbed to wind up in Hell. But given the caliber of the man, I would not be shocked to learn that he emerged from the Pit in command of his faculties. I'd be impressed... but that would be far from the first time I've been impressed to learn about something Roosevelt did.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Loates »

Mayabird wrote:There hasn't been much insulting for some days now and Simon_Jester IS providing a lot of constructive criticism, detailed criticism (and before this people were discussing varying points of the setting). Who stuck sand up your prisoner's vagina?
With that sort of reply, you. Is it possible for you to be any more abusive than you are being now? I merely pointed out that this author has received a lot of less-than-polite criticism, none of which in my opinion, is deserved in the offensive manner in in which it has been delivered.

Now you post this last question? What does that say about your level of tolerence?

Andy L
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, in case you haven't noticed, you're not the author. You're complaining about stuff that happened days ago, stuff that has little or no resemblance to what's happening now, stuff that everyone else has moved on from.

You're being hypersensitive. And, yes, Mayabird said that rudely. The difference between "rude" and "intolerant" is something that you can get an enormous amount of data by watching people talk around here...

Anyway. You may not have seen the first, unedited version of spartasman's original chapter, but it was... really quite bad. There were a lot more grammatical errors (yes, more than the ones I detailed above), the characterization wasn't working as well; it was a mess. It needed a lot of work. To the point where it read like something well below the level of what we normally see here, well below even a draft of what we normally see here. That was a big reason why the criticism popped up: we've got people here who could (or do) credibly write their own novels, who manage to post thousand word segments with zero errors of spelling or grammar, and people have gotten used to that. When something that, by those standards, is well below par crops up... someone's probably going to say it's a pile of junk.
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Re: Walk softly...

Post by spartasman »

well... umm... thank you?
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first.
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Simon_Jester
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Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Walk softly...

Post by Simon_Jester »

spartasman wrote:well... umm... thank you?
I'm sorry if my most recent post offended you. I hope my previous post helped you, though I understand it must look... Ouch. It would not look good to me if it were directed at me. Sorry.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
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spartasman
Padawan Learner
Posts: 314
Joined: 2010-02-16 09:39pm
Location: Parachuting with murderers into the Hollywood Hills

Re: Walk softly...

Post by spartasman »

It's quite alright. I have updated the first chapter according to your suggestions, and I thank you for the help. I am not a very good writer, and I can accept that. But I do hope to get the story across without ruining it through bad writing. I don't know when I'll get around to chapter three, most likely I'll write it during the next few days and release it on Sunday.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first.
- Samuel Clemens
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