Starcraft II Beta Live!

[Covenant]

Starcraft Ghost? What the hell happened there? They could also release a squad based Starcraft game, even a Diablo-esque one. But hey, it's just THE game, and we're stuck with the same gameplay.

You should be able to mod some of this in using the editor if the hype from Blizzard is to be believed. That's basically the only reason I'll be buying this game anyway.

Meeeeh... the whole "Use Map Setting" thing is just a hack. For a game like Half-Life you can imagine buying it just for the eventual mods, while odd--but the issues with SC2 are basically game engine hardcode issues. Sure you can make a mod to turn it into a small squad-based game, or a game where you control one dude and work with allies to clear out a map full of Zerg, but a full price game to play something that you can even mod Unreal Tournament to do?

[Stark]

I really don't get why major AAA releases get away with the whole 'oh lol mod it in' thing, while lower-budget or more niche games don't. People rail about CA games (for instance) for all the omissions and errors; do we really hold Blizzard to a lower standard?

Of course once we appreciate that Blizzard doesn't really care about this minor sideline beside their licence to print money and are only doing it to corner the Korean market, everything is clear. That doesn't mean we need to make excuses.

PS I hated Ground Control 2. A giant step back towards Warcraft from Ground Control.

Actually can I propose a rule of RTS games? If your RTS has a dune buggy type vehicle, it sucks. Act of War, Dune 2, Ground Control 2... I can't think of a game with an open, unarmoured fast 'scout car' (generally with AA capability or deployables) that isn't shit.

[Uraniun235]

I really don't get why major AAA releases get away with the whole 'oh lol mod it in' thing, while lower-budget or more niche games don't.

This really aggravated me with Bridge Commander. The Klingon Academy team at Interplay had to fight their way through a busted-ass old engine with no source code available and a bunch of incestuously nepotistic executives, and they still managed to push out a game with dozens of relatively well-detailed ships and several different weapon types.

Totally Games had none of those things working against them, yet still shoved out a short-ass campaign and just over a dozen ships and pretty much said "well the fans can mod in whatever extra ships they want". And of course their game had a terrible tendency to shit its pants when faced with half the mods put out for it.

[Oskuro]

PS I hated Ground Control 2. A giant step back towards Warcraft from Ground Control.

Actually can I propose a rule of RTS games? If your RTS has a dune buggy type vehicle, it sucks. Act of War, Dune 2, Ground Control 2... I can't think of a game with an open, unarmoured fast 'scout car' (generally with AA capability or deployables) that isn't shit.

I actually never played GC 1, should get around to checking it out, so my perception of the game (being my first contact with WiC-style gameplay) might be skewed.

And I disagree with your dune buggy rule. Dune 2 had dune tricycles (seriously, Dune 2 gets a pass for being so primitive cavemen would call it dated)


As for modding, I'm all for modding communities, but they have disadvantages. Just look at the jumbled mess that WC3 custom maps is, there are some great ones, but most are shit, and that's not counting all the maps someone has custom made so they can win.
I might be echoing Yatzhee here (and others), but professional game developers are professional for a reason (hint: we pay them), so they get no extra points by claiming features their audience is asking for can be modded in.

[Stark]

Ground Control is basically 90s WiC without the competitive focus. Some things (like the limited but no cooldown special abilities) are really awesome. Ground Control 2 is massively conventional by comparison.

And ok if we rule out Dune 2 for being old maybe any RTS with a ground vehicle small with a roll-cage. The Dune ones were fully enclosed (and the game didn't try to encourage you to use them by making them scouts/AA/whatev they were just early-game tanks).

[adam_grif]

Act of War,

FFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffff.

I loved that game. It had its fair share of problems but it did its own unique thing in so many ways that I'm forced to respect it. PoW system was brilliant, urban combat was refreshing, etc. I can't remember the last time I saw an RTS game where infantry units could raid buildings from the ground and clear it out from the inside, as opposed to the enemy units just setting up shop and the building instantly turning into a fortress that you have to get specialized units to clear out by shooting it from a distance.

[Stark]

You need to learn that things you like can also suck. I like AoW too (nobody else does, lol) but it's a bad game and the expansion is worse. It's stuck in an unfortunate middle ground between micro-heavy resourcing silliness and tactical-heavy combat. The MP is especially bad due to the micro of setting up your force (buying upgrades per-unit = retarded).

Just because it lets you upgrade 'drop satellites on people' to 'drop satellites FULL OF EBOLA on people' doesn't mean it isn't broken and horrible.

[Nephtys]

I really don't get why major AAA releases get away with the whole 'oh lol mod it in' thing, while lower-budget or more niche games don't. People rail about CA games (for instance) for all the omissions and errors; do we really hold Blizzard to a lower standard?

I think specialist gamers are more discerning in general. We hate stupid shit like Red Alert 3's entire 'click a button to use your AA gun! OOPS, all your AA guys died to aircraft attack because you didn't click the switch to AA gun button!', while idiots eat that stuff up. CA has a history of issues, but their games are not nearly as mainstream. As an example, can you imagine the backlash if Homeworld 3 came out suddenly, and it was a sucky Empire at War knockoff? I'd go batshit at it. While if Red Alert 4 comes out and is a sucky Warcraft 2 knockoff, idiot fans would love it without question.

Of course once we appreciate that Blizzard doesn't really care about this minor sideline beside their licence to print money and are only doing it to corner the Korean market, everything is clear. That doesn't mean we need to make excuses.

Blizzard is a company not about selling a product of late. It's about selling a business model. Perpetual income, minimal risk.

Actually can I propose a rule of RTS games? If your RTS has a dune buggy type vehicle, it sucks. Act of War, Dune 2, Ground Control 2... I can't think of a game with an open, unarmoured fast 'scout car' (generally with AA capability or deployables) that isn't shit.

Fair enough, though I thought the scout car vehicles (aside from the cruddy jeep) were pretty good in CoH. The PE Scout car especially could really run down infantry, and that weird mini-track british thing was your only early game AT option.

I suppose the Humvees in C&C generals were absurdly good. I mean, it's a little fast car armed with 1 built in rocket (or a bloody laser), a machine gun, and 5 guys hanging out windows firing rockets or sniper rifles.

[Oskuro]

Let's be clear, Dune 2 Quads and Trikes sucked big time, but so did most units (and I love the game despite its flaws). It can be easily forgiven because, frankly, it was almost the first of its kind, so there wasn't much out there to compare to.

Now, about the buggy rule, bad news for Starcraft 2 then:

[Stark]

That's a good point, I'm not hugely familiar with CoH. But Humvees don't count; WiC has them too but they're not 'whee megafast scout cars of light warfare extravagance' they're just light vehicles. Maybe I should have used them in CnC3 .

[Serafina]

Hey, scouts are fine - IF THEY ARE BLOODY SCOUTS.

Seriously, and attempt to make scout-vehicles combat units is because most games don't have an intelligence-system that is worth shit.
And instead of making it an screening-vehicle against infantry, they have to go for some other role, because infantry also sucks due to the lack of cover or LOS-limitation for tanks - which means that you don't NEED screening.

[Covenant]

Blizzard is a company not about selling a product of late. It's about selling a business model. Perpetual income, minimal risk.

Especially when you consider that units like the Lurker, a key zerg unit from Brood War, was indeed built and ready to go... but is now set back to 'scrapped.' It looks to me like they're actually slicing out content that was meant to be in this one just to pad out the expansions. There's also Dark Archons, Medics, Firebats, and so forth to add back in. Ugh.

Just like how a professional company doesn't get and excuse for putting out a "fix it yourself" or "add it yourself" product, they also don't get an excuse for "oh hey and by the way, we're going to sell one game to you three times."

I swear they've just padded out these unit lists for that purpose. I'm not looking for ways to dislike this game--I really do like Blizzard's products in general and I'm still looking forwards to Diablo 3 (assuming it doesn't end up ignoring the past 10 years of advances on that genre as well) but the whole "neverending payment scheme" model just does not interest me.

[Stark]

Yeah, it's the combination of 'scout' with 'cheap' with 'early game' with 'has some essential element for rock-paper-scissors' that makes it shit, like AoW's stinger dune buggies of bullshit. I guess that's why WiC avoids it, because there is no 'early game'.

[Stark]

I swear they've just padded out these unit lists for that purpose. I'm not looking for ways to dislike this game--I really do like Blizzard's products in general and I'm still looking forwards to Diablo 3 (assuming it doesn't end up ignoring the past 10 years of advances on that genre as well) but the whole "neverending payment scheme" model just does not interest me.

On the other hand, given the strong community of literal retards, it's brilliant. There are people who will seriously by SC2 three times to get the 'whole story'.

[Teleros]

I suppose the Humvees in C&C generals were absurdly good. I mean, it's a little fast car armed with 1 built in rocket (or a bloody laser), a machine gun, and 5 guys hanging out windows firing rockets or sniper rifles.

No, it was:
1. Laser or machinegun
2. Anti-tank TOW missile upgrade
3. One of three UAVs (machine gun / repair drone, anti-tank missiles, or stealth-detecting unarmed one)
4. The five guys able to fire out
5. Fast
6. Cheap
7. Low-tech

Let's be clear, Dune 2 Quads and Trikes sucked big time, but so did most units (and I love the game despite its flaws). It can be easily forgiven because, frankly, it was almost the first of its kind, so there wasn't much out there to compare to.

Now, about the buggy rule, bad news for Starcraft 2 then:

At least it's got a flamethrower rather than AA weaponry . Because short-ranged flamethrowers on lightly armoured vehicles... yeah that makes sense .
*Waits to mod Firebats back into the default game*

[adam_grif]

You need to learn that things you like can also suck.

Impossible! It cannot be!

I like AoW too (nobody else does, lol) but it's a bad game and the expansion is worse. It's stuck in an unfortunate middle ground between micro-heavy resourcing silliness and tactical-heavy combat. The MP is especially bad due to the micro of setting up your force (buying upgrades per-unit = retarded).

Just because it lets you upgrade 'drop satellites on people' to 'drop satellites FULL OF EBOLA on people' doesn't mean it isn't broken and horrible.

But that's where you're wrong. Dropping satellites full of ebola on people makes it incredibly awesome. I can't comment on game balance or design issues because I haven't played it since like 2006 and don't really remember those details all too well, but the game certianly wasn't only liked by us:

http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/922366-a ... index.html

The expansion got critically panned, however.

[TheKwas]

I really don't get why major AAA releases get away with the whole 'oh lol mod it in' thing, while lower-budget or more niche games don't.

These games have the dedicated communities that will actually produce great mods?

Actually can I propose a rule of RTS games? If your RTS has a dune buggy type vehicle, it sucks. Act of War, Dune 2, Ground Control 2... I can't think of a game with an open, unarmoured fast 'scout car' (generally with AA capability or deployables) that isn't shit.

Does the Vulture in SC1 count? It's basically a dune buggy that floats.

[[R_H]]

Act of War,

FFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffff.

I loved that game. It had its fair share of problems but it did its own unique thing in so many ways that I'm forced to respect it. PoW system was brilliant, urban combat was refreshing, etc. I can't remember the last time I saw an RTS game where infantry units could raid buildings from the ground and clear it out from the inside, as opposed to the enemy units just setting up shop and the building instantly turning into a fortress that you have to get specialized units to clear out by shooting it from a distance.

Have you tried Joint Task Force? It's a quite well done RTS. I especially like that you buy individual units, but can equip them with different weapons, like grenades or AT rockets. The vehicles also have ammo, enemy vehicles can be captured and used by your side and it's possible to button up.

Fair enough, though I thought the scout car vehicles (aside from the cruddy jeep) were pretty good in CoH. The PE Scout car especially could really run down infantry, and that weird mini-track british thing was your only early game AT option.

The M8 Greyhound is fairly good once you get the armoured skirts and the raid ability for them. 2 or 3 of them can easily take out a StuG, because they can move faster than the StuG can traverse. Head-on they don't stand a chance.

[Master of Ossus]

My early observations of SC2 Beta matches:

I don't understand why they're so obsessed with having units that are designed to counter low-tier, basic units (like the marine, or zerglings). These units are not supposed to have specific counter--they're meant to be marginally effective against many things--a stop-gap measure until you develop higher-tier units, or else upgrade the basic units considerably.

I also don't like the way that the games I've seen consist of "build lots of a single type of unit--with little or no unit diversity--and then throw it against your opponent. It'll do lots of damage. Then your opponent will come back with a horde of units (all of the same type or maybe two types--if they're Protoss) that are basically just a hard-counter to your horde and the pendulum swings back. Starcraft was, originally, successful and interesting because the builds that people had to use were meant to be generally balanced, with units that worked together to make each other more effective, and because the maps were big enough and the tech/production progression slow enough that there was time to scout your opponent's strategy, if you were good/lucky, and develop appropriate counters. The maps in SC2 all "feel" small because the development in unit tech is so fast that players rarely have time to scout their opponents' armies before the horde of mid-level (or even high-tier) units are already knocking out an expansion having wiped out whatever was in the field and nearby. Maybe it's just an issue that'll go away when better maps come out, but I'm decidedly unimpressed with the gameplay I'm seeing out of the beta. Even with the Blizzard announcers calling the action, you can tell that they're not able to anticipate what the players are going to do before the players are actually implementing their offensive strategies. And the few strategies they're able to anticipate (e.g., "He's trying to warp in some units behind the other guy's defenses) seem largely ineffective because they take too long, as compared to the "giant mass of banelings/phoenixes/immortals/hellions." (Possibly that's a statement that if it takes long enough that an omniscient observer who can see the whole map can spot it and describe it, it's taking too long to be effective).

As for what they've added: so far the only thing they seem to be bragging about (besides the new units--most of which I think are crap) are the watchtowers and the smoke screens. Both of those are utter gimmicks. It's like having a persistent swarm or d-matrix on the map as part of the actual game. I can see how some map-makers will appreciate them and might use them creatively for a couple of maps here and there, but come on. There has to be more than that to add to the original game. Oh, and they have those "high-yield" resource areas--granted, that's a big step up over the original game and it likely opens up the game to new strategies, but the maps that they have are utterly incapable of showing that that these are an important addition: I have never seen the high-yield expansions come into play, except after the game is completely over (so they're not just the clinching blow, either). In addition, the original often offered things like "double gas" expansions on maps that played largely the same role, but were also a bit more interesting in that they challenged players build timing, as well. The current maps all make the high-yield expansions too vulnerable except if you already have total map control (in which case you win, anyway). There are so few paths across the map (probably to make the watchtowers and smokescreens seem remotely useful), so your opponent cannot help but notice it if you try to hide an expansion not because they notice your army seems too weak or that you're missing resources, but because they can't help but walk through your high-yield expansion while going for your main. The back-and-forth nature of "horde kills until hard-countered" combat plays into this, too, by making it virtually impossible to contain an opponent--a problem that's only exacerbated by the destructible rocks "feature" that appears in practically every map even though they already had neutral buildings in the original SC which played precisely the same role but were more intelligently implemented by modern maps.

In short: I'm unimpressed by what I see. I see some potential with some of the added features, but much, much better maps will have to be created to bring them into play, and what little is added to the original doesn't remotely equal a decade's worth of thinking about improvements and new features to bring into the SC universe. I think it's sad that SC is still better than the new RTS games that are coming out now (e.g., Dawn of War 2). It's pathetic that SC is just as good in many ways as SC2, and in the crucial maps dimension (which is what brings the original's gameplay to life) is much better. Most damningly, even if all of these gameplay features were really brought out by better maps, I can't see that the gameplay will be significantly better or deeper than the original. It might be marginally better and more interesting, but certainly not game-changing. And not worth $50, let alone $150.

[adam_grif]

The M8 Greyhound is fairly good once you get the armoured skirts and the raid ability for them. 2 or 3 of them can easily take out a StuG, because they can move faster than the StuG can traverse. Head-on they don't stand a chance.

Fairly good? The thing is a gamewinning beast. If it hits the field around the 8 minute mark, it's gg Germans, unless they anticipated the rush and put specific countermeasures in place. As soon as it comes out of the Motor Pool, you get skirts and head off for the enemy base. Once inside, plant mines where the enemy units get cranked out (each building has one spot where units appear). M8 mines will destroy the engine of a StuG 9 times out of 10, insta-kill a PaK and most other things.

Then it just kind of drives around blowing up infantry and firing on their production structures in its down time from the pioneer slaughtering until the second M8 shows up, at which point it finishes the Bunkers off to let the infantry in.

By this point they have given up map control, including VPs, and will probably get destroyed in short order. If they stop the rush, the M8's aren't very useful for late game, but in their moment of glory they have won many a game for the Americans.

[Teleros]

Ctrl-Alt-Delete on the SC2 beta:

http://www.cad-comic.com/comics/cad/20100224.jpg

[Stark]

These games have the dedicated communities that will actually produce great mods?

Dude, Mount and Blade has game-tripling mods (possibly dozens) and it's a pathetic niche game. Sword of the Stars got game-fixing mods. Sins of a Solar Empire got ... well lets be honest they didn't fix the game; but massive total conversions. Almost every game around that isn't locked down gets piles of mods, it's really not anything to do with sales or original budget.

[The Jester]

I have a great idea for a game that requires MAXIMUM SKILL. In fact, this will be the most elite, competitive, SKILLFUL game ever.

Interestingly enough, if you try to argue this, you'll find that hardcore Starcraft fans don't want additional tedium. They just want the same tedium to remain and not have their worthless "skill" become obsolete. In essence, it's not about having a game being a hardcore test of "skill", it's purely a reflex to defend the fact that they've wasted so many hours perfecting talents which have no meaning outside competitive Starcraft. This is where the popularity of Starcraft and the fact that it's been around for so long has worked against RTS developments. This is the status quo, and since it's been this way for quite some time, people have become entrenched into this sort of thinking.

- You are not allowed to queue up production at multiple factories. Skilled commanders will make do clicking the bottom bar every ten seconds.

Actually, thinking about it, there is one tiny design decision that was made for Starcraft which has had a gigantic impact on how the game is played now: you pay for units on order rather than on production. That is, the second you add a unit to a building queue, its cost is immediately deducted from your available resources (except for Zerg who have no queues). If the cost of a unit was only deducted when production of that unit actually began, the game would be significantly different. Why? Since units are charged the second they enter the production queue, then it's optimal to never have any units queued apart from workers (since there's only one worker production facility per resource site). Since production queues are worthless, then you need to periodically go back a produce a round of units which can be incredibly frequent when building cheap units. If this were not so, Terran and Protoss (especially Terran) would be far easier to play since you wouldn't need to go back to base anywhere near as frequently. Even if you had to click every production building individually and enqueue each unit, it would still be a massive improvement over the current system.

If memory serves, pay on order was something that was implemented in the original Warcraft and yet, this small difference has such a massive impact since it's typically the players who have mastered periodically clicking every building and enqueuing one more unit are the ones that perform best. With a diminished role of such a "skill" the game would be very different along with the expectations of the fans. It's such a far reaching effect for a design decision made for a game over 16 years ago when the ramifications of such a decision were completely unknown to those that implemented it. I guessing it was probably done because the developers didn't want to deal with the possibility that two different production queues could make a simultaneous demand for a resource that lacked supply to satisfy both queues. Yet this one small decision for simplicity in programming has had a massive impact in how future games are played in my opinion.

Pathfinding will be perfected so that instead of shuffling back and forth when blocked by a friendly trooper or obstacle, they will stand still and do nothing instead.

Actually, this is one area where I'll defend Blizzard. They have done a good job in improving path-finding in SC2; workers efficiently select the correct mineral patch to mine from, mélée units effectively surround their opponents in combat. The sad thing is that it very clearly illustrates the glaring weakness of how combat works in SC and SC2 since it mostly just devolves into mashing your blob into your opponent's blob and hoping that blob size and composition are on your side. But since the improved path-finding isn't going anywhere, there is some hope that it will inevitably lead to gameplay changes that reward sharp thinking.

[Oskuro]

Does the Vulture in SC1 count? It's basically a dune buggy that floats.

It's a hoverbike! Learn the difference!
(ever told you how I modded the Vulture into BF1942? )


Now, about the beta, haven't played it, but aren't the maps restricted to low-player games? Like 1v1 & 2v2? Maybe upon release there'll be properly big maps (that is, a Hunters remake) that allow for more diverse gameplay. On the other hand, rushing is to Starcraft like grinding is to WoW, doubtful they'll take it away.

[Darksider]

Quick question for anyone who's seen the Beta matches, does it look like Blizzard has done anything to increase the amount of resources you can take in? One of the things I always hated about the original starcraft (and most older RTS games in general) is that it takes fucking forever to gain resources and build anything. You need to have like fifteen workers gathering minerals just to have a viable economy, and by the time you build up a strike force, all your minerals are gone, so if you fuck up you can't build another one. It was so annoying that I basically ended up using the resource gain and fast-build cheats on every campaign map. This is something that RTS' have really improved upon over the past few years. In C&C 3, when you mine tiberium, it grows back at a reasonable rate, so you don't have to worry about running out. DOW has you capture points for unlimited resources. Has blizzard attempted to improve their resource collection model in any way? If there's anything I despise about playing an RTS, it's worrying that I might run out of resources before I finish building up my forces.