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Depends on the nature of those anti-starship weapons. If they're unable to shoot down (many of?) the smaller transports from your mothership (which could be out of range at this point), they may wait with them until orbital support is requested, then attack when ships move in to provide said support.

Obviously. Have there been any planet based anti-starship weaponry that are a serious threat to starships and are also difficult to detect and thus target? The one time I recall the Enterprise being attacked by surface batteries was in 'A Taste for Armageddon' (yeah yeah I know sound waves don't travel in outer space). Enterprise just increased its orbital distance until it was out of the surface batteries range.

I know this thread is largely speculative. But how much is conjecture, and how much is invention? Any competent invasion force would try to have all its bases covered. If there are such weapon platforms that can seriously threaten a starship, they would be taken out first - hence the whole idea that you get space supremacy before the invasion commences.

It also depends on your opponent. Try a stunt like 'keep the anti-starship weapon hidden so you can hit the klingon troop ship when they're coming in to land' and the klingon fleet commander might go 'fuck it, let's bombard the fuckers with neutron radiation - that'll fix their little red wagon'.

Destructionator XIII wrote:In the TNG two parter "Gambit" (where Picard goes undercover to catch some pirates), there was a starbase said to have ground deflector shields and phaser banks, but the Enterprise figured it wouldn't last long against a serious attacker. I figure it was probably there just to buy some more time until a rescure starship arrives.

They didn't say how hard it was to detect though. The Enterprise crew knew they were there from computer documents.

The mercenaries knew about it, too, and even with their dinky starship they expected to defeat it (although Picard made it easier with some shield-frequency trickery that blew the shield quickly).

Stofsk wrote:Obviously. Have there been any planet based anti-starship weaponry that are a serious threat to starships and are also difficult to detect and thus target? The one time I recall the Enterprise being attacked by surface batteries was in 'A Taste for Armageddon' (yeah yeah I know sound waves don't travel in outer space). Enterprise just increased its orbital distance until it was out of the surface batteries range.

You on the first page wrote:This is a conceptual thread Batman, not a canon one.

Yeah

I know this thread is largely speculative. But how much is conjecture, and how much is invention? Any competent invasion force would try to have all its bases covered. If there are such weapon platforms that can seriously threaten a starship, they would be taken out first - hence the whole idea that you get space supremacy before the invasion commences.

How? The AAA would be pointed away from the planet, to get to them you have to go towards the planet, you'd have to deliberately put yourself in the line of fire and using natural formations you can even make sure that preemptive strikes are negligably effective.

It also depends on your opponent. Try a stunt like 'keep the anti-starship weapon hidden so you can hit the klingon troop ship when they're coming in to land' and the klingon fleet commander might go 'fuck it, let's bombard the fuckers with neutron radiation - that'll fix their little red wagon'.

[/quote][/quote] How are they going to do that if the AAA can hit them from outside the range of their engine wash?

What AAA are you talking about?

Stofsk wrote:What AAA are you talking about?

Anti-air or anti-orbital artillery, the theoretical phaser cannons for use against orbital and stellar attacks.

General Schatten wrote:

Stofsk wrote:What AAA are you talking about?

Anti-air or anti-orbital artillery, the theoretical phaser cannons for use against orbital and stellar attacks.

And why wouldn't they be destroyed before you launch an invasion? And why/how would they have a greater range than phasers or photorps on starships?

Stofsk wrote:And why wouldn't they be destroyed before you launch an invasion?

Lack of intel on them?

And why/how would they have a greater range than phasers or photorps on starships?

One of the handy things about planets is that you've got a lot more room to build on compared to most starships, which means you can fit much more powerful weapons / shields / whatever on them. Assuming the tech you're using can be scaled up like that of course.

This. Classically, fixed artillery is going to be larger and more powerful than what can be mounted on a mobile platform (compare the ion cannon on Hoth in Star Wars to the energy weapons used by Rebel warships, in terms of effect). Its disadvantage is that it can't dodge; in space combat that means it can be engaged from outside its own effective range, because I can stay far enough away to evade even lightspeed weapons while still being able to predict the fixed gun's position and keep firing on it.

Simon_Jester wrote:Its disadvantage is that it can't dodge; in space combat that means it can be engaged from outside its own effective range, because I can stay far enough away to evade even lightspeed weapons while still being able to predict the fixed gun's position and keep firing on it.

The counter to this is that a planet should by all rights have a more powerful EWS than any single class of starship could conceivably operate. Power generation capabilities of a planetary defense system would also greatly exceed that of a starship, this would tie in with theater level shields at the least which could casually deflect phaser blasts that would typically be a cause for concern for another starship. This would require the starship to fire photon or quantum munitions at the planet to overcome shielding, which due to the much more powerful EWS would be intercepted either by the phaser artillery itself or antitorpedo interceptors launchers. This in turn would require the starship to enter, at minimum, into the phaser artillery systems effective range in order to get a shot off before intercept has a chance to occur. Even if we assume MAD for the the artillery system (which I would think is a generous assumption on my part, given Trek starships can survive more than a handful of photon/quantam torpedoes before being destroyed and the theater shields would be substantially more powerful, yes?) is going to be much cheaper to replace because you don't need a moderate towns worth of people to operate it and it doesn't need all the special materials and equipment the starship would.

Ideally. Though... I dunno. If nothing else they can just fire the torpedoes blind at the location they expect the target to be at; electronic warfare only does so much good when there is absolutely no question of where you are physically.

Simon_Jester wrote:Ideally. Though... I dunno. If nothing else they can just fire the torpedoes blind at the location they expect the target to be at; electronic warfare only does so much good when there is absolutely no question of where you are physically.

We can detect and intercept missiles now, kindly explain to me why Trek wouldn't be able to do just as well if not better?

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

As to the ECM issue, the use of high energy particles (like your examples), certain metal like in "Silicon Avatar," and even components of their own ships like in "Hero Worship" interfere with Trek communications. It's a known weakness of their technology and one they apparently exploit for some reason considering their own ships block their communication abilities. It's possible that they do have communications technology that is less able to be interfered with or that this, possibly, design based weakness can be corrected. However, IIRC all of those examples dealt with disruption of communications between planetside individuals and the ship, what about communications between individuals on the same planet? I used the site's Canon database to look up examples and couldn't find one where communications between people on a planet were interrupted. I think in "Insurrection" there was something regarding blocking communication between people on a planet but I'm not 100%.

SapphireFox wrote:

Well the United States Army hopes you're wrong about that. All of their future infantry plans focus heavily on further networking infantry in the field to each other and command.

I cant speak for the US army but I don't think that there network connects their higher brain functions, which is my only other issue with this network.

You would be right there. Still, the connections enable the sharing of information allowing the drones to function as a far more cohesive unit than would be possible otherwise. If one of them goes down or if they all lose connections it doesn't nullify their ability to function, just their effectiveness as a group. There is no real "hive mind" action going on, although the computer core would admittedly be functioning in a similar role as the Commander of the forces.

avatarxprime wrote:. Since intelligence is the issue in Federation robotics, have them all function as networked drones tied to a starship level computer core. The core (by virtue of the holodeck) has proven itself more than capable of running sufficiently intelligent AI to function as soldiers and contains its own power supply.

According to your statement you NEED the core to actually RUN the programs that drive the robo-soldiers, if it were easy to run without the core you wouldn't need it at all.

I will admit that my initial statement was hardly as clear as would be preferred in regard to the purpose of everything. The core is there for running error checking, coordinating movements, directing troop actions, interfacing with Starfleet command personnel and in general ensuring a smooth operational experience. It needs to be able to run all the AI that are in the field to be able to compare them to their defaults to ensure none of them are developing beyond their programs like the Hirogen's holo-prey did. This does not preclude the fact that the drones themselves will be running their own programs. However, it seems imperative to prevent any one instance of the program from running too long or experiencing too much beyond the confines of their program as this seems to result in the program gaining sentience and runs the risk of creating another Moriarty. Modified copies of the Doctor's Emergency Command Hologram program would probably be the only program allowed to develop sentience.

As far as storage goes, the Doctor's program is capable of being stored in a tricorder size package (VOY:Living Witness). For individual processing ability I can't think of an example off the top of my head that deals with that level of intelligence in a compact package. The closest I can think of is the Exocomp, but it's level of intelligence is suspect, however it was considered to have a great deal of processing power. Both of those would point to having sufficient technology to run a holo-character level AI in a fairly small package. There is also the example of small level positronic processing technology used in DS9 by Dr. Bashir (sorry, don't remember the episode name) to replace portions of an individual's brain. Now that individual was being driven slowly insane, but that's likely due to conflict between the positronic implant and the individual's organic brain. A wholely artificial construct would most likely not experience similar effects.

I'm sure someone will say something, but remember that the Doctor had to prove he had gone beyond his programming and had become "a real boy" to get his rights, similarly for Data. As far as Data and Picard go, they probably won't have that much of a problem with it from the viewpoint of using holo-characters in android bodies, but rather the idea of sending wave after wave of killing machine at enemies given their interactions with holo-characters who aren't Moriarty.

I think we've come to the point of agreement on this issue, some grumbling from some quarters but the army of "mindless" and/or "soulless" death machines would probably disturb the average feddie citizen.

Agreed, but mostly because the Federation is not the kind to run an army of kill-bots. This seems like a far more Romulan or Cardassian idea in that sense.

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

Meh, no problem.

As to the ECM issue, the use of high energy particles (like your examples), certain metal like in "Silicon Avatar," and even components of their own ships like in "Hero Worship" interfere with Trek communications. It's a known weakness of their technology and one they apparently exploit for some reason considering their own ships block their communication abilities. It's possible that they do have communications technology that is less able to be interfered with or that this, possibly, design based weakness can be corrected. However, IIRC all of those examples dealt with disruption of communications between planetside individuals and the ship, what about communications between individuals on the same planet? I used the site's Canon database to look up examples and couldn't find one where communications between people on a planet were interrupted. I think in "Insurrection" there was something regarding blocking communication between people on a planet but I'm not 100%.

Whether it is a weakness that comes from a physical source or not is irrelevant it still exists and needs to be compensated for in order to have a functioning battlefield network. Your "kill-bots" still need the network in order to function properly. If they have the technology that is less able to be interfered with then why haven't we seen or heard about it in any of the shows or movies? I believe you maybe right about insurrection. (although I'm probably going to have to watch my copy again to be sure) To use your com blocking metals example, say your "droids" have to go cave diving for the enemy (we have seen them fight in caves in ST) and they lose their coms now they lose an important part of their function and are vulnerable.(especially dangerous in a cave fight were ambush is a real possibility)

You would be right there. Still, the connections enable the sharing of information allowing the drones to function as a far more cohesive unit than would be possible otherwise. If one of them goes down or if they all lose connections it doesn't nullify their ability to function, just their effectiveness as a group. There is no real "hive mind" action going on, although the computer core would admittedly be functioning in a similar role as the Commander of the forces.

Now I don't have a problem with a "tactical" communication network in fact I think even the "meatbags" could use some tactical coordination, but what's getting me is that you first claim that they need the network to run the "bots" then it becomes to command them and now you say its to monitor them. Its starting to feel like moving the goalpost to me, I hope it's just a bit of confusion on your part because if not then its kind of an offensive dodge. In the spirit of hope I'm going to think its a bit of non-clarity you didn't intend.

Quote:
avatarxprime wrote:
. Since intelligence is the issue in Federation robotics, have them all function as networked drones tied to a starship level computer core. The core (by virtue of the holodeck) has proven itself more than capable of running sufficiently intelligent AI to function as soldiers and contains its own power supply.

SapphireFox wrote:
According to your statement you NEED the core to actually RUN the programs that drive the robo-soldiers, if it were easy to run without the core you wouldn't need it at all.

avatarxprime wrote:
I will admit that my initial statement was hardly as clear as would be preferred in regard to the purpose of everything. The core is there for running error checking, coordinating movements, directing troop actions, interfacing with Starfleet command personnel and in general ensuring a smooth operational experience. It needs to be able to run all the AI that are in the field to be able to compare them to their defaults to ensure none of them are developing beyond their programs like the Hirogen's holo-prey did. This does not preclude the fact that the drones themselves will be running their own programs. However, it seems imperative to prevent any one instance of the program from running too long or experiencing too much beyond the confines of their program as this seems to result in the program gaining sentience and runs the risk of creating another Moriarty. Modified copies of the Doctor's Emergency Command Hologram program would probably be the only program allowed to develop sentience.

Again you say the core needs to run the programs not the bot running it locally. That kind of need is a fatal flaw in any kind of battlefield. If you disrupt such a network or distroy the core your AI's become vulnable or disabled. How are they supposed to know WHEN A PROGRAM GOES MORIARTY WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW IT HAPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE? Do I have to say it again? Check the program you say, compare it you say, TO WHAT they don't even know the difference is (computer wise) between moriarty and any other hologram character. Blanking the program periodically every now and then might be a good precaution against the doctor type of sentience, but you lose the ability to learn and progress beyond a certain point. If you are fine with that kind of con then that's ok, they are supposed to be disposable grunts after all. But it does nothing to stop a moriarty because he came out of the box like that.(due to a computer quirk from a command from La Forge)

as far as storage goes, the Doctor's program is capable of being stored in a tricorder size package (VOY:Living Witness). For individual processing ability I can't think of an example off the top of my head that deals with that level of intelligence in a compact package. The closest I can think of is the Exocomp, but it's level of intelligence is suspect, however it was considered to have a great deal of processing power. Both of those would point to having sufficient technology to run a holo-character level AI in a fairly small package. There is also the example of small level positronic processing technology used in DS9 by Dr. Bashir (sorry, don't remember the episode name) to replace portions of an individual's brain. Now that individual was being driven slowly insane, but that's likely due to conflict between the positronic implant and the individual's organic brain. A wholely artificial construct would most likely not experience similar effects.

As for storage divices they are just that storage devises not a computer with the necessary power to run that program. To use a modern example a flash drive or portable hard drive can store a program and fit in the palm of your hand but it is not capable of running that program on its own. In "Living Witness" the doctors program still had to be used by the museum computer to be functional, it was not capable of running it on its own. As for the positronic brain there is a big difference between supporting an existing structure and replacing said structure. You have also admitted that the positronic support was a failure since it drove the individual insane. Not the most stirring argument of support for the current level of positronic tech in the federation.

I'm actually working on a full-bore Federation ground forces setup for one of my stories and would post it here, but it's gonna take a while as the B5/ACE part of the story is just sucking up a lot of energy to work through. However, the basic inspiration comes from regular Trek, Star Fleet Command, various Trek games and Star Legions.

I do remember a ground base in DS9 Season 7 "Once More Unto the Breach" but I'm not 100% on the range it had.

One thing I've noticed in Trek is that for whatever reason they always seem to get into the range of their target's weapons before their fire their own, even if the Target is fixed (Every Battle against DS9, the aforementioned season 7 episode).

SapphireFox wrote:

As to the ECM issue, the use of high energy particles (like your examples), certain metal like in "Silicon Avatar," and even components of their own ships like in "Hero Worship" interfere with Trek communications. It's a known weakness of their technology and one they apparently exploit for some reason considering their own ships block their communication abilities. It's possible that they do have communications technology that is less able to be interfered with or that this, possibly, design based weakness can be corrected. However, IIRC all of those examples dealt with disruption of communications between planetside individuals and the ship, what about communications between individuals on the same planet? I used the site's Canon database to look up examples and couldn't find one where communications between people on a planet were interrupted. I think in "Insurrection" there was something regarding blocking communication between people on a planet but I'm not 100%.

Whether it is a weakness that comes from a physical source or not is irrelevant it still exists and needs to be compensated for in order to have a functioning battlefield network. Your "kill-bots" still need the network in order to function properly. If they have the technology that is less able to be interfered with then why haven't we seen or heard about it in any of the shows or movies? I believe you maybe right about insurrection. (although I'm probably going to have to watch my copy again to be sure) To use your com blocking metals example, say your "droids" have to go cave diving for the enemy (we have seen them fight in caves in ST) and they lose their coms now they lose an important part of their function and are vulnerable.(especially dangerous in a cave fight were ambush is a real possibility)

The drones would still be combat effective without networking. Look at the holo-prey the Hirogen created. They did not maintain networked brains and required an actual leader who issued verbal commands, still they were able to function well enough in combat as that's what they were programed to do. Their intelligence will not fail just because the network is disturbed, though admittedly their cohesion would suffer. Still this is just the same level of disruption that their organic counterparts would experience, so not exactly a deal breaker.

You would be right there. Still, the connections enable the sharing of information allowing the drones to function as a far more cohesive unit than would be possible otherwise. If one of them goes down or if they all lose connections it doesn't nullify their ability to function, just their effectiveness as a group. There is no real "hive mind" action going on, although the computer core would admittedly be functioning in a similar role as the Commander of the forces.

Now I don't have a problem with a "tactical" communication network in fact I think even the "meatbags" could use some tactical coordination, but what's getting me is that you first claim that they need the network to run the "bots" then it becomes to command them and now you say its to monitor them. Its starting to feel like moving the goalpost to me, I hope it's just a bit of confusion on your part because if not then its kind of an offensive dodge. In the spirit of hope I'm going to think its a bit of non-clarity you didn't intend.

SapphireFox wrote:

avatarxprime wrote:I will admit that my initial statement was hardly as clear as would be preferred in regard to the purpose of everything. The core is there for running error checking, coordinating movements, directing troop actions, interfacing with Starfleet command personnel and in general ensuring a smooth operational experience. It needs to be able to run all the AI that are in the field to be able to compare them to their defaults to ensure none of them are developing beyond their programs like the Hirogen's holo-prey did. This does not preclude the fact that the drones themselves will be running their own programs. However, it seems imperative to prevent any one instance of the program from running too long or experiencing too much beyond the confines of their program as this seems to result in the program gaining sentience and runs the risk of creating another Moriarty. Modified copies of the Doctor's Emergency Command Hologram program would probably be the only program allowed to develop sentience.

Again you say the core needs to run the programs not the bot running it locally. That kind of need is a fatal flaw in any kind of battlefield. If you disrupt such a network or distroy the core your AI's become vulnable or disabled. How are they supposed to know WHEN A PROGRAM GOES MORIARTY WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW IT HAPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE? Do I have to say it again? Check the program you say, compare it you say, TO WHAT they don't even know the difference is (computer wise) between moriarty and any other hologram character. Blanking the program periodically every now and then might be a good precaution against the doctor type of sentience, but you lose the ability to learn and progress beyond a certain point. If you are fine with that kind of con then that's ok, they are supposed to be disposable grunts after all. But it does nothing to stop a moriarty because he came out of the box like that.(due to a computer quirk from a command from La Forge)

You should continue reading, in the very next sentence (I bolded it) I say that the drones will be running their own programs. The core is running the AI in simulation mode for the purpose of safety. Right off the bat I admitted I have not been as clear as would be best in describing all of this since I had been taking a rather light handed approach to posts in this thread.

On to the Moriarty problem. The chance of an out-of-the-box Moriarity is greatly eliminated since the AIs will be based on already existing Federation soldier holo-characters, Moriarty was a wholely new program written exclusively by the computer, a situation not present here.* These holo-characters have been vetted as stable by their sheer amount of use in any number of holodecks. The other source of Moriartys (a term I am using to describe any independently capable AI not loyal to Starfleet) would be holo-characters that acquire sentience on their own like the Doctor. This is prevented by the drastic measure of having the core running a copy of all AIs in use during any given battle. Much like the exocomps or the EMH Mk. I itself, the programs have certain operational parameters that can be checked and measured. If the core detects that they are not following the actions they should it can take action. Janeway even pointed out that the Doctor not acting exactly according to design was a sign of his independent sentience. Even then a full computer core is not necessary since a starship level core runs the holodeck and every other system on a ship at the same time. To do the error checking, command, etc features that I would desire in this system a far stripped down one would be sufficient, just some kind of command core.

as far as storage goes, the Doctor's program is capable of being stored in a tricorder size package (VOY:Living Witness). For individual processing ability I can't think of an example off the top of my head that deals with that level of intelligence in a compact package. The closest I can think of is the Exocomp, but it's level of intelligence is suspect, however it was considered to have a great deal of processing power. Both of those would point to having sufficient technology to run a holo-character level AI in a fairly small package. There is also the example of small level positronic processing technology used in DS9 by Dr. Bashir (sorry, don't remember the episode name) to replace portions of an individual's brain. Now that individual was being driven slowly insane, but that's likely due to conflict between the positronic implant and the individual's organic brain. A wholely artificial construct would most likely not experience similar effects.

As for storage divices they are just that storage devises not a computer with the necessary power to run that program. To use a modern example a flash drive or portable hard drive can store a program and fit in the palm of your hand but it is not capable of running that program on its own. In "Living Witness" the doctors program still had to be used by the museum computer to be functional, it was not capable of running it on its own. As for the positronic brain there is a big difference between supporting an existing structure and replacing said structure. You have also admitted that the positronic support was a failure since it drove the individual insane. Not the most stirring argument of support for the current level of positronic tech in the federation.

I know, that's why first I brought up the issue of storing the Doctor's (or rather that level of program's) AI in a compact package that could easily fit inside a robo-soldier and then moved on to Federation computing technology. Citing some of the most compact ones I could think of that handled some level of intelligence, I came up with the exocomp and positronic implants. They both represent approaches to the level of processing power necessary to run these programs. An exocomp or a positronic matrix or some hybrid might even be able to run a holo-AI, but we don't know because its never been something the show has had any reason to show. The only thing we know is that miniaturizing holo-emitters and combining that with sufficient memory to store an AI, sensors that can give that AI physical sensations, processing power to run said AI and a power source capable of sustaining the whole thing took into the 29th Century, at most, where it appears to have become common enough to find in a shuttlepod size timeship. Luckily we're dealing with a solid character (no holo-emitter needed) and a far larger size for the whole system.

As to the positronic implants we know from the show that only Dr. Soong has ever created a proper positronic brain and that this early version of the Starfleet technology (which based on Dr. Bashir could have replaced the individual's brain) did not get along well with organic material. The patient felt their memories and sensations were not their own. Although this is a symptom of greater mental disorder, the person was still capable of functioning. It is also worth noting that certain types of brain tramua can result in the exact same problem. It is likely that the reason the patient suffered was that the Federation does not yet have sufficient understanding of positronic technology for signal translation between the positronic implants and the normal brain. The issue with organics is removed in this case since the construct will be wholely artificial from the get go. The fact that the brain could be replaced by the implant shows sufficient maturation of the technology to have it be viable for this purpose. We're not looking for producing another Data (nice, but let's start small), we're looking to produce what is essentially a disposable soldier that would give the Federation a solid edge in ground combat and necessitate as small a risk on the part of Starfleet and its officers as possible.

As to the issue of losing adapability or hampering growth by wiping the program after a certain amount of time or even having some kind of command core in charge of all of them, I am being as security paranoid as possible. In regards to sentience, or just a high level of ability, prior holo-AI have been shown to have that right out of the box. The lounge singer from DS9 was supposed to be sentient/self-aware. So it is seems it is possible for some Federation scientists to write sentient or simply very advanced AI. Writing new AIs in this manner would open the door to greater operational time limits before needing a wipe or possibly removing the issue all together. There is also the issue of program life time, the Doctor could only last so long and needed various upgrades to continue functioning. If these AIs are simply modified versions of existing holo-AI they would have in-built limits to functional time in the first place. They would still need to be placed in a larger matrix to allow them to continue growing over time, something that can be better handled with a wipe to their systems and a "tactical subroutine" upgrade from the computer core in charge of them all for maintaining control and security.

*As an aside, it is likely that Moriarty was created by the computer running a simulation of Data's neural net and then applying a "Dr. James Moriarty" personality over the whole thing. We know that Trek computers can scan a person's brain and "encode their neural engrams" inside the computer and run them as a holo-program. We also know it can create a holo-program of an individual based on a psychological analysis and publically available information, like Geordi's Leah Brahms program. Moriarity is probably a combination of these aspects of the computer core's ability, although we won't know for sure unless it comes up again and they give us a definitive answer.

avatarxprime wrote:The drones would still be combat effective without networking. Look at the holo-prey the Hirogen created. They did not maintain networked brains and required an actual leader who issued verbal commands, still they were able to function well enough in combat as that's what they were programed to do. Their intelligence will not fail just because the network is disturbed, though admittedly their cohesion would suffer. Still this is just the same level of disruption that their organic counterparts would experience, so not exactly a deal breaker.

The hirogen holo-prey still needed a computer core to run. They required a leader and verbal commands because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE PROGRAMED! They were supposed to act EXACTLY like their prey so that how they were programmed to operate. If you don't think that the loss of communication in a cave environment kills just look up the "Tunnel Rats" in the Vietnam War. You will find that they had a rather high death rate.

You should continue reading, in the very next sentence (I bolded it) I say that the drones will be running their own programs. The core is running the AI in simulation mode for the purpose of safety. Right off the bat I admitted I have not been as clear as would be best in describing all of this since I had been taking a rather light handed approach to posts in this thread.On to the Moriarty problem. The chance of an out-of-the-box Moriarity is greatly eliminated since the AIs will be based on already existing Federation soldier holo-characters, Moriarty was a wholely new program written exclusively by the computer, a situation not present here.* These holo-characters have been vetted as stable by their sheer amount of use in any number of holodecks. The other source of Moriartys (a term I am using to describe any independently capable AI not loyal to Starfleet) would be holo-characters that acquire sentience on their own like the Doctor. This is prevented by the drastic measure of having the core running a copy of all AIs in use during any given battle. Much like the exocomps or the EMH Mk. I itself, the programs have certain operational parameters that can be checked and measured. If the core detects that they are not following the actions they should it can take action. Janeway even pointed out that the Doctor not acting exactly according to design was a sign of his independent sentience. Even then a full computer core is not necessary since a starship level core runs the holodeck and every other system on a ship at the same time. To do the error checking, command, etc features that I would desire in this system a far stripped down one would be sufficient, just some kind of command core.

I agree that the chance of a moriarty is reduced if you use a "cookie cutter" type of program but hardly eliminated. If you are running a copy in the core at the same time if one goes moriarty now not only you will have rouge physically in the field causing problems the copy in the core will be causing havoc at the same time! It seems you want a two for one deal on your problem. As for your stripped down command core. Um...ok ....so what? Now have the stripped down wartime jeep model. Is there a point?

I know, that's why first I brought up the issue of storing the Doctor's (or rather that level of program's) AI in a compact package that could easily fit inside a robo-soldier and then moved on to Federation computing technology. Citing some of the most compact ones I could think of that handled some level of intelligence, I came up with the exocomp and positronic implants. They both represent approaches to the level of processing power necessary to run these programs. An exocomp or a positronic matrix or some hybrid might even be able to run a holo-AI, but we don't know because its never been something the show has had any reason to show. The only thing we know is that miniaturizing holo-emitters and combining that with sufficient memory to store an AI, sensors that can give that AI physical sensations, processing power to run said AI and a power source capable of sustaining the whole thing took into the 29th Century, at most, where it appears to have become common enough to find in a shuttlepod size timeship. Luckily we're dealing with a solid character (no holo-emitter needed) and a far larger size for the whole system

In the end all that means is the federation at large doesn't yet possess the miniaturization tech necessary to wedge the whole AI into a human sized brain case and run it.

As to the positronic implants we know from the show that only Dr. Soong has ever created a proper positronic brain and that this early version of the Starfleet technology (which based on Dr. Bashir could have replaced the individual's brain) did not get along well with organic material. The patient felt their memories and sensations were not their own. Although this is a symptom of greater mental disorder, the person was still capable of functioning. It is also worth noting that certain types of brain tramua can result in the exact same problem. It is likely that the reason the patient suffered was that the Federation does not yet have sufficient understanding of positronic technology for signal translation between the positronic implants and the normal brain. The issue with organics is removed in this case since the construct will be wholely artificial from the get go. The fact that the brain could be replaced by the implant shows sufficient maturation of the technology to have it be viable for this purpose. We're not looking for producing another Data (nice, but let's start small), we're looking to produce what is essentially a disposable soldier that would give the Federation a solid edge in ground combat and necessitate as small a risk on the part of Starfleet and its officers as possible.

True, the federation can't enough of a positronic brain yet for the necessary purposes but it looks like a promising avenue of research and I think the federation could pull it off within the century if they truly put effort into it. Your its good enough now because its only needed to be a soldier idea only works if you can prove that being a soldier requires less intelligence then being a normal general purpose individual. For example you might say a soldier taking orders doesn't have to think as much but in reality a soldier takes orders so the whole group can function as a single directed entity as opposed to a mob, it takes the same brainpower to do the tasks assigned to you as a soldier as if a normal person is assigned a task.

*As an aside, it is likely that Moriarty was created by the computer running a simulation of Data's neural net and then applying a "Dr. James Moriarty" personality over the whole thing. We know that Trek computers can scan a person's brain and "encode their neural engrams" inside the computer and run them as a holo-program. We also know it can create a holo-program of an individual based on a psychological analysis and publically available information, like Geordi's Leah Brahms program. Moriarity is probably a combination of these aspects of the computer core's ability, although we won't know for sure unless it comes up again and they give us a definitive answer.

Who knows, we can only hope that they use moriarty again somewhere so we can find out.

Though the moriarty eps give an interesting idea for possibly spamming soldiers out (or any other type of person you need) that I wanted to get opinions on, even though they were on a time constraint and did not succeed in time. The idea is since transporters, replicators, and the holodeck run on similar principals, the transporter could be used in combo with the holodeck to effectively create a super-replicator that could beam off anything or anyone that could be created by the holodeck. This would allow you to effectively design a person (on the holodeck) and create him in reality (ie beam him off the holodeck). This would allow you spam out how ever many of who ever you want.

Who knows, we can only hope that they use moriarty again somewhere so we can find out.

There's nothing to 'find out'. I can't imagine the original writers of those episodes actually going back and writing new material on the subject, so whatever you conjure up will be just as valid.

Hell, write a book. Maybe it'll sell. They'll publish lame shit like the "Starfleet Survival Guide", I can't imagine a follow-up on Moriarty's story being worse. (Although there might be legal issues due to the Doyle estate. Hmm.)

SapphireFox wrote:

avatarxprime wrote:The drones would still be combat effective without networking. Look at the holo-prey the Hirogen created. They did not maintain networked brains and required an actual leader who issued verbal commands, still they were able to function well enough in combat as that's what they were programed to do. Their intelligence will not fail just because the network is disturbed, though admittedly their cohesion would suffer. Still this is just the same level of disruption that their organic counterparts would experience, so not exactly a deal breaker.

The hirogen holo-prey still needed a computer core to run. They required a leader and verbal commands because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE PROGRAMED! They were supposed to act EXACTLY like their prey so that how they were programmed to operate. If you don't think that the loss of communication in a cave environment kills just look up the "Tunnel Rats" in the Vietnam War. You will find that they had a rather high death rate.

Let's see, I think I acknowledged that the Hirogen holo-prey were programmed to function like that (see the bolded text). As to the communication issue, nice strawman. Please show me where I said that a loss of communication will not result in a higher rate of attrition? All I've said on the matter is that the drones would experience the same level of disruption as their organic counterparts and it is therefore not a dealbreaker since they are no worse off.

You should continue reading, in the very next sentence (I bolded it) I say that the drones will be running their own programs. The core is running the AI in simulation mode for the purpose of safety. Right off the bat I admitted I have not been as clear as would be best in describing all of this since I had been taking a rather light handed approach to posts in this thread.On to the Moriarty problem. The chance of an out-of-the-box Moriarity is greatly eliminated since the AIs will be based on already existing Federation soldier holo-characters, Moriarty was a wholely new program written exclusively by the computer, a situation not present here.* These holo-characters have been vetted as stable by their sheer amount of use in any number of holodecks. The other source of Moriartys (a term I am using to describe any independently capable AI not loyal to Starfleet) would be holo-characters that acquire sentience on their own like the Doctor. This is prevented by the drastic measure of having the core running a copy of all AIs in use during any given battle. Much like the exocomps or the EMH Mk. I itself, the programs have certain operational parameters that can be checked and measured. If the core detects that they are not following the actions they should it can take action. Janeway even pointed out that the Doctor not acting exactly according to design was a sign of his independent sentience. Even then a full computer core is not necessary since a starship level core runs the holodeck and every other system on a ship at the same time. To do the error checking, command, etc features that I would desire in this system a far stripped down one would be sufficient, just some kind of command core.

I agree that the chance of a moriarty is reduced if you use a "cookie cutter" type of program but hardly eliminated. If you are running a copy in the core at the same time if one goes moriarty now not only you will have rouge physically in the field causing problems the copy in the core will be causing havoc at the same time! It seems you want a two for one deal on your problem. As for your stripped down command core. Um...ok ....so what? Now have the stripped down wartime jeep model. Is there a point?

When has any Federation holo-AI just up and went sentient out of the realm of control of Starfleet, or simply the computer to wipe, and start over? Moriarty is the only one that comes to mind and he was a special case. All others required some amount of time and began showing signs of true intelligence slowly, providing ample time to go wipe them and prevent them from becoming a problem. If it wasn't for Data's interference the same would have happened to the Exocomps. Hell, even Moriarty could be wiped, Picard just didn't want to end him that way, hence putting him in the protected memory at the end of the first episode. Anyway as to the AI running in sim-mode, it is easy enough to run a separate instance for every big decision the version in the field has to make, completely eliminating the chance of it developing intelligence. Even if you decided to run the sim-AI continuously, it will be running in a sim-mode so I won't be experiencing as much information as the one in the field (reducing its chance of developing intelligence), and unlike Federation IT specialists I wouldn't let it have direct access to the command core. It would run in a virtual PC produced by the main core and if it does somehow start developing intelligence it will be wiped and the command to wipe the drone will be sent out as well. So, both the sim-AI or the field-AI should always remain perfectly "wipeable" regardless of the situation.

As to smaller command core, you were talking about how much of a vulnerability it would be with a big starship core so I was just pointing out that doesn't need to be the case. The core can be shrunken down quite a bit since it needs less processing power, which provides more room to protect it from attack with additional protection.

I know, that's why first I brought up the issue of storing the Doctor's (or rather that level of program's) AI in a compact package that could easily fit inside a robo-soldier and then moved on to Federation computing technology. Citing some of the most compact ones I could think of that handled some level of intelligence, I came up with the exocomp and positronic implants. They both represent approaches to the level of processing power necessary to run these programs. An exocomp or a positronic matrix or some hybrid might even be able to run a holo-AI, but we don't know because its never been something the show has had any reason to show. The only thing we know is that miniaturizing holo-emitters and combining that with sufficient memory to store an AI, sensors that can give that AI physical sensations, processing power to run said AI and a power source capable of sustaining the whole thing took into the 29th Century, at most, where it appears to have become common enough to find in a shuttlepod size timeship. Luckily we're dealing with a solid character (no holo-emitter needed) and a far larger size for the whole system

In the end all that means is the federation at large doesn't yet possess the miniaturization tech necessary to wedge the whole AI into a human sized brain case and run it.

How does this matter? The AI and parts needed to run it don't need to fit in the head of the drone. If I was designing it I wouldn't even put them there in the first place. It's safer to stick the "brains" of the thing in an armored chest cavity which is larger to boot. For the purpose of the drone we just need the technology sufficiently small enough to fit inside a humanoid body with enough extra space to allow for functional locomotion.

As to the positronic implants we know from the show that only Dr. Soong has ever created a proper positronic brain and that this early version of the Starfleet technology (which based on Dr. Bashir could have replaced the individual's brain) did not get along well with organic material. The patient felt their memories and sensations were not their own. Although this is a symptom of greater mental disorder, the person was still capable of functioning. It is also worth noting that certain types of brain tramua can result in the exact same problem. It is likely that the reason the patient suffered was that the Federation does not yet have sufficient understanding of positronic technology for signal translation between the positronic implants and the normal brain. The issue with organics is removed in this case since the construct will be wholely artificial from the get go. The fact that the brain could be replaced by the implant shows sufficient maturation of the technology to have it be viable for this purpose. We're not looking for producing another Data (nice, but let's start small), we're looking to produce what is essentially a disposable soldier that would give the Federation a solid edge in ground combat and necessitate as small a risk on the part of Starfleet and its officers as possible.

True, the federation can't enough of a positronic brain yet for the necessary purposes but it looks like a promising avenue of research and I think the federation could pull it off within the century if they truly put effort into it. Your its good enough now because its only needed to be a soldier idea only works if you can prove that being a soldier requires less intelligence then being a normal general purpose individual. For example you might say a soldier taking orders doesn't have to think as much but in reality a soldier takes orders so the whole group can function as a single directed entity as opposed to a mob, it takes the same brainpower to do the tasks assigned to you as a soldier as if a normal person is assigned a task.

Umm, you do understand that Dr. Bashir (a medical expert in the ST-universe) felt that the positronic implants could replace the patient's brain, but simply decided against the procedure because of the side-effects the patient was experiencing? That hardly speaks against the implant's ability to handle human level intelligence. Any reference I made to not needing to create another Data was in respect to the extremely high (higher than human) level of functioning Data is capable of. I have made no other statements as to the intelligence needed to be a solider other than saying as long as we can produce roughly human level the drones should be fine. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Though the moriarty eps give an interesting idea for possibly spamming soldiers out (or any other type of person you need) that I wanted to get opinions on, even though they were on a time constraint and did not succeed in time. The idea is since transporters, replicators, and the holodeck run on similar principals, the transporter could be used in combo with the holodeck to effectively create a super-replicator that could beam off anything or anyone that could be created by the holodeck. This would allow you to effectively design a person (on the holodeck) and create him in reality (ie beam him off the holodeck). This would allow you spam out how ever many of who ever you want.

Yes, but as far as we know this avenue of research has been completely abandoned and it working in the first place was considered dubious IIRC.

avatarxprime wrote:Let's see, I think I acknowledged that the Hirogen holo-prey were programmed to function like that (see the bolded text). As to the communication issue, nice strawman. Please show me where I said that a loss of communication will not result in a higher rate of attrition? All I've said on the matter is that the drones would experience the same level of disruption as their organic counterparts and it is therefore not a dealbreaker since they are no worse off.

I said that because you seemed to be handwaveing the possibility of communications disruption on the network and the effect it might have on the "kill-bots".I never stated that they would be any worse off than organics without communications if they are independent of each other just that it can be deadly. So you can take your strawman back and burn it yourself. As for the hirogen holo-prey you keep forgetting that they all were running from the same core together so don't tell me that the computer didn't know what it's programs were doing or that they couldn't be communicating to each other through the core.

When has any Federation holo-AI just up and went sentient out of the realm of control of Starfleet, or simply the computer to wipe, and start over? Moriarty is the only one that comes to mind and he was a special case. All others required some amount of time and began showing signs of true intelligence slowly, providing ample time to go wipe them and prevent them from becoming a problem. If it wasn't for Data's interference the same would have happened to the Exocomps. Hell, even Moriarty could be wiped, Picard just didn't want to end him that way, hence putting him in the protected memory at the end of the first episode. Anyway as to the AI running in sim-mode, it is easy enough to run a separate instance for every big decision the version in the field has to make, completely eliminating the chance of it developing intelligence. Even if you decided to run the sim-AI continuously, it will be running in a sim-mode so I won't be experiencing as much information as the one in the field (reducing its chance of developing intelligence), and unlike Federation IT specialists I wouldn't let it have direct access to the command core. It would run in a virtual PC produced by the main core and if it does somehow start developing intelligence it will be wiped and the command to wipe the drone will be sent out as well. So, both the sim-AI or the field-AI should always remain perfectly "wipeable" regardless of the situation.

Just use a way that can be disconnected physically from the core like a 24th century thumb drive equivalent and then I would call it a good plan.

How does this matter? The AI and parts needed to run it don't need to fit in the head of the drone. If I was designing it I wouldn't even put them there in the first place. It's safer to stick the "brains" of the thing in an armored chest cavity which is larger to boot. For the purpose of the drone we just need the technology sufficiently small enough to fit inside a humanoid body with enough extra space to allow for functional locomotion.

Oh, and where were you planning to put the power core/cells to run the damned thing? Or any other important mechanical vitals for that matter? There only so much room in the thoracic cavity. Last I checked Data's thoracic cavity was filled with manically important systems so I don't think there would be a lot of room there for you to put a brain equivalent exceeding the dimensions of a nominal head.

Umm, you do understand that Dr. Bashir (a medical expert in the ST-universe) felt that the positronic implants could replace the patient's brain, but simply decided against the procedure because of the side-effects the patient was experiencing? That hardly speaks against the implant's ability to handle human level intelligence. Any reference I made to not needing to create another Data was in respect to the extremely high (higher than human) level of functioning Data is capable of. I have made no other statements as to the intelligence needed to be a solider other than saying as long as we can produce roughly human level the drones should be fine. Please don't put words in my mouth.

That statement doesn't speak to the ability that it would be functional with the quality necessary to function on a human level. Besides iirc Bashir also said that the results if tried would only be a shell compared to before "he would look like Bariel sound like Bariel but he wouldn't be Bariel". More importantly if were possible to produce a human level positronic brain with an acceptable size with 24th century knowledge wouldn't we have seen something similar already? You know like a smart AI probe for hostile environments or something.

avatarxprime wrote:

SapphireFox wrote:Though the moriarty eps give an interesting idea for possibly spamming soldiers out (or any other type of person you need) that I wanted to get opinions on, even though they were on a time constraint and did not succeed in time. The idea is since transporters, replicators, and the holodeck run on similar principals, the transporter could be used in combo with the holodeck to effectively create a super-replicator that could beam off anything or anyone that could be created by the holodeck. This would allow you to effectively design a person (on the holodeck) and create him in reality (ie beam him off the holodeck). This would allow you spam out how ever many of who ever you want.

Yes, but as far as we know this avenue of research has been completely abandoned and it working in the first place was considered dubious IIRC.

True but the idea does raise some interesting possibilities that might be worth researching.

I can't believe it took me this long to find some time to respond. I'm really sorry about that.

I said that because you seemed to be handwaveing the possibility of communications disruption on the network and the effect it might have on the "kill-bots".I never stated that they would be any worse off than organics without communications if they are independent of each other just that it can be deadly. So you can take your strawman back and burn it yourself.

Handwaving what? My only statement regarding that has been they will suffer no worse communications breakdown than organics, period. I have not said a single thing other than that. However, so long as we are both on the same page now it doesn't matter.

SapphireFox wrote:As for the hirogen holo-prey you keep forgetting that they all were running from the same core together so don't tell me that the computer didn't know what it's programs were doing or that they couldn't be communicating to each other through the core.

Yes, I imagine the computer did know what was going on, just like your PC knows when you're playing a game and have a media player running. That doesn't mean your game and your media player are talking to one another behind the scenes when all evidence points to the contrary. In the episode they never once show them communicating in any manner other than standard verbal communication. The closest I can think of is the memory transfer, but that wasn't really communication since it was strictly the memory of the holo-AI doing the transfer with no modification, the equivalent of cut-and-paste. If you want to claim that they did, then provide some proof.

Just use a way that can be disconnected physically from the core like a 24th century thumb drive equivalent and then I would call it a good plan.

Are you talking about the drones or the core itself? It would be a bad idea to have a readily detachable memory storage unit on the drone, but it's an acceptable idea for the computer core.

Sapphire Fox wrote:

How does this matter? The AI and parts needed to run it don't need to fit in the head of the drone. If I was designing it I wouldn't even put them there in the first place. It's safer to stick the "brains" of the thing in an armored chest cavity which is larger to boot. For the purpose of the drone we just need the technology sufficiently small enough to fit inside a humanoid body with enough extra space to allow for functional locomotion.

Oh, and where were you planning to put the power core/cells to run the damned thing? Or any other important mechanical vitals for that matter? There only so much room in the thoracic cavity. Last I checked Data's thoracic cavity was filled with manically important systems so I don't think there would be a lot of room there for you to put a brain equivalent exceeding the dimensions of a nominal head.

Yes, and we don't need all the systems that Data has in a bot designed to be a disposable attack drone. Look at the current DARPA exo-skeleton. A few months back I was watching a special on it where a DARPA representative was saying that it would be easy* to turn it into a combat robot by adding armor, sensors, and intelligence. That's a roughly human sized package right there that can already move on its own, and is agile and dexterous enough be useable in urban combat. Surely Starfleet can reproduce a similar level device and add appropriate armor and intelligence systems. Better yet, who says it even needs to be shaped like a human? You're the one who started that idea and its a design constraint that is largely unnecessary. I would favor something more like a large version of Pike's hover chair from TOS, possibly with Exocomp style anti-grav abilities. That was armoring the thing is relatively easy and you maximize internal volume for producing something the size of a very large humanoid sitting. Even the Exocomp (or more specifically a larger variant) would be a perfectly suitable. We know they are capable of sufficient agility to maneuver in the tight tubes they showed in the episode and they are plenty fast. It took an Excomp at the beginning of the episode ~17 seconds to travel 200 meters and effect repairs. Since it took a similar amount of time for it to return I'm calling the 17s the trip time. That's an avg. speed of 11.76 m/s, well on pace with the fastest sprinters in the world. Now with added bulk from improved processors, memory, power, and sensors that speed would probably drop some, but that is still fast enough to be useable in combat.

Umm, you do understand that Dr. Bashir (a medical expert in the ST-universe) felt that the positronic implants could replace the patient's brain, but simply decided against the procedure because of the side-effects the patient was experiencing? That hardly speaks against the implant's ability to handle human level intelligence. Any reference I made to not needing to create another Data was in respect to the extremely high (higher than human) level of functioning Data is capable of. I have made no other statements as to the intelligence needed to be a solider other than saying as long as we can produce roughly human level the drones should be fine. Please don't put words in my mouth.

That statement doesn't speak to the ability that it would be functional with the quality necessary to function on a human level. Besides iirc Bashir also said that the results if tried would only be a shell compared to before "he would look like Bariel sound like Bariel but he wouldn't be Bariel".

Who says it wouldn't? Bashir's statements were simply reflections of his (and Federation citizens at large's) bias on machine intelligence.

Here's the entire conversation up to them deciding to let him die:

DS9:Life Support wrote:KIRA: It's the other half of his brain, isn't it? But you can still help him can't you? You can replace the other half of his brain with a positronic matrix.
BASHIR: I'm sorry, Nerys, but this is where it ends.
KIRA: What do you mean?
BASHIR: I won't remove whatever last shred of humanity Bareil has left.
KIRA: But you can do it.
WINN: Perhaps, child, it is time to listen to Doctor Bashir.
KIRA: Sure. You've got your peace treaty, your place in history. You don't need Bareil anymore.
WINN: Believe me child, I share your pain. But I think the Prophets are calling to Bareil. I will see to it that Bajor never forgets him. Doctor.
(Winn puts her hand on Bareil's chest for a moment, then leaves.)
KIRA: Julian, you can't give up now. You have to keep going.
BASHIR: Nerys, if I remove the rest of his brain and replace it with a machine, he may look like Bareil, he may even talk like Bareil, but he won't be Bareil. The spark of life will be gone. He'll be dead. And I'll be the one who killed him.
KIRA: But if we do nothing he'll die.
BASHIR: That's right, he will. But he'll die like a man, not a machine. Please, don't make me fight you on this one. Just let him go.

I've bolded the parts where Bashir clrealy shows he's not talking as a medical professional but someone who simply doesn't think that someone with an artificial brain is still human.

Here's another bit from earlier in the episode:

DS9:Life Support wrote:BASHIR: One of my professors at medical school used to say that the brain had a spark of life that can't be replicated. If we begin to replace parts of Bareil's brain with artificial implants, that spark may be lost.

It's bias plain and simple. Bashir's statement is not reflective of the positronic's lack of ability to properly emulate Bareil's brain, but rather his personal belief that it is wrong and he won't be a "Man" anymore. The only problem we've seen with the technology is that it seems to emulate certain kinds of brain damage where you feel like your sensations are not your own, they are distant somehow. This is likely an issue with transferring signals to and from the positronic implant, although I admit this is only an inference. However, this is highly unlikely to be an issue with a wholely artificial construct like the drones.

Sapphire Fox wrote:More importantly if were possible to produce a human level positronic brain with an acceptable size with 24th century knowledge wouldn't we have seen something similar already? You know like a smart AI probe for hostile environments or something.

Not really, this site is rife with examples of Starfleet or the Federation at large not using their technology in obvious ways. Besides there seem to be issues with the idea of using holo-AI in the role of true intelligence. Although we've seen the Doctor's program can interface with several different types of systems and holo-AIs can easily run computers like organic users they have never really been used in this capacity. More importantly from and out-of-universe perspective if they did start running these easy fixes, Data wouldn't be so special anymore


*The hard part being developing a suitable artifiical intelligence in a small enough package.

avatarxprime wrote:I can't believe it took me this long to find some time to respond. I'm really sorry about that.

I understand the demands of real life, there is nothing to apologize for. As long as we don't have to resort to the black art of thread necromancy I have no problem in you taking the time you need for real life.

Yes, I imagine the computer did know what was going on, just like your PC knows when you're playing a game and have a media player running. That doesn't mean your game and your media player are talking to one another behind the scenes when all evidence points to the contrary. In the episode they never once show them communicating in any manner other than standard verbal communication. The closest I can think of is the memory transfer, but that wasn't really communication since it was strictly the memory of the holo-AI doing the transfer with no modification, the equivalent of cut-and-paste. If you want to claim that they did, then provide some proof.

Unfortunately without knowing what is happening inside the hirogen computer we can't be certain if either of us is correct. Without knowing Hirogen programing we don't know if they are communicating or linked or not. It is an alien computer all either of us can do is give our best guess.

Are you talking about the drones or the core itself? It would be a bad idea to have a readily detachable memory storage unit on the drone, but it's an acceptable idea for the computer core.

I am talking about on the computer core itself. If the program starts to go rouge then you can simply remove it and it can no longer infect or affect the whole core only the drive. This may also allow you to save the program for reuse if the core is hit in combat.

Yes, and we don't need all the systems that Data has in a bot designed to be a disposable attack drone. Look at the current DARPA exo-skeleton. A few months back I was watching a special on it where a DARPA representative was saying that it would be easy* to turn it into a combat robot by adding armor, sensors, and intelligence. That's a roughly human sized package right there that can already move on its own, and is agile and dexterous enough be useable in urban combat. Surely Starfleet can reproduce a similar level device and add appropriate armor and intelligence systems. Better yet, who says it even needs to be shaped like a human? You're the one who started that idea and its a design constraint that is largely unnecessary. I would favor something more like a large version of Pike's hover chair from TOS, possibly with Exocomp style anti-grav abilities. That was armoring the thing is relatively easy and you maximize internal volume for producing something the size of a very large humanoid sitting. Even the Exocomp (or more specifically a larger variant) would be a perfectly suitable. We know they are capable of sufficient agility to maneuver in the tight tubes they showed in the episode and they are plenty fast. It took an Excomp at the beginning of the episode ~17 seconds to travel 200 meters and effect repairs. Since it took a similar amount of time for it to return I'm calling the 17s the trip time. That's an avg. speed of 11.76 m/s, well on pace with the fastest sprinters in the world. Now with added bulk from improved processors, memory, power, and sensors that speed would probably drop some, but that is still fast enough to be useable in combat.

If your using Pike's chair as a base the end product would have an ironic resemblance to a feddie Dalek. That would be awesome. Since it is hovering it might be possible to shield it if you can find a shield generator small enough. If you decide to use a non humanoid size frame then allot of my issues with AI brain miniaturization can be ignored as you would have the space necessary to cram in all the electronic goodness. The "Feddie Dalek" design is a decent size or if you still would like something humanoid shaped then it would need to be Space Marine size complete with it's power armor bulk.

Not really, this site is rife with examples of Starfleet or the Federation at large not using their technology in obvious ways. Besides there seem to be issues with the idea of using holo-AI in the role of true intelligence. Although we've seen the Doctor's program can interface with several different types of systems and holo-AIs can easily run computers like organic users they have never really been used in this capacity. More importantly from and out-of-universe perspective if they did start running these easy fixes, Data wouldn't be so special anymore.

No he wouldn't be so special anymore. There is probably some societal reason for Bashir's AI bias much like there is for genetically modified people in the federation, who knows. As for not using their tech to the best of their ability, well we could call it a bad sci-fi moment on that account.

SapphireFox wrote:

avatarxprime wrote:I can't believe it took me this long to find some time to respond. I'm really sorry about that.

I understand the demands of real life, there is nothing to apologize for. As long as we don't have to resort to the black art of thread necromancy I have no problem in you taking the time you need for real life.

Thanks for understanding.

Yes, I imagine the computer did know what was going on, just like your PC knows when you're playing a game and have a media player running. That doesn't mean your game and your media player are talking to one another behind the scenes when all evidence points to the contrary. In the episode they never once show them communicating in any manner other than standard verbal communication. The closest I can think of is the memory transfer, but that wasn't really communication since it was strictly the memory of the holo-AI doing the transfer with no modification, the equivalent of cut-and-paste. If you want to claim that they did, then provide some proof.

Unfortunately without knowing what is happening inside the hirogen computer we can't be certain if either of us is correct. Without knowing Hirogen programing we don't know if they are communicating or linked or not. It is an alien computer all either of us can do is give our best guess.

True, but it's always best to err on the side of caution and stick to Occam's Razor. They never really talked about or showed communication other than verbal so I'm sticking with that.

If your using Pike's chair as a base the end product would have an ironic resemblance to a feddie Dalek. That would be awesome. Since it is hovering it might be possible to shield it if you can find a shield generator small enough. If you decide to use a non humanoid size frame then allot of my issues with AI brain miniaturization can be ignored as you would have the space necessary to cram in all the electronic goodness. The "Feddie Dalek" design is a decent size or if you still would like something humanoid shaped then it would need to be Space Marine size complete with it's power armor bulk.

Yeah I know, I started drawing out my idea at one point and it very quickly began looking like everyone's favorite weaponized pepper pot. Especially once you add the Exocomp replicator port to the front, that thing just screams Dalek. Going the otherway with a super-sized humanoid ala a Space Marine would be fun too though.

Not really, this site is rife with examples of Starfleet or the Federation at large not using their technology in obvious ways. Besides there seem to be issues with the idea of using holo-AI in the role of true intelligence. Although we've seen the Doctor's program can interface with several different types of systems and holo-AIs can easily run computers like organic users they have never really been used in this capacity. More importantly from and out-of-universe perspective if they did start running these easy fixes, Data wouldn't be so special anymore.

No he wouldn't be so special anymore. There is probably some societal reason for Bashir's AI bias much like there is for genetically modified people in the federation, who knows. As for not using their tech to the best of their ability, well we could call it a bad sci-fi moment on that account.

Yeah, there's just so many of them we might as well go from moment to montage, possibly even clip show . I was watching the Exocomp episode again for this thread and saw the energy drain device they use. What happened there? Energy siphon at-a-distance technology would come in quite handy, it's possible the Borg anti-shield blast is an evolution of this technology. :sigh: So much interesting tech that is only ever used once.

avatarxprime wrote:Yeah, there's just so many of them we might as well go from moment to montage, possibly even clip show . I was watching the Exocomp episode again for this thread and saw the energy drain device they use. What happened there? Energy siphon at-a-distance technology would come in quite handy, it's possible the Borg anti-shield blast is an evolution of this technology. :sigh: So much interesting tech that is only ever used once.

If the borg shield is an energy drain effect then that would explain why physical weapons are so effective against them. The energy drain as a shield effect probably would not be affected by contact with the ground and thus would allow for personal shielding without shield burnout due to ground contact. Considering that it drains energy from weapon fire it would be likely that it would require far less energy to protect from energy weapons then an equivalent amount of conventional shielding. This kind of shielding would make even more sense to use on the "feddie Dalek" design since it is an armored chassis that can handle average physical impacts rather than a borg with exposed squishy bits.