Utah to criminalize Miscarriages

[Alyrium Denryle]

But it is hedged about with restrictions to make it as difficult and unpleasant and humiliating as they can, since they can't make it outright illegal. So, yes, the mentality involved is just the same as the one that wants women to be forced into some equivalent of a burkha or for a husband to be allowed to rape his wife if he feels like it.

Huh the mentality behind anti-abortion seems to be the preservation of a childs life, and not that women are inferior and are slaves to their husbands.

Except that such groups correlate very strongly with organizations that are misogynistic, and with movements that seek female submission.

Moreover, they dont give a shit about the kid after it is born-as these same individuals tend to cut funding to childcare, prenatal care, education, and children's healthcare programs.

If they really gave a shit out saving the kids life, barring catholics, they seldom object to making exceptions for rape victims. If they really cared about the kid, they would not punish it for being raped. Instead their behavior is more consistent with wanting to punish the slutty woman.

To me that doesn't allow any miscarriage to be designated as a violation. For example, I don't know if excessive alcohol consumption could cause a miscarriage, but say a pregnant female had a miscarriage and it was found that she was drinking heavily after learning that she was pregnant...then she could probably be charged.

And this is a load of horseshit. Of course she will be drinking heavily after she finds out she is pregnant with a parasite she cannot abort.

I imagine the teen would have to file charges of rape against her father, uncle, etc and then she would be able to proceed.

And you know damn well that rapes in general are under-reported, and incest-rapes especially so.

Uh... the fact that recklessness is defined such that any first-year law student can rattle it off? Suffice it to say, the law requires much more than "anything which can terminate a pregnancy, regardless of intent." Indeed, recklessness is in contrast to intent and negligence. It requires conscious disregard of a known and unacceptable risk. Getting beaten up by your husband and miscarrying as a result is not recklessness.

But staying in an abusive relationship is.

But it is sensible.

How is charging someone for killing a non-person with homicide in any way sensible? Especially when the state has gone out of its way to cut off all legal means of killing said non-person?

What's your point? Even mormons living in a state with a "DeFacto Mormon Theocracy" have to obey the law...

My point is that there are plenty of self-righteous individuals in positions of authority who are ready and willing to use that authority and a (possibly intentionally) poorly constructed law in order to cause harm to those they consider unclean.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Except that such groups correlate very strongly with organizations that are misogynistic, and with movements that seek female submission.

Moreover, they dont give a shit about the kid after it is born-as these same individuals tend to cut funding to childcare, prenatal care, education, and children's healthcare programs.

If they really gave a shit out saving the kids life, barring catholics, they seldom object to making exceptions for rape victims. If they really cared about the kid, they would not punish it for being raped. Instead their behavior is more consistent with wanting to punish the slutty woman.

If you would have read this thread, as required, you will have noted that I conceded on this particular issue. Perhaps, you should go back and read first before engaging in conversation.

And this is a load of horseshit. Of course she will be drinking heavily after she finds out she is pregnant with a parasite she cannot abort.

If excessive drinking can result in a miscarriage then that would be reckless behavior...won't it?

And you know damn well that rapes in general are under-reported, and incest-rapes especially so.

What's your point? I was responding to a question. The question did not ask me to take into account other factors...

But staying in an abusive relationship is.

No, it's not. Domestic relationships aren't black and white like that. This is why domestic violence laws are written the way they are, and which is why police are required to make an arrest in domestic violence situations even if the victim doesn't want to press charges.

My point is that there are plenty of self-righteous individuals in positions of authority who are ready and willing to use that authority and a (possibly intentionally) poorly constructed law in order to cause harm to those they consider unclean.

And each and every one of them has been shot down. So, clearly you do not know all about Utah that you think you do...

[Alyrium Denryle]

If you would have read this thread, as required, you will have noted that I conceded on this particular issue. Perhaps, you should go back and read first before engaging in conversation.

Oh, I did. I read the thread as I wrote the response. I just liked that part too much to remove it. You are talking to the guy who yells into a microphone at abortion protesters that a lizard is worth more ethically than a human fetus. Throw me a bone here.

If excessive drinking can result in a miscarriage then that would be reckless behavior...won't it?

Only if you define the risk as unacceptable, and the fetus as having worth. My point is that it is unjust because they are doing their level best to reproductively enslave women by cutting off their legal options, and then charging them with murder if they take their rights into their own hands.

It is horseshit.

What's your point? I was responding to a question. The question did not ask me to take into account other factors...

The point was that parental notification laws that require the girl to file rape charges against her father in order to bypass them... are designed to, again, reproductively enslave women.

I know you dont agree with those.... but god damn they piss me off.

No, it's not. Domestic relationships aren't black and white like that. This is why domestic violence laws are written the way they are, and which is why police are required to make an arrest in domestic violence situations even if the victim doesn't want to press charges.

And in the case of someone who had a miscarriage, a DA with an axe to grind could make a woman's life hell. He could even get away with it for some time.

I will grant that the laws on the matter are not black and white, but the loophole is still there.

And each and every one of them has been shot down. So, clearly you do not know all about Utah that you think you do...

It is enough to make someone's life a living hell. Sure, they will lose on appeal... but it may not happen after the first victim. It can take a long time and lot of money to get a case though on appeal to a federal court, if you can get someone to hear the case. Hell, with our current supreme court makeup, they might even uphold it.

[Master of Ossus]

Only if you define the risk as unacceptable, and the fetus as having worth.

But that is legitimately within the purview of a legislature to determine. The legislature of a state is entitled to make value judgments after weighing complicated issues, and to codify its eventual findings in law.

My point is that it is unjust because they are doing their level best to reproductively enslave women by cutting off their legal options, and then charging them with murder if they take their rights into their own hands.

It is horseshit.

Only because you define it as such. I understand where you're coming from, but it's legitimately within a legislature's power and function to pass such a law. The views you espouse would be considered quite extreme by a significant fraction of society, including such conservative havens as California (which has a law stating that killing women who are obviously pregnant can constitute the sort of "special circumstances" required to warrant the death penalty). You can disagree with the law, and the legislature's codified values, but you can't say that it's not within their function to pass such laws.

The point was that parental notification laws that require the girl to file rape charges against her father in order to bypass them... are designed to, again, reproductively enslave women.

I know you dont agree with those.... but god damn they piss me off.

I agree, but the right response to this is to vote the bums out of office, and that doesn't require histrionics like arguing that Utah has criminalized miscarriages when in fact they have enacted a criminal statute which makes it criminal to recklessly cause oneself to have a miscarriage.

And in the case of someone who had a miscarriage, a DA with an axe to grind could make a woman's life hell. He could even get away with it for some time.

I will grant that the laws on the matter are not black and white, but the loophole is still there.

Not really, no. Any DA who would abuse the law for this purpose could just as easily abuse any criminal law requiring recklessness. Unless you want to argue that we shouldn't have recklessness as a state of mind justifying criminal laws, I fail to see how this law is more apt for absue than others.

It is enough to make someone's life a living hell. Sure, they will lose on appeal... but it may not happen after the first victim. It can take a long time and lot of money to get a case though on appeal to a federal court, if you can get someone to hear the case. Hell, with our current supreme court makeup, they might even uphold it.

But that is true with every criminal law. I also don't know why you think that an appeal on these grounds would ever go to the Supreme Court. This is a state law, remember?