Attack Of The Clones... Damnit.

[Patroklos]

In TPM when they were cutting through the bridge door on the trade fed ship it seemed pretty clear they had to use force on the sabre to cut.

[Bakustra]

@Eleas
Out of curiosity, how do Neeson's swordplay in TPM and the swordplay in the OT compare? I've heard good things about the choreography in ANH, but how do ESB and ROTJ hold up?

When it comes to the Tauntaun scene, people tend to use less force when butchering than when they are fighting. You don't want to slip and cut yourself, especially with a lightsaber.

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. To me (and I'm not an expert by any means), the fights in the original trilogy looked as if the lightsabers were being used like heavy two-handed swords. Very little use of the point, quite a lot of force behind blows, to the point where someone could be badly overbalanced if a blow missed... it's almost as if the choreography was not based on the idea of the blades being massless.

In the prequels, they go the other way. The fights are much less ponderous, with less hacking and hewing, which makes sense given that the swords are supposed to be nearly massless. But the catch is that they put in so much acrobatics and hyperkinetic movement that it undermines the sense that they are real swordfights. They look less like two men trying to kill each other and more like two men engaged in an elaborate ritual sword dance.

[Havok]

Holy shitballs Elfdart. You can't possibly be defending that gawd awful scene. And yeah they are extras, but as you said they are 'glorified' extras, which means they should have put some more time into their individual parts.

Seriously, why all the fucking CORNY ASS dramatics, when you have the way Mace does it, who just ignite his saber and stares at people. That is plenty 'I'm a Jedi, motherfucker.' without the ridiculous looking moves they had the extras attempting to pull off.

[Havok]

Oh yeah, as for the lock picking, Padme pulls the pick out of her belt before they cuff her up. She still picks the fucking lock with her mouth though.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I remember the first time watching that scene. The Power Rangers theme music kept playing in my head for some reason.

As for light-saber techniques, I recall reading in one of the visual guides that the beam itself creates some sort of center-of-balance issues. So while the blade is nearly weightless, it's still like trying to wield a gyrostabilizer, and a specific style has to be used to counter that.

[The Romulan Republic]

I actually liked Attack of the Clones, and consider it possibly my favorite of the Prequels. If nothing else, two things put it way ahead of Episode One: less Jar-Jar and no ten year old Anakin.

And while we're on the Padme binge, she's not exactly the brightest:

Anakin: "Yeah, I just got pissed and slaughtered a bunch of sand-people, innocent women and children included."
Padme: "That's alright, to be angry is to be human."

Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but if my paramour just committed impulsive mass-murder, that would raise a whoooole lot of red flags to me. At the very least I'd have a chat with his mentor about it. Impulsive mass murder, to me, would be a bad trait for someone in the position of a Jedi knight to have, when conceivably hundreds of thousands of lives can rest on a single Jedi's actions.

I agree. This scene is a serious flaw. That said, people will often make a lot of irrational excuses for those they care about. And his mother had just been brutally killed. A lot of people would lose control if that happened to them. Padme would know that.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I agree. This scene is a serious flaw. That said, people will often make a lot of irrational excuses for those they care about. And his mother had just been brutally killed. A lot of people would lose control if that happened to them. Padme would know that.

Yeah, but fuck those people. If someone goes on a killing spree involving innocents in maddened grief over a dead relative, any rational person would still agree that they need to be incarcerated for a very long time.

[Stark]

It would have been okay (dramatically) if it was EVER REFERRED TO AGAIN. If Padme ever said to her shrink 'yeah should I report him' or felt fear at his obvious lunacy for the rest of her life, or whatever. It's mentioned later, but it's like she seriously had no problem with it (which would be fine if she was massively racist).

[Eleas]

@Eleas
Out of curiosity, how do Neeson's swordplay in TPM and the swordplay in the OT compare? I've heard good things about the choreography in ANH, but how do ESB and ROTJ hold up?

Bearing in mind that I am pretty low on the totem pole here, Neeson's swordplay is stable, powerful, and elegant. Particularly on the walkway against Maul, his advance is deliberate and professional. I personally think most of his swordsmanship is beautiful to watch, and really looks like an experienced, sometimes even inspired swordsman.

Maul is not nearly so economical, but his extravagance is kept grounded by awe-inspiring footwork. The part where he binds Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's swords simultaneously is jaw-dropping.

ROTJ it was a while since I saw. I mainly remember the final assault by Luke on Vader. There, Luke almost abandons form entirely. His footwork is much like a bulldozer, and Vader's attempts at being clever are just brushed aside by Luke's fury. It works for me because it feels like Luke is relying solely on brute Force power and muscle in a relentless assault; his formal technique isn't yet ingrained enough to be maintained when he's filled with rage.

Vader's swordsmanship in ESB? On a technical level, it's a rare treat. Vader was played by Bob Anderson during those scenes, and he's a recognised sword master. It shows. Anderson magnificently embodies Vader: how he meets Luke's half-improvised flourishes with small movements of his own, not even deigning to counter attacks that would not connect. First, Vader demonstrates that he is physically superior by one-handed techniques (which are very difficult to pull off) and by employing his far greater bulk and strength. Gradually, his composed fighting style gives way to a savage bludgeoning that is very difficult for Luke to withstand. He shows glimpses of cunning throughout this, however; when he severs Luke's hand, it is by what I believe is a back-cut, something that would never work with a real blade, but which a lightsaber would be quite good at (even a double-edged sword would be hard-pressed to sever a limb with so little power behind it).

Key here is that the OT (I'd argue that ESB and ROTJ are best in this regard, but that is an opinion) took pains to reveal the personality of the fighters in the way they fought. This is also done well in parts of the prequels, but since there are far more and longer scenes of that kind, the parts where it fails becomes more noticeable, even with actors trained for it. For instance, I quite dislike the scene in ROTS between Palpatine and Windu - it becomes quite obvious that McDiarmid simply doesn't move properly, and that some scenes used stunt doubles; the result is largely awkward.

The arena "actors" weren't trained for it. They could have been replaced with prepubescent cheerleaders, and it would only have improved the scene.

EDIT: Almost forgot, there was something I watched earlier with Qui-Gon, and it's tangentially relevant to Havok's "bad motherfucker" point. Qui-Gon during TPM is largely conservative, calm, and stable, but he does pull off a few badass moves. The key is that he does them effortlessly. When he and Obi-Wan jump from the catwalk to free the queen's entourage, watch him cut down a battle droid, then switch off his lightsaber in the same motion as he puts it away. He does it like it's nothing. That's badass.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, but fuck those people. If someone goes on a killing spree involving innocents in maddened grief over a dead relative, any rational person would still agree that they need to be incarcerated for a very long time.

I agree. This scene really doesn't paint Padme in a good light, for all the reasons you and Stark have mentioned.

[Patroklos]

While I know George Lucus would not agree, the idea that powerful politicians on a galactic scale would care about individual beings is stupid anyway. She was royalty, master of a planet herself at one time, currently embroiled in events that put trillions in the balance. Realistically someone in her position and upbringing shouldn't give a damn about the fate of some outlaw proles on a backwater planet of no consequence.

Eh, thats what you get for shoehorning modern real world sensibilities into personalities into character types and enviroments that don't fit.

[Bakustra]

@Eleas:
Hmm, that does make sense, especially since Ray Park was given the role entirely for his martial arts abilities. He also did the fight choreography for TPM, if I remember correctly. Rewatching ANH, I noted that Obi-Wan does do a little spin in his duel with Vader, but it's a brief, momentary affair.

While I know George Lucus would not agree, the idea that powerful politicians on a galactic scale would care about individual beings is stupid anyway. She was royalty, master of a planet herself at one time, currently embroiled in events that put trillions in the balance. Realistically someone in her position and upbringing shouldn't give a damn about the fate of some outlaw proles on a backwater planet of no consequence.

Eh, thats what you get for shoehorning modern real world sensibilities into personalities into character types and enviroments that don't fit.

Why exactly? Are you claiming that human attitudes would change markedly in a galactic society? After all, there are people today that sympathize with "outlaw proles in a backwater country of no consequence" aka everybody who's given money to help Kyrgyzstan or other small undeveloped countries. The idea that people wouldn't care about mass-murder because of being part of the ruling elite of a galactic society is essentially saying that in the future only sociopaths would rule. Of course, in SW nobody would care if it were droids, but Tusken Raiders are generally recognized as full sapients.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

While I know George Lucus would not agree, the idea that powerful politicians on a galactic scale would care about individual beings is stupid anyway. She was royalty, master of a planet herself at one time, currently embroiled in events that put trillions in the balance. Realistically someone in her position and upbringing shouldn't give a damn about the fate of some outlaw proles on a backwater planet of no consequence.

Eh, thats what you get for shoehorning modern real world sensibilities into personalities into character types and enviroments that don't fit.

It's as Bakustra already said, and I'll add to it: Because if someone's a murderous sociopath on a personal scale, it's all the more reason to believe they'll be a murderous sociopath on a much grander scale, when the disconnect is even greater. And, surprise surprise, it's proven true as Anakin turns into Vader who regularly kills people by the handful and doesn't bat an eye as his higher up destroys an entire planet just to make a point. There's a reason criminal histories disqualify people from public office (Well, *should* disqualify people from public office, the corruption of politics notwithstanding).

[Elfdart]

Are you seriously claiming that twirling around is essential to the functioning of a lightsaber? Do tell how you came to this downright amazing conclusion. While you're at it, explain how making glancing cuts is an effective use of an edged weapon, particularly against opponents that do not bleed.

Lightsabers are used to parry incoming gunshots (I know this because I actually watched the movies), so twirling the weapon would make sense.

When it comes to fanciful weapons, the lightsaber is not an incredibly arcane one. It is a straight-bladed sword, about one meter in length, and we can conclude certain aspects of its proper operation from that. Its lack of guards or hilt adds further details about its proper use, and observing the weapon's characteristics when in use gives us our final set of clues. If we saw Stormtroopers shooting their blasters "gangsta-style", or holding them upside-down, would you try to claim that such is essential for shooting a blaster properly, especially when we see everybody else shoot them differently?

Stormtroopers fire almost exclusively from the hip in the OT and seldom aim their weapons like rifles.

Holy shitballs Elfdart. You can't possibly be defending that gawd awful scene. And yeah they are extras, but as you said they are 'glorified' extras, which means they should have put some more time into their individual parts.

I'm not "defending" anything. I thought the "watch me flick on my lightsaber" bit was hokey even for a Star Wars movie. But it lasted only a few seconds, wasn't important at all and isn't worth the amount of Nerd Rage that has erupted from self-proclaimed "experts" on real-life swords -weapons that have nothing to do with lightsabers.

Seriously, why all the fucking CORNY ASS dramatics, when you have the way Mace does it, who just ignite his saber and stares at people. That is plenty 'I'm a Jedi, motherfucker.' without the ridiculous looking moves they had the extras attempting to pull off.

Since George Lucas insisted on adhering to Chekhov's Gun, it is mentioned earlier in the film that the Jedi are way too sure of themselves, are arrogant, and are primed for a fall (again, this is what you notice when you're paying attention to the plot, characters and story rather than how an extra grips a prop). Yoda even looks at Mace Windu and Ob-Wan and says this is true for the older, more experienced Jedi as well as the younger ones. This would lead a moviegoer who doesn't keep his head up his ass 24/7 to think Windu and Obi-Wan and other Jedi were going to foolishly walk right into an obvious trap. Now, what happens in the movie? First Obi-Wan, then Anakin, then Windu and scores of other Jedi walk right into Dooku's trap*.

Why would they strike the pose? In universe, it's probably to intimidate miscreants into submission. In a full-scale battle it's useless and rather stupid, but as Mace Windu said in the movie, the Jedi are police and not soldiers.


* On top of that, Mace Windu leads his fellow Jedi Knights into yet another trap when they try to bust Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith.

[Bakustra]

Are you seriously claiming that twirling around is essential to the functioning of a lightsaber? Do tell how you came to this downright amazing conclusion. While you're at it, explain how making glancing cuts is an effective use of an edged weapon, particularly against opponents that do not bleed.

Lightsabers are used to parry incoming gunshots (I know this because I actually watched the movies), so twirling the weapon would make sense.

Yeah, that's why they do so in pure swordfights, right? Furthermore, you ignored the question of how making glancing cuts against an opponent who does not bleed or take any other harm from the cut is an effective use. Of course, this ignores the other criticisms Eleas brought up, but let's not make this too hard on you, shall we?

When it comes to fanciful weapons, the lightsaber is not an incredibly arcane one. It is a straight-bladed sword, about one meter in length, and we can conclude certain aspects of its proper operation from that. Its lack of guards or hilt adds further details about its proper use, and observing the weapon's characteristics when in use gives us our final set of clues. If we saw Stormtroopers shooting their blasters "gangsta-style", or holding them upside-down, would you try to claim that such is essential for shooting a blaster properly, especially when we see everybody else shoot them differently?

Stormtroopers fire almost exclusively from the hip in the OT and seldom aim their weapons like rifles.

What a stunning rebuttal! I am humbled and awed that you managed to ignore the actual point of my post (ps lucky thing stormtroopers aren't carrying rifles when they're shooting in the OT, isn't it) in favor of an imaginary one that you can defend easily. Well done indeed.

Let's make this even more obvious, for the benefit of your cast-iron skull. Would you claim that a stormtrooper's blaster was incapable of being improved upon if it required the user to play cat's cradle to fire the thing? Or would you again say that "it's not a real weapon, therefore nothing about the real world applies" and once again demonstrate that you have some unfathomable urge to violently criticize the premise of the forum. Good luck with those windmills, Don.

[Kurgan]

Anakin rides the space cow

That should be on a bumper sticker next to "Han Shot First" and "God is my co-pilot"

[Shroom Man 777]

Man, Jedi fucking suck. They all get their asses handed to them by a bunch of slow moving retards and are only saved by Yoda+Guns. More civilized age my ass.

Oh no, Hav. It's because of the Shroud of the Dark Side. If it weren't for that, they would've used TK to wipe all those droids out. Just like how without the Shroud of the Dark Side, Obi Wan would've used precog to utterly own Jango Fett in a... fistfight.

[Kurgan]

Bob Brown (aka B Squared), iirc, was with a handful of folks who were actually trained in Kendo and/or fencing and were hired as extras to be in the Geonosis Arena scenes. But their stuff was cut from the final picture in favor of flashier, but more amateur extras. The guy also used to run a site analyzing the dimensions of the Millennium Falcon and how it varied from one movie to the next with massive attention to detail. His commentary on the EU I thought was particularly biting and fun to read.

The folks who got kept, displayed less practical forms, and we can blame the editor(s) for favoring their antics... but we can also blame some of it on the SFX team since they after all decided where to put the blaster shots and droids (being all digital effects).

[Elfdart]

Lightsabers are used to parry incoming gunshots (I know this because I actually watched the movies), so twirling the weapon would make sense.

Yeah, that's why they do so in pure swordfights, right?

What part of "lightsabers are used to parry incoming gunshots" are you too fucking retarded to grasp? Real swords are not used to deflect gunshots.

Furthermore, you ignored the question of how making glancing cuts against an opponent who does not bleed or take any other harm from the cut is an effective use. Of course, this ignores the other criticisms Eleas brought up, but let's not make this too hard on you, shall we?

Yes Virginia, Heathcliffe's stupidity is contagious. A glancing cut with a lightsaber is deadly to man and machine because unlike real swords, lightsabers can cut through almost anything. On top of that, every part of the blade is deadly (there's no flat like in real swords).

Stormtroopers fire almost exclusively from the hip in the OT and seldom aim their weapons like rifles.

What a stunning rebuttal!

I thought so.

What a stunning rebuttal! I am humbled and awed that you managed to ignore the actual point of my post

Your post had no point. No, nerd rage doesn't count.

Let's make this even more obvious, for the benefit of your cast-iron skull. Would you claim that a stormtrooper's blaster was incapable of being improved upon if it required the user to play cat's cradle to fire the thing? Or would you again say that "it's not a real weapon, therefore nothing about the real world applies" and once again demonstrate that you have some unfathomable urge to violently criticize the premise of the forum. Good luck with those windmills, Don.

The blasters in Star Wars are much more analogous to real-life guns than lightsabers are to real swords. You point and pull the trigger. They have no other properties. Lightsabres can be used to cut through doors and deflect enemy fire -things swords can't do.

You are one dumb twat.

And while we're on the Padme binge, she's not exactly the brightest:

Anakin: "Yeah, I just got pissed and slaughtered a bunch of sand-people, innocent women and children included."
Padme: "That's alright, to be angry is to be human."

Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but if my paramour just committed impulsive mass-murder, that would raise a whoooole lot of red flags to me. At the very least I'd have a chat with his mentor about it. Impulsive mass murder, to me, would be a bad trait for someone in the position of a Jedi knight to have, when conceivably hundreds of thousands of lives can rest on a single Jedi's actions.

It would have been okay (dramatically) if it was EVER REFERRED TO AGAIN. If Padme ever said to her shrink 'yeah should I report him' or felt fear at his obvious lunacy for the rest of her life, or whatever. It's mentioned later, but it's like she seriously had no problem with it (which would be fine if she was massively racist).

Then I hope you stay away from the Godfather movies because Kaye sticks with Michael Corleone when she knows he's a mobster and after she finds out he had just killed his own brother-in-law and a bunch of other people while attending the christening of his own nephew (the son of the man he had strangled). She's still loyal to him in the second movie until it's almost over. At that point she aborts his son and tells him, he calls her a cunt, beats her up and then kills his own brother. Surely she would have nothing to do with such a brute, right? But in the third movie, there she is by Michael's side once again.

But then, what do Mario Puzo and Francis Coppola know about story and characters?

[Formless]

What part of "lightsabers are used to parry incoming gunshots" are you too fucking retarded to grasp? Real swords are not used to deflect gunshots.

And there are, what, and handful of the morons left when the *angelic chorus* CLONE TROOPERS */angelic chorus* arrive to pull their asses out of the fire? Guess all that twirling and blaster blocking did fuck all for the Jedi, didn't it?

[Elfdart]

What part of "lightsabers are used to parry incoming gunshots" are you too fucking retarded to grasp? Real swords are not used to deflect gunshots.

And there are, what, and handful of the morons left when the *angelic chorus* CLONE TROOPERS */angelic chorus* arrive to pull their asses out of the fire? Guess all that twirling and blaster blocking did fuck all for the Jedi, didn't it?

Without their ability to deflect blaster bolts, they'd all be dead. As they say in Kentucky, it's all relative.

[Stark]

Then I hope you stay away from the Godfather movies because Kaye sticks with Michael Corleone when she knows he's a mobster and after she finds out he had just killed his own brother-in-law and a bunch of other people while attending the christening of his own nephew (the son of the man he had strangled). She's still loyal to him in the second movie until it's almost over. At that point she aborts his son and tells him, he calls her a cunt, beats her up and then kills his own brother. Surely she would have nothing to do with such a brute, right? But in the third movie, there she is by Michael's side once again.

But then, what do Mario Puzo and Francis Coppola know about story and characters?

LOL yeah you're right, a dramatic use of battered wives and mafia family politics in the immigrant experience is EXACTLY THE SAME as Star Wars.

By this hilarious logic, if a movie ever shows any sort of reaction to anything, it must be okay all the time. Anyone who can watch the Godfather series and think that Kaye is some kind of forgiving saint is a retard.

I saw a movie once where people split up when under threat by a single murderer. Thus, it's always okay to do that, even in totally different circumstances.

That you're so stupid you missed the part about 'being referred to again' is just golden. Nobody said she should split up with him; simply that it is totally ignored, and Padme is continued to be presented as a bastion of freedom and morality rather than an emotional cripple with codependency issues. Uh oh!

[adam_grif]

I understand all of the AotC hating here, but I'm just going to disagree that it was the worst of the series. I think it's better than TPM consistently with one exception, the godawful romance scenes (which are the worst scenes in the series, bar none).

[Havok]

Nah. AOTC is the worst. By far. As I said, the score is awful. The dialogue is awful. The actual acting is pretty bad. The character interactions are bad. The editing is way off, the quick zooms are completely out of place. The Clones look weird. The story itself is completely stupid.

At least TPM feels like a movie. AOTC feels amateurish.