Firefighters making too much money?

[ShadowDragon8685]

I realize you're a dipshit, but is this sort of infantile chest beating really necessary?

And I realize you're a moron, but how else should one compare the results of a private sector service with their public sector service counterpart?

I'm going to wager you didn't actually do more than read a few snippets of the OP and barge in for a cheap tough-guy +1.

He's complaining that firefighters are overpaid. The crux of my argument is that frankly, it is reasonably impossible to overpay firefighters. As someone was so kind to point out: Fires and explosions. Even police officers most often die in traffic, not in shoot-outs. Other than soldiers, I don't imagine there's a profession which actually faces a statistically-higher chance of suffering immediate, dramatic death when actually confronting the dangers of one's job.

[General Zod]

And I realize you're a moron, but how else should one compare the results of a private sector service with their public sector service counterpart?

How about by not advocating violence like an inbred knuckle-dragging mouthbreather?

He's complaining that firefighters are overpaid.

Had you bothered reading the follow-up article he wrote that was posted later in this very thread, you'd realize he wasn't complaining about firefighters in general. He was complaining about firefighters in a very specific location, compared to other firefighters. But then again you'd know this if you had actually read more than a few snippets from the OP.

[Isolder74]

Which he really hasn't given us. the best he's done is put up the average salary of firefighters that he's citing. So this includes the top of the scale skewing the numbers. It would be like taking the average salary at Microsoft and not taking into account the much higher salary of the CEO.

I'm just nitpicking at this point, but most salary figures aren't going to be averaged out by company. Usually they're averaged out by job titles and descriptions, so simply averaging the salaries for just firefighters isn't that bad of a way to do it, though I don't doubt his figures aren't exactly accurate. Suppose for example, you want the average salary ranges for entry-level accountants in a given region. You're not going to include an Executive's salary, and you're probably not going to include the salaries of accountants who manage other accountants. But within the same paygrade you'll get a fair bit of fluctation depending on any number of factors like bonuses, levels of education, etc. At least that's how a lot of HR people do things, at any rate.

Nit pick if you want but I am trying to work my mind around where this guy is getting his numbers from. In the post above mine, you can see a much different more reasonable salarys listed. So where is this guy getting his massively higher figures from?

For zip code 94503 (American Canyon) it gives me $33,773 to $56,288
For zip code 10464 (The Bronx) it gives me $36,057 to $60,095
For zip code 20121 (my zip code, a city of about 50,000) it gives me $32,973 to $54,954

Median income for American Canyon males is $42,358.

I'm not really getting outraged here.

[General Zod]

Nit pick if you want but I am trying to work my mind around where this guy is getting his numbers from. In the post above mine, you can see a much different more reasonable salarys listed. So where is this guy getting his massively higher figures from?

Well, the numbers Eion posted are from the site I linked to, which isn't going to be totally representative of every salary possible, but it can give you a pretty good indicator. Incidentally, a bit of googling turns up the following:

http://www.americancanyoneagle.com/arti ... 711973.txt (more in link)

The pension system has come under fire for being financially unsustainable. According to Californians for Pension Reform, a political committee dedicated to placing a public pension reform initiative on the ballot, more than 6,000 retired state employees — public safety and non-public safety retirees — earn more than $100,000 a year. Of those, about 70 work in Napa County, in various agencies, including Napa State Hospital, Napa County, and the city of Napa.

While California’s public agencies pay between $4 billion and $5 billion per year into the fund, the pension system has sustained investment losses, according to the nonpartisan California Legislative Analyst’s Office.

In American Canyon, the firefighters’ union began to receive pension benefits under the “3 percent at 50” rule in 2006. But as the economy struggles, the trend is return to less generous benefits, Weeks and others said this week.

“I still think that 3 percent at 55 is a good benefit,” Weeks said Tuesday, who does not foresee problems in recruiting good candidates.

“It’s not all about pay and benefits,” he said. “There are a lot of people out there who want that opportunity to serve.”

During Tuesday’s meeting, Vallejo activist Robert Schussel, who lives in a city where public safety personnel pensions have been blamed for bankrupting the city, urged the American Canyon fire district board to put in place more draconian measures.

It's not just some random guy with an opinion that thinks they're being overcompensated.

[Flagg]

Wait, some fucking cunt in a business that produces nothing but a luxury item is complaining about how much people who run into burning buildings to save women, pets, and children, oftentimes dying in the process, get paid? He's either got the biggest fucking balls on Earth or really wants his business to burn down.

[General Zod]

Wait, some fucking cunt in a business that produces nothing but a luxury item is complaining about how much people who run into burning buildings to save women, pets, and children, oftentimes dying in the process, get paid? He's either got the biggest fucking balls on Earth or really wants his business to burn down.

It's not just him that's complaining though. California has a notorious problem of paying its public servants too much money. (lol budget crisis).

[JCady]

In California, work past 8 hrs in a day is paid at 1.5x your regular rate. Work past 12 hrs is paid at double time.

There's an exception for EMTs and firefighters on 24-hour shifts, actually. If we're running 12-hour shifts we make normal overtime, but if we're working 24-hour shifts we get overtime based on exceeding 40 hours a week, *not* on a daily basis.

[eion]

In California, work past 8 hrs in a day is paid at 1.5x your regular rate. Work past 12 hrs is paid at double time.

There's an exception for EMTs and firefighters on 24-hour shifts, actually. If we're running 12-hour shifts we make normal overtime, but if we're working 24-hour shifts we get overtime based on exceeding 40 hours a week, *not* on a daily basis.

In other words if you work two 24-hour shifts a week you get 8 hours of overtime?

[JCady]

In California, work past 8 hrs in a day is paid at 1.5x your regular rate. Work past 12 hrs is paid at double time.

There's an exception for EMTs and firefighters on 24-hour shifts, actually. If we're running 12-hour shifts we make normal overtime, but if we're working 24-hour shifts we get overtime based on exceeding 40 hours a week, *not* on a daily basis.

In other words if you work two 24-hour shifts a week you get 8 hours of overtime?

Correct. When I was working for AMR (private ambulance company), the way our shifts worked was that if you were on a 24-hour shift you were assigned two shifts a week and if you were on a 12-hour shift you were assigned four shifts a week, but you had near-total freedom to trade shifts with other employees as long as you gave dispatch 24 hours notice that you were switching off, plus you could volunteer to pick up extra shifts. So if I was on a 24-hour rig and I felt like taking three shifts, I could grab an open shift (there are generally open shifts on most days because the company likes to have 'extra' rigs on the street to reduce downtime when a unit is out of service), or if there isn't an open shift I can call up someone and ask him if he wants a free day off. Alternatively, if I wanted a day off, I could call up a buddy and ask him to swap shifts with me or take my shift.

By the way, 12-hour shifts are usually 14+ hours and 24-hour shifts are usually 26+ hours. This is because you're NOT allowed to go off duty until dispatch clears you -- which is usually one to two hours after your scheduled off because of how badly the system is overloaded -- and then you still have to drive the rig back to base, check it back in, complete and turn in your run sheets for the day, and then clock out.

[Alphawolf55]

Wait, some fucking cunt in a business that produces nothing but a luxury item is complaining about how much people who run into burning buildings to save women, pets, and children, oftentimes dying in the process, get paid? He's either got the biggest fucking balls on Earth or really wants his business to burn down.

Did you read any of the correlating information or is your only comment going to be "HOW DARE SOMEONE QUESTION THE SALARY OF A PUBLIC EMPLOYEE WHETHER IT'S TOO MUCH OR NOTS WHEN WE HAVE AN UNDERFUNDED SCHOOL SYSTEM, HIGHWAY AND SEWAGE LEAKAGE"

[Flagg]

Wait, some fucking cunt in a business that produces nothing but a luxury item is complaining about how much people who run into burning buildings to save women, pets, and children, oftentimes dying in the process, get paid? He's either got the biggest fucking balls on Earth or really wants his business to burn down.

Did you read any of the correlating information or is your only comment going to be "HOW DARE SOMEONE QUESTION THE SALARY OF A PUBLIC EMPLOYEE WHETHER IT'S TOO MUCH OR NOTS WHEN WE HAVE AN UNDERFUNDED SCHOOL SYSTEM, HIGHWAY AND SEWAGE LEAKAGE"

Eat a dick, shitnose. I'm saying how dare some borderline useless tiny penised cunt (like the one who shot his load into your mother for $.50) whine about the fact that people who do the single most important public safety service make more money than they'd like. Or do you think legislators earn the $100+k they get for jerking off on the floor 10 months out of the year for the media to suck up their ejaculate with straws?

[Alphawolf55]

One, it's arguable if Fire-fighters do the single most important public service in the country. Two, even if they did the most important public service jobs that doesn't mean people should automatically give them a blank check and pay them whatever they desire. But hey why expect a dickless maladjusted retard like yourself to actually read shit so he can actually come up with good reasons whether or not they are overpaid.Even better why expect your fucking retarded self to realize that as a citizen of his county, he's perfectly justified in wondering if they're overpaid. I mean whether he's right or not doesn't change the fact that fire fighters shouldn't be on some golden pedestal where you can't question them at all.

Oh and I love how you believe that if one group of Government employees are overpaid, it justifes whether any other group might be.

[eion]

One, it's arguable if Fire-fighters do the single most important public service in the country. Two, even if they did the most important public service jobs that doesn't mean people should automatically give them a blank check and pay them whatever they desire. But hey why expect a dickless maladjusted retard like yourself to actually read shit so he can actually come up with good reasons whether or not they are overpaid.Even better why expect your fucking retarded self to realize that as a citizen of his county, he's perfectly justified in wondering if they're overpaid. I mean whether he's right or not doesn't change the fact that fire fighters shouldn't be on some golden pedestal where you can't question them at all.

Oh and I love how you believe that if one group of Government employees are overpaid, it justifes whether any other group might be.

Oy. Alpha, can you find a source for the guy's claim that the average firefighter in American Canyon, or anywhere in California, is making "$ 164,000 including incentive pay and overtime" because I can't. Nor can I find how he defines an "average firefighter" is that the average of all the entry-level firefighters? Or is he averaging the entire department, which would obviously give him a very skewed figure.

Also, means are not always the best tool for comparing salaries because they skew easily, so most censuses and other surveys use median in their reports.

He just doesn't come across as someone who's done any serious research on the subject; it just sounds like a typical "letter to the editor" from another self-informed taxpayer who thinks his taxes are being wasted, and before we start taking sides in this it’d be nice if the facts we’re arguing about are indeed true, don’t you agree?

[General Zod]

One, it's arguable if Fire-fighters do the single most important public service in the country. Two, even if they did the most important public service jobs that doesn't mean people should automatically give them a blank check and pay them whatever they desire. But hey why expect a dickless maladjusted retard like yourself to actually read shit so he can actually come up with good reasons whether or not they are overpaid.Even better why expect your fucking retarded self to realize that as a citizen of his county, he's perfectly justified in wondering if they're overpaid. I mean whether he's right or not doesn't change the fact that fire fighters shouldn't be on some golden pedestal where you can't question them at all.

Oh and I love how you believe that if one group of Government employees are overpaid, it justifes whether any other group might be.

Oy. Alpha, can you find a source for the guy's claim that the average firefighter in American Canyon, or anywhere in California, is making "$ 164,000 including incentive pay and overtime" because I can't. Nor can I find how he defines an "average firefighter" is that the average of all the entry-level firefighters? Or is he averaging the entire department, which would obviously give him a very skewed figure.

Also, means are not always the best tool for comparing salaries because they skew easily, so most censuses and other surveys use median in their reports.

He just doesn't come across as someone who's done any serious research on the subject; it just sounds like a typical "letter to the editor" from another self-informed taxpayer who thinks his taxes are being wasted, and before we start taking sides in this it’d be nice if the facts we’re arguing about are indeed true, don’t you agree?

http://www.firehire.com/Consortium%20Te ... on_job.htm

Monthly Salary:
$5,271.00 - $6,918.00

Not exactly 164k, but for an entry level job that's still a bit high compared to other salaries for Firefighters in the California region.

[Darth Wong]

Question: how does one determine whether firefighters are overpaid or underpaid?

There seem to be two competing methods being promoted here:

1) Supply and demand. If people are vying for firefighter spots and routinely being turned away (which is apparently the case, as it is with many public-service jobs), then it would appear that they're being overpaid. If, on the other hand, they have trouble acquiring and retaining personnel, then they're being underpaid.

2) Moral justice. If people feel that a firefighter deserves higher pay for some moral reason, then it is hard to justify cutting back their pay using simple supply and demand reasoning.

Personally, I think it would be really interesting to live in a world where salary is determined by moral justice rather than supply and demand. You certainly wouldn't have basketball players getting $120 million 5-year contracts, or the Aetna CEO raking in $24 million in 2008 alone. But that is not the world we live in, and I'm not sure people are consistent when they propose pay scales based on moral justice.

[General Zod]

Question: how does one determine whether firefighters are overpaid or underpaid?

There seem to be two competing methods being promoted here:

1) Supply and demand. If people are vying for firefighter spots and routinely being turned away (which is apparently the case, as it is with many public-service jobs), then it would appear that they're being overpaid. If, on the other hand, they have trouble acquiring and retaining personnel, then they're being underpaid.

2) Moral justice. If people feel that a firefighter deserves higher pay for some moral reason, then it is hard to justify cutting back their pay using simple supply and demand reasoning.

Personally, I think it would be really interesting to live in a world where salary is determined by moral justice rather than supply and demand. You certainly wouldn't have basketball players getting $120 million 5-year contracts, or the Aetna CEO raking in $24 million in 2008 alone. But that is not the world we live in, and I'm not sure people are consistent when they propose pay scales based on moral justice.

Wouldn't the police and emergency medical services be morally justified in salaries at least as much as firefighters though? Since they're all being paid out of the state funds, how would you determine which one is worth more?

[eion]

http://www.firehire.com/Consortium%20Te ... on_job.htm

Monthly Salary:
$5,271.00 - $6,918.00

Not exactly 164k, but for an entry level job that's still a bit high compared to other salaries for Firefighters in the California region.

Well. They only have 17 paid personnel. For all their fires operating out of one station. That gives them 3 - 6 firefighters on duty if they work two 24 shifts a week with an average of 3.7 response per day. I obviously think they're working more than that, which means more overtime.

While it might seem nice to grouse about overpaid firefighters, the simple fact may be it is cheaper to overpay 17 firefighters working overtime than to hire 10 more and pay everyone less.

I'd like to see how those numbers compare in other similarly sized cities (American Canyon has a listed population of 16,268 in 2009), but that seems like not enough firefighters. I would suspect that there is a volunteer component too.

[Alphawolf55]

That's only because of benefits, if you restructured those, it might be possible, especially if we finally get sane-health reform.

[eion]

That's only because of benefits, if you restructured those, it might be possible, especially if we finally get sane-health reform.

Well yes, benefits are an issue, but to step outside firefighting for a minute: if you have 25 full time employees each expecting at least 32 hours a week then you have to schedule a minimum of 800 hours of payroll for a week, even on weeks when you're slow. Whereas if you have 15 Full time employees you only need 480 hours minimum a week, but can crank it up easily to 600 per week with no overtime.

[Liberty]

The U.S. govt puts out an "Occupational Outlook Handbook" each year with general educational requirements and average wages, etc, for just about every occupation. Here is their entry on firefighters: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos329.htm#oes_links

Here is a relevant section:

Earnings About this section

Median annual wages of fire fighters were $44,260 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $31,180 and $58,440. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $22,440, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,210. Median annual wages were $44,800 in local government, $45,610 in the Federal Government, $25,300 in other support services, and $37,870 in State governments.

Median annual wages of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $67,440 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $53,820 and $86,330. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $40,850, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $108,930. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned a median of about $69,000 a year.

According to the International City-County Management Association, average salaries in 2008 for sworn full-time positions were as follows:

Position Minimum annual base salary Maximum annual base salary
Fire chief $78,672 $104,780
Deputy chief 69,166 88,571
Battalion chief 66,851 81,710
Assistant fire chief 65,691 83,748
Fire captain 60,605 72,716
Fire lieutenant 50,464 60,772
Engineer 48,307 62,265

Fire fighters who average more than a certain number of work hours per week are required to be paid overtime. The threshold is determined by the department. Fire fighters often work extra shifts to maintain minimum staffing levels and during special emergencies.

In 2008, 66 percent of all fire fighters were union members or covered by a union contract. Fire fighters receive benefits that usually include medical and liability insurance, vacation and sick leave, and some paid holidays. Almost all fire departments provide protective clothing (helmets, boots, and coats) and breathing apparatus, and many also provide dress uniforms. Fire fighters generally are covered by pension plans, often offering retirement at half pay after 25 years of service or if the individual is disabled in the line of duty.