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Pint0 Xtreme wrote:What's wrong with re-using a proven formula? Mass Effect 2 didn't introduce anything fundamentally different from Mass Effect 1. It still didn't stop it from being a great game. The further you move away from that formula, the more you risk breaking the system.

"Breaking the system" when attempting to innovate is what innovation is about. You can't slavishly adhere to a formula and then talk about your blistering originality. Well, apparently Bioware can.

I don't really think they were showing off story content as much as they were demonstrating the medium at which the story is being delivered. What I got out of it was: "this game is KOTOR Online". To be frank, it's the only reason why it's captured my attention.

Fair enough. I personally see it as showing how awesome the story-driven things are - which they did harp on about in the context of what was shown, to my mind - but I'm not about to claim my impression must trump yours.

Yes, it's clearly an admission of incompetence (in regards to story telling) from existing MMO developers, not from Bioware. They are promoting themselves as a remedy.

And while presenting their vaunted remedy they make mistakes basic enough to demonstrate zero knowledge of Star Wars, a problem that could have been averted by simply viewing the relevant entry on Wookieepedia. Their proposed panacea rings hollow for another reason: within the strictures they set up, adding single-player like party storylines is functionally identical to the techniques used in games like ME and KotOR. The difference is a simple question of volume, not innovation.

If you can summarize what the Devs have been saying in one sentence, it would be this: We're making KOTOR multiplayer. Quite honestly, I don't know why you think they have no idea how to tell a story. The last I checked, their most successful titles were all story based games and they all were very satisfying to play. I have a bit more confidence in their ability to capture good story telling. It has nothing to do with what they're selling - I just need to point to KOTOR, Mass Effect and Dragon Age as clear examples of their competence in that field.

Except there's nothing to suggest this team have actually produced the above games. All I have seen of their storytelling ability was the Deceived trailer, and it was complete and utter crap - a hollow, fanservice-bloated B-movie trailer devoid of any emotional impact. The fact that they managed to fuck over canon multiple times during those few short moments were just icing on the failcake.

You're insane if you think the story telling of The Force Unleashed is even at all comparable to Knights of the Old Republic.

Luckily, I did not say anything of the sort. Knights of the Old Republic managed to be respectful towards canon. Your less-than-clever attempt to put words in my mouth is noted, however.

Eleas wrote:"Breaking the system" when attempting to innovate is what innovation is about. You can't slavishly adhere to a formula and then talk about your blistering originality. Well, apparently Bioware can.

What claim of blistering originality are you whining like a baby about?

And while presenting their vaunted remedy they make mistakes basic enough to demonstrate zero knowledge of Star Wars, a problem that could have been averted by simply viewing the relevant entry on Wookieepedia. Their proposed panacea rings hollow for another reason: within the strictures they set up, adding single-player like party storylines is functionally identical to the techniques used in games like ME and KotOR. The difference is a simple question of volume, not innovation.

Except there's nothing to suggest this team have actually produced the above games. All I have seen of their storytelling ability was the Deceived trailer, and it was complete and utter crap - a hollow, fanservice-bloated B-movie trailer devoid of any emotional impact. The fact that they managed to fuck over canon multiple times during those few short moments were just icing on the failcake.

You're insane if you think the story telling of The Force Unleashed is even at all comparable to Knights of the Old Republic.

Luckily, I did not say anything of the sort. Knights of the Old Republic managed to be respectful towards canon. Your less-than-clever attempt to put words in my mouth is noted, however.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that the team is violating Star Wars canon or is devoid of Star Wars knowledge. The fact that they're using character archetypes as the basis of player characters is not indicative of zero character deviation nor does it reinforce the amusing unsubstantiated claim that they're going to make a world of "OMG, Boba Fett clones!". Just because people want and can play characters similar to their favorite heroes/villains does not mean they will end up playing exactly those characters despite your insistent whining.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:

Eleas wrote:"Breaking the system" when attempting to innovate is what innovation is about. You can't slavishly adhere to a formula and then talk about your blistering originality. Well, apparently Bioware can.

What claim of blistering originality are you whining like a baby about?

If there's whining, it's from the creature humping the leg of Bioware and hoping for a scratch on the head. That would be you, by the way. Instead of shrill desperation, you may wish produce a coherent argument. Either Bioware is claiming their approach will save MMO from themselves (as you said), or Bioware is not claiming they want to be original at all (which you have also claimed).

I've seen no evidence to suggest that the team is violating Star Wars canon or is devoid of Star Wars knowledge.

<snip>

Then you have either not bothered to read my arguments, or failed to understand them. Either way, that makes you unworthy of debate on the subject, as does the dishonesty I pointed out earlier.

General Schatten wrote:

Eleas wrote:Not to belabour the point, but I suspect this is also one reason why the women of this game all seem to look like cartoonified pornstars.

What the fuck are you even going on about? Let's compare.

Oh, by all means do let's compare. We essentially compare a DDD cup to a DD cup and almost complete nudity to only partial nudity. To you, apparently, this holds some sort of meaning beyond the fact that it's more of the same shit, only slightly less steaming.

Which is of course a complete fucking red herring, and a piss-poor one at that. We're - or at least, I was - talking about the game needing to be tenuously connected to Star Wars. I appreciate you raising the salient point of the women looking like strippers instead of whores. I'm sure that's a meaningful observation on some level, if only to the clinically retarded.

Eleas wrote:

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:

Eleas wrote:"Breaking the system" when attempting to innovate is what innovation is about. You can't slavishly adhere to a formula and then talk about your blistering originality. Well, apparently Bioware can.

What claim of blistering originality are you whining like a baby about?

If there's whining, it's from the creature humping the leg of Bioware and hoping for a scratch on the head. That would be you, by the way. Instead of shrill desperation, you may wish produce a coherent argument. Either Bioware is claiming their approach will save MMO from themselves (as you said), or Bioware is not claiming they want to be original at all (which you have also claimed).

You're a fucking idiot. You're complaining about the lack of originality when the entire time, the primary aim of The Old Republic is to implement their existing story system into an MMO. The "innovative" part is the integration of two existing but different systems, not the creation of something revolutionary. But apparently, you're expecting some something entirely different and chastising the developers for not delivering a system that they never promised to begin with.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that the team is violating Star Wars canon or is devoid of Star Wars knowledge.

<snip>

Then you have either not bothered to read my arguments, or failed to understand them. Either way, that makes you unworthy of debate on the subject, as does the dishonesty I pointed out earlier.

No, I've understood them alright. The only difference is I recognize that what Bioware is doing is attempting to sell the game by showcasing concepts that appeal to the broader audience. You, on the other hand, have gone ahead and assumed that because the not-so-basic Star Wars elements are not shown a whole year before release, much of those elements must not be in the game and that this game merely panders to the lowest denominator ("fanboyism hurr hurr hurr!"). Of course, nevermind the fact that the developers have consistently said that they're basing their entire game on KOTOR or that much of the experience will be similar to KOTOR or that this game is a whole year from release at best. They must be fanboys who have no idea how to write a good story or how to present narratives beyond Star Wars imitations, am I right?

Eleas wrote:Oh, by all means do let's compare. We essentially compare a DDD cup to a DD cup and almost complete nudity to only partial nudity. To you, apparently, this holds some sort of meaning beyond the fact that it's more of the same shit, only slightly less steaming.

Based on what scalings? Your say so? Have you even seen DD cups, you permavirgin moron?

Which is of course a complete fucking red herring, and a piss-poor one at that. We're - or at least, I was - talking about the game needing to be tenuously connected to Star Wars. I appreciate you raising the salient point of the women looking like strippers instead of whores. I'm sure that's a meaningful observation on some level, if only to the clinically retarded.

Hey you're the one who made the fucking red-herring jackass. Also, go fuck yourself dipshit, TOR hardly objectifies women to the degree as those other games with bared midriffs and breasplates that literally just cover the breasts.

Eleas wrote:Then you have either not bothered to read my arguments, or failed to understand them. Either way, that makes you unworthy of debate on the subject, as does the dishonesty I pointed out earlier.

DR5 says you need to back up your claims, so why don't you show the canon discrepancies?

The females do not look structurally different from Bastila in KOTOR.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:You're a fucking idiot.

Aww, that's cute. Is this the part where you're attempting to prove your statements, instead of once again showing your particular brand of idiocy and obstinacy?

You're complaining about the lack of originality when the entire time, the primary aim of The Old Republic is to implement their existing story system into an MMO. The innovative part is the integration of two existing but different systems, not the creation of something revolutionary. But apparently, you're expecting some something entirely different and chastising the developers for not delivering a system that they never promised to begin with.

Well, guess not. That's not nearly what it's about, of course. My complaints centered on the lack of originality they displayed while touting the game as some kind of triumph of storyline and graphics. If a storyline is to be considered good, it should offer something new. This does not. This is taking a few story railroads and running them parallel so as to allow some small interaction. They have already used the same mechanism to handle branching; this is more of the same, and barely even a gimmick.

Then, of course, one may want to look at the story itself. The examples given had holes in several respects, holes that I (lest we forget) enumerated while you ignored them in your usual cowardly fashion. The research was quite simply slapdash, and there were no storytelling moments of character to be seen.

So yeah, they now synch talking scenes. Well and good, they can praise that modest experiment all they want. When the game cannot deliver a story comparable to other efforts in the Star Wars franchise (which is what they did claim, and claim on their website as fucking well), then their self-fellating cries of joy over the story become laughable. I do not have to respect them at all, and I don't.

No, I've understood them alright. The only difference is I recognize that what Bioware is doing is attempting to sell the game by showcasing concepts that appeal to the broader audience.

Ooo, the pragmatism argument. I never expected this one. Well, okay, I did. But that's okay. I'll let you remain in your staunch belief that this was an actual point, able somehow to justify why canon should be ignored and the movies simply regurgitated. In return, I'll merely continue watching you flail in petulant fury.

You, on the other hand, have gone ahead and assumed that because the not-so-basic Star Wars elements are not shown a whole year before release, much of those elements must not be in the game and that this game merely panders to the lowest denominator ("fanboyism hurr hurr hurr!").

Don't presume to understand the mind of a thinking person, boy. What I have assumed is that the idiots in charge will present actual content. I assume that they display their vision of the game. I attack them on that rationale. Your impotent fury will not change that.

Of course, nevermind the fact that the developers have consistently said that they're basing their entire game on KOTOR or that much of the experience will be similar to KOTOR. They must be fanboys who have no idea how to write a good story or how to present narratives beyond Star Wars imitations, am I right?

My first impression when reading the initial blurbs introducing a game is to wait for something that isn't boilerplate. When someone claims to respect a franchise, I don't seriously consider blowing them until I see proof of that fact. And when the first in-universe trivia they've shown me show clear and repeated ignorance and/or laziness, that means I will not, in fact, suck their cock at all.

This is how you and I differ, I take it.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:The females do not look structurally different from Bastila in KOTOR.

I would hazard to say they're smaller.

Eleas wrote:triumph of storyline and graphics

Triumph of blending Bioware storytelling with MMO, but where do you get the boasting of awesome graphics from?

General Schatten wrote:Based on what scalings? Your say so? Have you even seen DD cups, you permavirgin moron?

Funnily, my girlfriend just leaned in and I asked her. Answer? Well, if we look at Bastila in the pic below (which you conceded could well have smaller tits), that's either E or F. E equates to DD. Your ignorance of a DD cup is sad enough to merit education, so here's a helpful hint: it has to do with circumference as well. Before you start to complain about my unfairness in asking someone who herself buys bras and is a seamstress to boot, consider the possibility of asking a woman for advice... oh. I see the problem.

Hey you're the one who made the fucking red-herring jackass. Also, go fuck yourself dipshit, TOR hardly objectifies women to the degree as those other games with bared midriffs and breasplates that literally just cover the breasts.

Doesn't matter. It was not a red herring because my argument pertained to Star Wars, not other MMOs. Relative objectification is moronic, as are you.

Eleas wrote:Then you have either not bothered to read my arguments, or failed to understand them. Either way, that makes you unworthy of debate on the subject, as does the dishonesty I pointed out earlier.

DR5 says you need to back up your claims, so why don't you show the canon discrepancies?

The Grand Moff title. The Hutta thing. The replica of Jango Fett's armor. The Imperial symbol being used in slightly mutated form by the Sith.

All of these things have been pointed out before, most by myself in this thread. Undoubtedly, you're now ready to "disprove" this statement by attempting to explain away the odd coincidences. That's not how it works. I gave my arguments, stated them to be such, and they were ignored. You would know this if you had read my words. Now. The rules of the debate also specify that you need to address or concede arguments. Begin doing so, both of you, instead of your assholish handwaving and irrelevant tangents. I'll be waiting until tomorrow, in what I'm sure will be breathless anticipation of your latest screeds.

PintOfSomethingWeird wrote:The females do not look structurally different from Bastila in KOTOR.

Here's the fun thing, though - the devs talked about a new art direction. That art style reduces details. One detail that wasn't reduced? Copious tits.

General Schatten wrote:Triumph of blending Bioware storytelling with MMO, but where do you get the boasting of awesome graphics from?

Well, from their gushing over the combat engine, the new art direction, fidelity, etc. This is on display in the longer dev diary.

General Schatten wrote:

Eleas wrote:triumph of storyline and graphics

Triumph of blending Bioware storytelling with MMO, but where do you get the boasting of awesome graphics from?

In one of the dev videos, it's said that the look of the game should resemble KOTOR very closely (they dub it "stylized realism"). But of course, KOTOR is 7 years old and while SWTOR looks similar, it does look marginally better. I don't know what what fucking Eleashithead (Yes, I can asininely make fun of names too) is talking about in regards of "new art direction" but it's been clear from day one that the game is supposed to be a continuation of KOTOR and it makes little sense to deviate too much from the art style of KOTOR.

EDIT: Actually, in fact, here's a developer walkthrough video. At about 3:40, he briefly talks about the art style, which he explicitly states is supposed to look like KOTOR.

Won't let me edit my BBC fuckup.

Eleas wrote:-snip-

Cause I'm totally trusting the word of someone I just called a permavirgin on whether he's had a girlfriend or not, and no they don't compare.

Eleas wrote:The Grand Moff title.

How is that a contradiction?

The Hutta thing.

"Current Underworld slang has shortened the name to a simple ‘Hutta’—a place where more civilized people threaten to send their children if they misbehave."-From the Official Page of Nal Hutta on SWTOR.com

The replica of Jango Fett's armor.

Total replica.

The Imperial symbol being used in slightly mutated form by the Sith.

So wait, now only Palpatine can pervert the symbol of the Bendu?

All of these things have been pointed out before, most by myself in this thread. Undoubtedly, you're now ready to "disprove" this statement by attempting to explain away the odd coincidences. That's not how it works. I gave my arguments, stated them to be such, and they were ignored. You would know this if you had read my words. Now. The rules of the debate also specify that you need to address or concede arguments. Begin doing so, both of you, instead of your assholish handwaving and irrelevant tangents. I'll be waiting until tomorrow, in what I'm sure will be breathless anticipation of your latest screeds.

And all of them bullshit, now proceed to throw yourself out of a window.

Well, from their gushing over the combat engine, the new art direction, fidelity, etc. This is on display in the longer dev diary.

I mean specifically, not vague allusions to it, jackass.

How is that a contradiction?

Because Grand Moffs were explicatly an invention of Palpatine in order to placate the ambitious by giving them even higher titles to aspire to?

Total replica.

Actually it would make sense for them to look similar- aside from the value of full coverage, ripping of the Mandalorians (or having actual Mandalorians) is something bounty hunters would do.

So wait, now only Palpatine can pervert the symbol of the Bendu?

If the Sith had used it previously, I think the Jedi council would have been a bit more paranoid about its adoption during the Republic. You can't really have it perverted more than once because by the second time, it will have the new meaning.

Samuel wrote:

So wait, now only Palpatine can pervert the symbol of the Bendu?

If the Sith had used it previously, I think the Jedi council would have been a bit more paranoid about its adoption during the Republic. You can't really have it perverted more than once because by the second time, it will have the new meaning.

Also keep in mind that this is supposed to take place some odd 3,500 years before The Phantom Menace and 2,500 years before the "extinction" of the Sith. That's a lot of time for the symbol's meaning to change and for the galactic society to subconsciously forget about the war.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:

Samuel wrote:

So wait, now only Palpatine can pervert the symbol of the Bendu?

If the Sith had used it previously, I think the Jedi council would have been a bit more paranoid about its adoption during the Republic. You can't really have it perverted more than once because by the second time, it will have the new meaning.

Also keep in mind that this is supposed to take place some odd 3,500 years before The Phantom Menace and 2,500 years before the "extinction" of the Sith. That's a lot of time for the symbol's meaning to change and for the galactic society to subconsciously forget about the war.

What, they wouldn't have records? Nobody ever looks up the Old Republic - Sith Empire war on the holonet wikipedia equivalent?
Hell, 2000 years ago we didn't have anything near today's technology and we know all about Roman symbols and their significance, let alone a society where technology has remained more or less static baring improvements in efficiency.

To me it's just the return of the old EU brainbug, where the Imperial symbol was inherently evil, and the Republic used symbols similar to and sometimes identical to the Rebel Alliance lotus (this being EU from before the PT).

Gramzamber wrote:What, they wouldn't have records? Nobody ever looks up the Old Republic - Sith Empire war on the holonet wikipedia equivalent?
Hell, 2000 years ago we didn't have anything near today's technology and we know all about Roman symbols and their significance, let alone a society where technology has remained more or less static baring improvements in efficiency.

To me it's just the return of the old EU brainbug, where the Imperial symbol was inherently evil, and the Republic used symbols similar to and sometimes identical to the Rebel Alliance lotus (this being EU from before the PT).

No, I meant to subconsciously forget in the sense that it's so absent in the minds of most people in society that most of its lessons are forgotten. Of course, they would have records and historians would have plenty of notable historical events to draw from. But most people in our world today are largely ignorant of ancient Rome aside from what's commonly shown in popular television and movies.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:

Gramzamber wrote:What, they wouldn't have records? Nobody ever looks up the Old Republic - Sith Empire war on the holonet wikipedia equivalent?
Hell, 2000 years ago we didn't have anything near today's technology and we know all about Roman symbols and their significance, let alone a society where technology has remained more or less static baring improvements in efficiency.

To me it's just the return of the old EU brainbug, where the Imperial symbol was inherently evil, and the Republic used symbols similar to and sometimes identical to the Rebel Alliance lotus (this being EU from before the PT).

No, I meant to subconsciously forget in the sense that it's so absent in the minds of most people in society that most of its lessons are forgotten. Of course, they would have records and historians would have plenty of notable historical events to draw from. But most people in our world today are largely ignorant of ancient Rome aside from what's commonly shown in popular television and movies.

Maybe but even your average bonehead redneck probably has an idea of the Roman eagle standard or the significance of SPQR if only from movies.
Given that the Republic prevails eventually I'd imagine there'd be a ton of media on the conflict in TPM's time.

Gramzamber wrote:Maybe but even your average bonehead redneck probably has an idea of the Roman eagle standard or the significance of SPQR if only from movies.
Given that the Republic prevails eventually I'd imagine there'd be a ton of media on the conflict in TPM's time.

lol. You give the average human being more credit than I do.

Samuel wrote:Because Grand Moffs were explicatly an invention of Palpatine in order to placate the ambitious by giving them even higher titles to aspire to?

Is it now? I thought it was a rank that was made up for the Empire.

Actually it would make sense for them to look similar- aside from the value of full coverage, ripping of the Mandalorians

If the Sith had used it previously, I think the Jedi council would have been a bit more paranoid about its adoption during the Republic. You can't really have it perverted more than once because by the second time, it will have the new meaning.

Not if Bendu are common motifs of the Galaxy, the Republic around the time of Exar Kun are shown using a blue nine spoked Bendu and Khoonda on Dantooine uses a yellow one during KotOR II.

Samuel wrote:Because Grand Moffs were explicatly an invention of Palpatine in order to placate the ambitious by giving them even higher titles to aspire to?

And what contradicts it then?

If the Sith had used it previously, I think the Jedi council would have been a bit more paranoid about its adoption during the Republic. You can't really have it perverted more than once because by the second time, it will have the new meaning.

Not if Bendu are common motifs of the Galaxy, the Republic around the time of Exar Kun are shown using a blue nine spoked Bendu and Khoonda on Dantooine uses a yellow one during KotOR II.

Look, the original symbol was one of a peacefull religion.

And you don't freak put just because someone uses a symbol that is thousands of years old just because someone in that history of users was evil.
Or do you think that in thousand years, people will freak out if someone uses a swastika?

Serafina wrote:Look, the original symbol was one of a peacefull religion.

And you don't freak put just because someone uses a symbol that is thousands of years old just because someone in that history of users was evil.
Or do you think that in thousand years, people will freak out if someone uses a swastika?

If in 1000 years' time Israel were to adopt the swastika, people would raise an eyebrow at least.

Gramzamber wrote:If in 1000 years' time Israel were to adopt the swastika, people would raise an eyebrow at least.

Did Israel use the Swastika as their own symbol at the time the Nazi's did? No this is more comparable to America using the Bald Eagle after the German Empire used the Reichsadler in WW1 and the Nazis used the Parteiadler in WW2.

General Schatten wrote:DR5 says you need to back up your claims, so why don't you show the canon discrepancies?

Quite ironic for you to be spouting rules like you were a moderator, given what you said later on...

General Schatten wrote:

Eleas wrote:-snip-

Cause I'm totally trusting the word of someone I just called a permavirgin on whether he's had a girlfriend or not, and no they don't compare.

DR5 violation. Bzzt, sorry, try again. You don't get to ignore Eleas' argument because you believe, with no proof, that he is a "permavirgin", especially when I know personally that that's not the case.