StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It would be more of a problem if there wasn't that weak scale in the dragon's armour. The exhaust port is a mythic element, and one that is absolutely cinematically necessary. No vulnerability, no starfighter heroics, they can't stop it in time, Yavin IV fireballs, franchise is over after one movie. Now that is a plot hole, the kind that a bullet through the head leaves.

It might have elevated ANH to the status of a true classic- a shock downbeat ending on par with Dark Star (John Carpenter's version of course, the one with the talking bombs)- but that would have been it, finish, end of.

Given that it has to happen that way to avoid becoming a one- movie trilogy, there should be some better in universe, disbelief suspended explanation than "they were stupid".

If the idea that it is outright not feasible for whatever reason to protect it with physical blast doors and particle shields doesn't work, then what else is left?

Billions of crew is not the number I've heard for the thing, it may be a realistic estimate (although; why? Minus the singular functions, much of this is surely scutwork) but it's not a canonical one. One to two million is the ICS figure- smaller than many armies through Earth history, small enough to handpick on the SW scale. Mutiny on that scale is possible, far more possible anyway.

As for not needing a force sensitive pilot, well, no-one apart from the force sensitive guy hit it. Maybe it should be within the capability of c21 weapons, but jamming, point defence, the norms couldn't do it.

Anakin Skywalker, on the other hand, with his proven track record of blowing up ridiculously big things with starfighters, probably could- and don't forget, Tarkin was not aware of any of this. Seven thousand TIEs on board and the only ones that launched were Vader's personal guard.

That does suggest to me that Tarkin believed, up till the last, that the station was invulnerable, and Vader knew perfectly well it wasn't.

If there has to be an explanation, and I reckon there does, then, well, maybe I'll think of something better in the morning.

Sea Skimmer wrote: The Death Star makes life all the easier because the station is so massive, its internal volume goes up far quicker then the surface area, which means a minimization of the armor penetrations compared to the total design effort. Proportionally the bigger the ship, the easier it is to protect. A straight shaft to the reactor is just completely retarded. Modern battleships had to protect larger openings while being smaller ships and did so quite well at it. Like I said all they needed was a grating or a bend. Its just stupid, movies are made out of stupidity most of the time.

I'm a firm believer that fiction has to make sense; real life doesn't have to. (paraphrasing Twain here.) So if I'm going to stick something in a story of mine, something that seems like a stretch, I'd like to be able to point to a real life example of that very thing so I can feel a little more honest. That's why I listed those examples. Really dumb things have happened before.

The Death Star's flaw really does come more from mythology than history. Luke may as well have flown in with a burnished shield so that the Death Star saw its own reflection and turned to stone. I did list some good flaws and screwups from history but a vulnerability your enemy susses out in a few hours, that really takes the cake. Back to the evil overlord planning list -- have 10-yr old child review all plans. Any deficiencies he can point out will be corseted immediately.

Sea Skimmer wrote:The Death Star makes life all the easier because the station is so massive, its internal volume goes up far quicker then the surface area, which means a minimization of the armor penetrations compared to the total design effort. Proportionally the bigger the ship, the easier it is to protect. A straight shaft to the reactor is just completely retarded. Modern battleships had to protect larger openings while being smaller ships and did so quite well at it. Like I said all they needed was a grating or a bend. Its just stupid, movies are made out of stupidity most of the time.

Movies aren't necessarily stupid; they're simply bound by a plot structure built around audience expectations and various traditional motifs. Sure, it's really difficult to come up with a reasonable explanation for the exhaust port flaw. But the movie establishes that the Death Star is a near-invicible super-weapon. There's no way the audience would buy that the Rebels could destroy it using conventional attacks, so some sort of Achilles' heel vulnerability needs to be there for plot purposes. Also, the exhaust port flaw validates Vader's earlier warning to Motti not to place too much confidence in their new superweapon. So, can you suggest something better than the exhaust port? Keep in mind that the plot structure also demands that Luke do something with the force to save the day, and that Han somehow redeems himself.

I sent an email to the guy who wrote the article. his responses are in bold




>
> 1.) Why didn't Obiwan tell Luke that Vader was his father. Nick, do you really think a teenaged boy would be able to handle the knowledge that his father was mass murdering psychopath?
It's pretty well-established that Jedi have the power to influence people's minds. Obi could have calmed Luke. Further, as the only alternative is to let Vader do it one day, of course Obi should have done it.
>
> 2.) Why Vader didn't tell Luke right away. Vader didn't really have any opportunities to tell him until Cloud City. The opening credits make it quite clear that Vader's been chasing Luke since the end of episode IV, and has only just caught up with him at the start of episode V. Hell they don't even exchange a single line of dialogue until the fight on cloud city.
Well that's just part of the flaw, isn't it. Vader is Beria to the emperor's Stalin--he can't find a way to get a message to Luke? He can't marshall the power of the empire's media and military force, or heck, use his Sith powers? You are half-right in that after all Vader is done simply telling Luke of their true relationship wouldn't be effective, but it's not like it was effective when it was actually done either, was it?
>
> 3.) Why they didn't tell him leia was his sister. That would have raised a lot of unwanted questions that could have let everything out before they were ready.
Not really; nothing really is all that extra-problematic. "We had to split you up to double chances of survival," would have handled 99% of the questions. Really, as you know, they didn't even think to make Leia his sister until years into the franchise...

> 4.) Why the empire didn't find luke as a baby: The force is not a gps locater. It does not allow you to find everyone in the galaxy.

The empire has other resources than the Force. Further, Luke's name is SKYWALKER. I can find all the Mamatases in this country in two smaps. Now imagine what I could do were I Vice President...does the empire not do a census? Not collect taxes? Not monitor imports and exports?
> a.) Also, given that Vader despised Obi Wan, considered himself Obi Wan's superior in every way, and had more then enough troops to nullify any traps, wouldn't he have gone to tatooine with his soldiers if he sensed Obi Wan? Therefore the rational answer is that he didn't sense his master then. He also would have gone to dagobah.

This actually supports my point not yours; empires have a police and military function. How could the empire not have surveilled The Last Two Jedi in the cosmos and simply blown up the planets they were suspected of being on. It's not like moisture-farming and salvage are so strategically important that the risk was too great.>

> Mamatas might argue that their politicial pull would allow them to find Luke but this is flawed for two reasons. 1.) Tatooine is an isolated backwater in the middle of nowhere with no importance to anyone besides the Hutts, and is so unimportant that the empire that they don't even bother sending troops until episode IV.
Yes, but that IS ridiculous. The backwaters of China have military and Communist Party personnel stationed there. Outer mongolia and the mountains of Tibet do, and that's without FTL travel! (And without the Dalia Lama really having magical powers!)

> 5.) Why Owen bought the droids: It's been twenty years since he's seen them, they have nothing unique about them to seperate them from countless other droids that look exactly like them, and the only one he's familiar with has a different appearence. Why the fuck should he recognize them?
Stover made the same silly argument; people do exactly what you say they don't all the time when it comes to, say, cars. "Hey, I had a car like that...but mine has two scratches, etc."
> 6.) Obi Wan and the Droids: Given Obi Wan's prejudice it could be simple bigotry.
So much for the enlightened light side of the force, especially when everything hangs in the balance! Doesn't make sense, either plot or character-wise.
> 7.) Leaving Luke with his Uncle: First off, there is the anonminity that I cited above, and the second is the fact that they need Luke to grow up with a real family, so that he won't develop his dad's issues. Owen is a guy they can trust so voila problem solved.
Again, if the Skywalkers pay taxes or tarrifs or sell their moisture, they're known. A much less advanced culture, our own, can do this. Heck, with my first and last name and knowledge of Port Jefferson, you can find where I am sitting right now, and you're not the Vice President either...
> 8.) Leia: Given that leia didn't have Luke's circumstances, they would have had to make a cover story (i.e she was a war orphan they adopted out of pity. Believable since real celebs do that all the time for publicity stunts). If they have a good story they won't do a midicholrian test, which is supposed to be super specicific.
Are war orphans often elevated to political power in monarchies?
> 9.) The alleged inferiority of tech: First off, why are three sets of wings better then two? More isn't always better. Plus seeing as the Rebel's are a band of guerilla fighters they could simply be using second hand tech. As for why no references: Why the fuck should there be.
Well, which is it? Is the stuff better or not?
> 10.) Motti's athiesm: He's referring to Vader's abilities, and even then the jedi were pretty aloof and rare.
It's recent history. If in recent history General Eisenhower swooped over Germany on a magic carpet and it's in all the histories, you'd find only very rare colonels who didn't believe in magic carpets, even if the military only had three.
> 11.) Why Artoo has no rockets: He does look more battered, and there is the fact that he's seen combat a lot if three p o is to be believed.
Let's expand the question--why don't any of the vaguely similar droids have rockets.
> 12.) Why hide luke on tatooine: So he can grow to adulthood in relative safety? This isn't rocket science.[/b]
Under his own name, on a defenseless planet that could be wiped off the face of the universe at the whim of the empire...

> 13.) Star Wars "ruining" cinema: I'm sorry but that's like saying Arch duke ferdinand's death was the sole cause of world war I. there is no way of noing what would have happened had wars never been made; Jaws showed that blockbusters could be popular. Also; sturgeon's law was just as applicable in the 70s as it is today, meaning that there were a lot of bad films then as well. And what of films such as lord of the rings, philedlphia, saving private ryan, and many more. At worst star wars was one of many contributing factors.
That's true. But Star Wars was THE prime factor. (Also, Philadelphia wasn't a good movie).

Darth Yan wrote: It's pretty well-established that Jedi have the power to influence people's minds. Obi could have calmed Luke. Further, as the only alternative is to let Vader do it one day, of course Obi should have done it.

Influence the minds of the weak-minded, and having the Force himself, Luke probably wouldn't have been that affected. Besides, it wouldn't have stopped him from getting all worked up about it afterwards.

Well that's just part of the flaw, isn't it. Vader is Beria to the emperor's Stalin--he can't find a way to get a message to Luke? He can't marshall the power of the empire's media and military force, or heck, use his Sith powers? You are half-right in that after all Vader is done simply telling Luke of their true relationship wouldn't be effective, but it's not like it was effective when it was actually done either, was it?

An e-mail isn't as effective as conveying a speech in words, especially as Vader knows that Luke could sense that he was being truthful if we was in person.

Not really; nothing really is all that extra-problematic. "We had to split you up to double chances of survival," would have handled 99% of the questions. Really, as you know, they didn't even think to make Leia his sister until years into the franchise...

At what point would it have been useful?

The empire has other resources than the Force. Further, Luke's name is SKYWALKER. I can find all the Mamatases in this country in two smaps. Now imagine what I could do were I Vice President...does the empire not do a census? Not collect taxes? Not monitor imports and exports?

Does he understand the scale of a galactic civilization? There's trillions of beings and probably at least thousands of Skywalkers who could have taken the name from Anakin. Hell, Tatooine is a shithole; I doubt the Empire would care if some tiny moisture farm didn't bother putting itself down for censs.

This actually supports my point not yours; empires have a police and military function. How could the empire not have surveilled The Last Two Jedi in the cosmos and simply blown up the planets they were suspected of being on. It's not like moisture-farming and salvage are so strategically important that the risk was too great.>

They've got fifty million worlds to search for two people. Try and grasp the scale of a galaxy.

Yes, but that IS ridiculous. The backwaters of China have military and Communist Party personnel stationed there. Outer mongolia and the mountains of Tibet do, and that's without FTL travel! (And without the Dalia Lama really having magical powers!)

The difference being that China has neighbors to keep an eye on. The Empire doesn't.

Stover made the same silly argument; people do exactly what you say they don't all the time when it comes to, say, cars. "Hey, I had a car like that...but mine has two scratches, etc."

And quite often they don't. Just because you say so doesn't make it occur in every case.

So much for the enlightened light side of the force, especially when everything hangs in the balance! Doesn't make sense, either plot or character-wise.

You ever tried telling two broken phones at a scrap heap apart?

Again, if the Skywalkers pay taxes or tarrifs or sell their moisture, they're known. A much less advanced culture, our own, can do this. Heck, with my first and last name and knowledge of Port Jefferson, you can find where I am sitting right now, and you're not the Vice President either...

Tatooine is, as noted in the films, ruled by crime lords and scum. You try tracking down a random farmer in Somalia. While keeping tabs on a million other Somalias.

Are war orphans often elevated to political power in monarchies?

If the adoptees feel like it, why not?

Well, which is it? Is the stuff better or not?

As the characters don't stop in the films to exposit the precise specs, how the fuck should we know? It'd be logical to assume that it's better. Sleeker doesn't equal more advanced.

It's recent history. If in recent history General Eisenhower swooped over Germany on a magic carpet and it's in all the histories, you'd find only very rare colonels who didn't believe in magic carpets, even if the military only had three.

When did Motti deny the Force? He was obviously just trying to be a tough guy in front of the others.

Let's expand the question--why don't any of the vaguely similar droids have rockets.

Because at no point did they need to use them?

Under his own name, on a defenseless planet that could be wiped off the face of the universe at the whim of the empire...

Again, get some perspective. You're in charge of the CIA. You're looking for a hairpin that has been buried under a random field in Zimbabwe. And you don't know it's in Zimbabwe.

That's true. But Star Wars was THE prime factor. (Also, Philadelphia wasn't a good movie).

'Wah wah wah. Blockbusters are for measelly peasents; I'm culturrred, you know.'

Sigh...there is a slight difference between a country, or even a planet, and a whole fuckin' galaxy. I think you'd understand the scale disparity there.

I mean, hell, take this Arab fellow whose name and face is known throughout the world, whose approximate location is also known, and yet the mightiest nations in the world with all their resouces haven't found him in nearly a decade. Now imagine if his number of potential hiding holes was increased by a factor of a billion.

Darth Yan wrote:> 1.) Why didn't Obiwan tell Luke that Vader was his father. Nick, do you really think a teenaged boy would be able to handle the knowledge that his father was mass murdering psychopath?
It's pretty well-established that Jedi have the power to influence people's minds. Obi could have calmed Luke. Further, as the only alternative is to let Vader do it one day, of course Obi should have done it.

Jedi could influence the "weak minded." Also, I would imagine Jedi training would damp down Obi's urge for wanton manipulation of minds; he's supposed to be better than Sith, after all.

Darth Yan wrote:> 2.) Why Vader didn't tell Luke right away. Vader didn't really have any opportunities to tell him until Cloud City. The opening credits make it quite clear that Vader's been chasing Luke since the end of episode IV, and has only just caught up with him at the start of episode V. Hell they don't even exchange a single line of dialogue until the fight on cloud city.
Well that's just part of the flaw, isn't it. Vader is Beria to the emperor's Stalin--he can't find a way to get a message to Luke? He can't marshall the power of the empire's media and military force, or heck, use his Sith powers? You are half-right in that after all Vader is done simply telling Luke of their true relationship wouldn't be effective, but it's not like it was effective when it was actually done either, was it?

So the emperor was going to throw all the empire's resources after finding one small boy? Even if he did blow up the Death Star, it could still be passed off as a fluke, and I imagine the emperor felt skeptical about Vader's assessment of Luke even after he told him. Only after the emperor himself felt the tremor in the force did he give full blessings to Vader.

Also, Vader wanted to overthrow the emperor. "Rule the galaxy together as father and son!" remember? Vader was using resources directly under his command, that he had absolute descression using, not only because that's all the emperor would authorize, but also because any more risked the emperor discovering his designs.

Darth Yan wrote:> 3.) Why they didn't tell him leia was his sister. That would have raised a lot of unwanted questions that could have let everything out before they were ready.
Not really; nothing really is all that extra-problematic. "We had to split you up to double chances of survival," would have handled 99% of the questions. Really, as you know, they didn't even think to make Leia his sister until years into the franchise...

I would have thought that was too obvious to even give voice to.

Darth Yan wrote:> 4.) Why the empire didn't find luke as a baby: The force is not a gps locater. It does not allow you to find everyone in the galaxy.
The empire has other resources than the Force. Further, Luke's name is SKYWALKER. I can find all the Mamatases in this country in two smaps. Now imagine what I could do were I Vice President...does the empire not do a census? Not collect taxes? Not monitor imports and exports?

Of course, but the fact that Luke didn't show up on Sith-dar may have been a good enough sign to the emperor that he was no threat at all, and as such, why should he try to hunt down Luke? I mean, Luke has a history of not pinging the emperor's Sith-dar — "Strange that I have not [felt him]"

Darth Yan wrote:> a.) Also, given that Vader despised Obi Wan, considered himself Obi Wan's superior in every way, and had more then enough troops to nullify any traps, wouldn't he have gone to tatooine with his soldiers if he sensed Obi Wan? Therefore the rational answer is that he didn't sense his master then. He also would have gone to dagobah.

This actually supports my point not yours; empires have a police and military function. How could the empire not have surveilled The Last Two Jedi in the cosmos and simply blown up the planets they were suspected of being on. It's not like moisture-farming and salvage are so strategically important that the risk was too great.

They went from tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of Jedi to the last two. I would be pretty confident that those last two posed no threat even if I knew about them — with a loss of that many, it would be positively perverse if the bureaurocracy didn't lose track of a few of them. Only Vader had a personal vendetta against Obi-wan, and a personal interest in revenge against him specifically.

Darth Yan wrote:> Mamatas might argue that their politicial pull would allow them to find Luke but this is flawed for two reasons. 1.) Tatooine is an isolated backwater in the middle of nowhere with no importance to anyone besides the Hutts, and is so unimportant that the empire that they don't even bother sending troops until episode IV.
Yes, but that IS ridiculous. The backwaters of China have military and Communist Party personnel stationed there. Outer mongolia and the mountains of Tibet do, and that's without FTL travel! (And without the Dalia Lama really having magical powers!)

Even China had to spend some time solidifying its hold over its entire territory. By the time of Episode IV, the empire was still trying to shed the last vestages of the Old Republic — they didn't even dissolve the Senate and become completely totallitarian until midway through the film! Indeed, to unify the empire under the iron hand of the emperor is the entire purpose of the Death Star.

Darth Yan wrote:> 5.) Why Owen bought the droids: It's been twenty years since he's seen them, they have nothing unique about them to seperate them from countless other droids that look exactly like them, and the only one he's familiar with has a different appearence. Why the fuck should he recognize them?
Stover made the same silly argument; people do exactly what you say they don't all the time when it comes to, say, cars. "Hey, I had a car like that...but mine has two scratches, etc."

Except Owen never owned Artoo before Episode IV — Artoo was Aniken's droid, not Uncle Owen's. Why should Owen have any memories of a droid he probably never saw, much less owned. And probably by that time, Threepio was long gone, as he was Aniken's project and would probably still had been Flying Trunk Guy's (and he was destitute, so he was likely pawned to someone else).

Darth Yan wrote:> 6.) Obi Wan and the Droids: Given Obi Wan's prejudice it could be simple bigotry.
So much for the enlightened light side of the force, especially when everything hangs in the balance! Doesn't make sense, either plot or character-wise.

Nobody's perfect. Besides, Artoo was Aniken's, so his denial of owning Artoo was probably the unvarnished (if deceptive) truth.

Darth Yan wrote:> 7.) Leaving Luke with his Uncle: First off, there is the anonminity that I cited above, and the second is the fact that they need Luke to grow up with a real family, so that he won't develop his dad's issues. Owen is a guy they can trust so voila problem solved.
Again, if the Skywalkers pay taxes or tarrifs or sell their moisture, they're known. A much less advanced culture, our own, can do this. Heck, with my first and last name and knowledge of Port Jefferson, you can find where I am sitting right now, and you're not the Vice President either...

How common is the name "Skywalker"? If its unique in the galaxy, he would have a point. If not, why should anyone expect the "Skywalker" on Tatooine be the "Skywalker" that is Aniken Skywalker's son. And besides, they obviously weren't looking too hard for him.

Darth Yan wrote:> 8.) Leia: Given that leia didn't have Luke's circumstances, they would have had to make a cover story (i.e she was a war orphan they adopted out of pity. Believable since real celebs do that all the time for publicity stunts). If they have a good story they won't do a midicholrian test, which is supposed to be super specicific.
Are war orphans often elevated to political power in monarchies?

Who says that their rules of succession must work like those of our monarchies? If the couple was childless, they would have little other choice.

Darth Yan wrote:> 9.) The alleged inferiority of tech: First off, why are three sets of wings better then two? More isn't always better. Plus seeing as the Rebel's are a band of guerilla fighters they could simply be using second hand tech. As for why no references: Why the fuck should there be.
Well, which is it? Is the stuff better or not?

This guy's entire argument has been destroyed. There's no reason why to expect that more wings == better machine, and there's no reason to expect that the Rebels could afford better even if that were the case. It's simply wrong on two fronts.

Darth Yan wrote:> 10.) Motti's athiesm: He's referring to Vader's abilities, and even then the jedi were pretty aloof and rare.
It's recent history. If in recent history General Eisenhower swooped over Germany on a magic carpet and it's in all the histories, you'd find only very rare colonels who didn't believe in magic carpets, even if the military only had three.

Most Jedi were killed by General Order 69 (or somesuch), and so died by clone soldiers' hands. Vader personally killed only a vanishingly small percentage of the Jedi. Is Eisenhower's ability to kill millions of soviets with the push of the Button credible evidence mystic powers now?

Darth Yan wrote:> 11.) Why Artoo has no rockets: He does look more battered, and there is the fact that he's seen combat a lot if three p o is to be believed.
Let's expand the question--why don't any of the vaguely similar droids have rockets.

Why don't all cars have those goofy hydraulics to make them look like they're humping the road?

Darth Yan wrote:> 12.) Why hide luke on tatooine: So he can grow to adulthood in relative safety? This isn't rocket science.[/b]
Under his own name, on a defenseless planet that could be wiped off the face of the universe at the whim of the empire...

This guy has no proof at all that the emperor was even concerned with wiping out people named "Skywalker". Even if the name was relatively rare, that would still amount to millions of them spread throughout the galaxy. Is the emperor going to glass each and every planet who happens to have a "Skywalker" on it?

Darth Yan wrote:> 13.) Star Wars "ruining" cinema: I'm sorry but that's like saying Arch duke ferdinand's death was the sole cause of world war I. there is no way of noing what would have happened had wars never been made; Jaws showed that blockbusters could be popular. Also; sturgeon's law was just as applicable in the 70s as it is today, meaning that there were a lot of bad films then as well. And what of films such as lord of the rings, philedlphia, saving private ryan, and many more. At worst star wars was one of many contributing factors.
That's true. But Star Wars was THE prime factor. (Also, Philadelphia wasn't a good movie).

Stated without proof.

Destructionator XIII wrote: Turns out the police resources scale linearly with population.

Not in an area described essentially as where the scum likes to settle.

Nobody's really trying either.

Well, same principle here, then. I don't think the Empire was actively trying to track down a random farmboy in the Shithole sector until he blew up their giant disco ball.

Has anyone mentioned that up till the Death Star gets blown up, Vader doesn't know he has kids. As far as he knows wifey died on a volcanic hell-hole when he choked her.

You don't go looking for something if you don't even know it's there.

you have to realize one thing: every point below is absolutely made up by you and does not exist in the films at all. You've decided the films make sense and are rewriting them to ensure that they do. The plain fact is this: FTL travel, which is trivially easy in the star was universe, means that by definition the supply of energy is infinite. The other plain fact is that Obiwan and Luke weren't even hiding; they existed under their own names on the planet they were known to live on. You just like Star Wars, but you're not rebutting anythiing and this is his current rebuttal. Essentially, FTL means it should be easy to find them.

Of course it's easy. You've just never done it, and you don't even understand what you're saying. Why would it be difficult to tell a man named Skywalker of the exact age of Luke (which Vader knows) who lives in the same zip code as Obi Wan Kinobe on the planet he was already connected to from all the other Skywalkers around? go play around with some currently existing background check software if you like and you'll see how easy it is. Now imagine having more energy than there is in the entire universe to do so -- you wouldn't have to go through every possible copy of Frankenstein at once, but with infinite energy of course you could. You are basically insisting that the sort of thing that is done by bill collectors using $100 software thousands of times every day is so incredibly difficult as to be impossible even with super-advanced technology AND magic powers.

That's all; you're just a slave to your favorite childhood movie. No need to communicate any more with you, since you congentially don't get the basics of how the world you are currently in works, much less how a world with FTL must work. (HInt, FTL implies quantum computing.)
any advice to shut this asshole up?

after he insulted my intelligence? no. I'm starting to wonder if you agree with him and just hate the franchise

I'm sorry, it's just that he called me a "slave", and ignored quite a few legitimate points that I made. My comment was uncalled for and I'm sorry. I just feel that my opponent is make illogical statements, and as such I don't feel like conceeding.

i did acknoweldge the computation point. But how is the ftl silly.

As someone said, the Empire didn't even know Amidala had kids. As far as Vader was concerned, they died with her. So there would be no reason to conduct any sort of search for them.

Other than that, if he's really that stubborn, give it up. If he doesn't like the films or thinks they have too many plot holes, well, he's entitled to his views.

his claim is that since ftl requires a great deal of energy, the computers must also have a great deal of energy, and computational power. does that explain anything.

Energy supply doesn't equate to good performance. Besides, what has that got to do with anything?

Idiot wrote:you have to realize one thing: every point below is absolutely made up by you and does not exist in the films at all. You've decided the films make sense and are rewriting them to ensure that they do.

The plain fact is that the Empire is, at the end of the day, a government. For all the evilness invested in it, it has to balance its priorities. The Jedi were reduced from hundreds of thousands to a mere two, and for twenty years those two were, to all appearances (assuming that anyone was bothering to keep track), moldering away not bothering anyone. The logical conclusion was that the Imperials wouldn't bother them in return, especially not with an active rebellion to quell. That's the way to make things make sense.

Idiot wrote:The plain fact is this: FTL travel, which is trivially easy in the star was universe, means that by definition the supply of energy is infinite.

Untrue. Infinite values are unphysical, and in any case, a concentration of energy even approaching infinite density would collapse on itself and form a black hole. While transitioning from STL to FTL is likely to take a fair amount of energy, there is no physics at all that says that it's any value, infinite or otherwise. What this has to do with finding people is beyond me: energy is not the only constraint on what you may accomplish.

Idiot wrote:The other plain fact is that Obiwan and Luke weren't even hiding; they existed under their own names on the planet they were known to live on. You just like Star Wars, but you're not rebutting anythiing

Hiding is unnecessary if the imperials weren't interested in finding. Mr. Idiot here has yet to demonstrate that Luke and Obi-Wan were even on the Imperial radar given the fact that the Jedi were all but wiped out (one would think that if hundreds of thousands of Jedi were so easily dealt with, two would prove to be no more inconvenient than wiping dogshit off your boot), and there's no evidence Vader even knew Luke existed and everything points to Vader not knowing Luke existed prior to ANH.

Darth Yan wrote:his claim is that since ftl requires a great deal of energy, the computers must also have a great deal of energy, and computational power. does that explain anything.

It does, and it means he's even more of an idiot. In my experience, if you put too much energy into a 6502 processor, it fries, not turn into a Cray II. The fundamental constraints on computational power are switching time and switch density, not power.

Wyrm wrote:Hiding is unnecessary if the imperials weren't interested in finding. Mr. Idiot here has yet to demonstrate that Luke and Obi-Wan were even on the Imperial radar given the fact that the Jedi were all but wiped out (one would think that if hundreds of thousands of Jedi were so easily dealt with, two would prove to be no more inconvenient than wiping dogshit off your boot), and there's no evidence Vader even knew Luke existed and everything points to Vader not knowing Luke existed prior to ANH.

That's a somewhat passable rationalization... I guess. But it's really not very satisfying, considering that Obi-Wan and Yoda both thought it would be a good idea to send Luke to live with Anakin's relatives on Tatooine. This decision was made immediately after Anakin turned to the dark side, no less. You might be able to rationalize it, but it certainly doesn't seem like a decision any sane person would make under the circumstances.

Obi-Wan: Where should we hide Luke so Vader doesn't find him?
Yoda: Let's send him to live with Vader's relatives on Tatooine.
Obi-Wan: That's the most preposterous idea I've ever heard.
Yoda: Well, you know, it's not like Vader necessarily knows Luke even exists...
Obi-Wan: He obviously knew Padme was pregnant.
Yoda: Um... well maybe Vader will just lose interest.
Obi-Wan: Jesus you're an idiot. No wonder we lost control of the galaxy.

To be fair, did either even know Anakin was still alive at the time? The last Obi saw of him was him burning away by a lava flow.

just for the record, does ftl require more energy then the universe contains?

A stupidly-implemented Alcubierre drive does. However, several tricks can be used to reduce the mass down to less than three solar masses.

You checked where and with whom? Do you even understand the sentences you are writing? Do you even understand that Star Wars assumes trivially easy FTL, and that your rebuttal is there's no such thing as FTL--because doing so would take more energy than actually exists. As one approaches c, time slows. At c, time stops, and no energy can be added to the system. The way around that (which isn't possible) is to add more energy than can exist in the system to the system--an infinite amount.
I am curious as to just how true this is.

Darth Yan wrote:You checked where and with whom? Do you even understand the sentences you are writing? Do you even understand that Star Wars assumes trivially easy FTL, and that your rebuttal is there's no such thing as FTL--because doing so would take more energy than actually exists. As one approaches c, time slows. At c, time stops, and no energy can be added to the system. The way around that (which isn't possible) is to add more energy than can exist in the system to the system--an infinite amount.
I am curious as to just how true this is.

A gross misrepresentation of both physics and mathematics if I've ever seen one.

The first problem is the age-old misconception of infinity being a number. It is not. It's a concept related to functions of real numbers, but there is no such number that you can stick in place of a real number — including infinity (with the properties ascribed to it) breaks the field axioms. Therefore, the very concept of "infinite energy" is incoherent.

Secondly, one cannot continuously accelerate to FTL speeds via going from STL over c, because the kinetic (and therefore total) energy of the particle approaches a vertical asymptote for a massive particle. FTL cannot be bought at any price with raw acceleration. If, however, you go instantly from two speeds of equal energy but on opposite sides of the "barrier", then the energy cost can be realistic and possibly 0. What we lack is a theory that correlates superluminal speed to total energy of the particle.

i showed him wong's article about energy and he said it was silly since it talked about real world physics. then he made the comments.