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Marcus Aurelius wrote:Yes. TOS characters were just pure fanservice. If you had to have them somewhere, they should have been given real cameo roles in the original meaning of the word (i.e. non-speaking appearances), perhaps an old news clip, photograph or something to that effect. The UNC was a quite suitable end to the adventures of TOS cast and nothing more was needed. Then just write a pure TNG script from scratch, hopefully with no Nexus or other time-related bullshit.

On that note, an idea came to me that the TNG crew could have to deal with something that Kirk and company was previously involved with, and for the cameo you could have the TNG crew reviewing some old starship logs or other reports Kirk and possibly others from the crew made in order to bring the TNG crew up to speed on what they're facing.

But really, they should have just came up with some new ideas for a movie story arc.

I'd preferred that Kirk not died but was reunited with Spock at the end and they go off doing whatever.

The destruction of the E-D served no purpose other than for Paramount to bring out another Enterprise. If they were going to destroy the E-D, either do it through a balls to the wall shootout in which despite winning the ship sustained heavy damage and needed to separate the saucer from the stardrive or an act of sabotage that threatens to destroy the ship yet the majority are saved by separating the saucer. Anything other than being sucker punched by an obsolete ship.

Enigma wrote: The destruction of the E-D served no purpose other than for Paramount to bring out another Enterprise. If they were going to destroy the E-D, either do it through a balls to the wall shootout in which despite winning the ship sustained heavy damage and needed to separate the saucer from the stardrive or an act of sabotage that threatens to destroy the ship yet the majority are saved by separating the saucer. Anything other than being sucker punched by an obsolete ship.

Worse, the destruction of the Ent-D seems to have been there to create "the really cool effects scene". RDM has stated the initial idea came out of an idea to have one of TNG's seasons to end on a cliffhanger with the saucer section crashing towards a planet.

It was ruled out due to the budget, and resuscitated for Generations and turned into fully crashing the saucer. It seems like little logic went into the idea except "hey won't it be cool if...?" Going back to Chuck's observation that something really feels fanfic-esque about the script.

I think one of the biggest problems with Generations is that nobody had a big idea of what they wanted the movie to be about. It wasn't "hey, let's do a movie where Kirk deals with getting old", or "let's go find Spock" or "let's tear down the Berlin Wall in space", it was just "hey we need to make a TNG movie, got any ideas?".

I mean for awhile Moore and Braga were trying to build a movie around "the ultimate movie poster" of the Enterprise-A and -D locked in battle, and eventually had to give that up because they couldn't figure out how to make it work. They didn't have a plot! They just had a collection of shit they wanted to do and a rough connection between it all.

I've long watched these reviews with much enjoyment.

I'm a Trek fan from Gen X (TNG-onwards) and must admit that I've absorbed and observed the many discussions about the general unhappiness fans have with the TNG movies, and I think (as we watch the rebirth of ST last year) I've formulated a theory:

We wanted them to suceed, but they just weren't up to it.

Was TNG ever designed to be a movie franchise? It was a TV series that we all grew to love - we had the time and ability to grow to know the show, the cast, and how that universe works. Perhaps we grew close to them as if we watched a group of friends each week.

We wanted the TNG films to be good - we wanted them to be as cool, as dramatic, as full of interesting story and WIN as the show (mostly) was to us. But they failed. Was it because we no longer see these movies in the eyes of a 10 year old kid - spotting plot holes, inconsistencies, etc? Did Trek mean somthing to us, that we willingly held onto, but we finally lost our grip? Or was it that despite the glaring errors we really wanted, we were willing to see them suceed at the big screen?

But they weren't up to the task. Did we expect too much from a show? Did the issues from the show become gaping problems once amplified up to movie standards? Were the actors, writers and generally everything stuck in the complacencies and status quo they knew as a TV series? Did anyone know how to make a movie really?

The Nemesis review on RedLetterMedia had a good bit at the end - the cast has witnessed the Scmitar's explosion, and Picard walks off screen. The cast stands around in shock, with the commenter observing that it looked as if the characters realized that the magic of the family Trek show has turned into the ash of the final TNG movie.

What Generations did was usher in the TNG era of movies, and it was an exciting time. TNG, DS9, Voyager - these were all an exciting future for that decade, and Generations could have aimed that vector a little higher. Perhaps a solid start could have avoided, averted or delayed that crash that finally came with ENT, and the lights going out for the Next Generation.

Do we now need a Next Next Generation? (and i'm not talking about ST 2009)

Uraniun235 wrote:I think one of the biggest problems with Generations is that nobody had a big idea of what they wanted the movie to be about. It wasn't "hey, let's do a movie where Kirk deals with getting old", or "let's go find Spock" or "let's tear down the Berlin Wall in space", it was just "hey we need to make a TNG movie, got any ideas?".

The theme of Generations seems to have been something about mortality, and essentially "carpe diem". Picard loses his family and the Ent-D, but emerges from the film, similar to Kirk in TWoK, ready to face the days ahead with a new sense of hope. Kirk (sorta) dies as he lived making a difference, and rejects the fantasy Soran embraces. Soran refuses to accept mortality and death, and remains obsessed with the Nexus. However, the film totally, and completely fails at this theme, where prior Trek films succeeded at this theme.

Its not a bad concept, especially in light of all the death and destruction in the film, it just sucked in its execution.

At the risk of blasphemy i liked this better then wrath of kahn and undiscovered country.

Preferring Generations over the other TNG films is one thing; I happen to think of the four, Generations is the best. First Contact loses points with me by horribly retconning the Borg, and if you get past the horrible execution, the themes of the film are actually very good like Skylon says. Insurrection and Nemesis were wastes of film.

Darth Yan wrote:At the risk of blasphemy i liked this better then wrath of kahn and undiscovered country.

get out

wok i had to rent three times cause my dad sent it back by accident once, and undiscovered country was fairly good. I just liked generations more.

Darth Yan wrote:wok i had to rent three times cause my dad sent it back by accident once, and undiscovered country was fairly good. I just liked generations more.

Although I strongly disagree with you, I must admit that it isn't any more wrong than saying that any Star Wars movie is better than 2001: A Space Odyssey, which while quite obviously wrong, is still an opinion that must be allowed, as regrettable as it is, for the sake a plurality and freedom of speech.

ESB is better then space odessy. Odessy dragged, and I felt hal's end was a bit anti climactic. It wasn't bad, but i just didn't like it as much.

Darth Yan wrote:ESB is better then space odessy. Odessy dragged, and I felt hal's end was a bit anti climactic. It wasn't bad, but i just didn't like it as much.

I strongly suspected you would think so, which is why I made the analogy in the first place.

once dave got in hal became a pussy and that was a let down.

Yes, someone begging for their life as their executioner coldly, and slowly, kills them is totally a pussy.

Holy shit, I thought Yan was being ironic at first.

He makes that one effort; when dave gets in he's like "please don't kill me". After being a badass and coldly murdering the others he becomes a complete pussy the moment his first attempt fails. It was lame!!!! I wanted a final battle where Hal would through everything he got, not just whiny as fuck begging. And the end scene, while cool, dragged on for far too long. I guess I was just expevting more.

Yes, because a man shutting off a computer really lends itself well to a 'final battle'. In the meantime, why not have the Discovery blow the fuck out of asteroids for no good reason, and for Dave to have a katana duel with an alien monster that pops out of nowhere? Because that's what the film should have all been about.

Darth Yan wrote:He makes that one effort; when dave gets in he's like "please don't kill me". After being a badass and coldly murdering the others he becomes a complete pussy the moment his first attempt fails. It was lame!!!! I wanted a final battle where Hal would through everything he got, not just whiny as fuck begging.

What the fuck was HAL supposed to do? Activate the on board force fields and lasers? Send the cleaning drones after Dave, so he could have an epic fight with robots? Activate the self destruct (come on, I'm sure all space ships will have them!) Reverse the polarity of the doors so they all become small bombs? Oh wait, the movie had none of that aboard the ship, since this was 2001, not Star Trek.

About all HAL could have done once Dave was back aboard was vent the ship's atmosphere which would do jack as Dave had an EVA suit on.

Srelex wrote:Yes, because a man shutting off a computer really lends itself well to a 'final battle'. In the meantime, why not have the Discovery blow the fuck out of asteroids for no good reason, and for Dave to have a katana duel with an alien monster that pops out of nowhere? Because that's what the film should have all been about.

Also, HAL did not do it protect to itself, it did it because it believed that humans would jeopardize the secret mission. HAL was not an Asimov machine. Its primary priority was the mission and not personal survival (or obviously also not the survival of the crew). Like Skylon wrote, after Dave had protected himself from the only obstacle HAL could still have thrown at him (i.e. venting the atmosphere), there was literally nothing HAL could have done.

Although I mostly agree with DXIII, Dave does show emotion on his face during when he disconnects the higher functions of HAL. Being a psychologically selected and highly trained astronaut he does not really pause, let alone start to cry or anything, but it's clearly more to him than just shutting down any regular computer.

The interesting thing is that Dave Bowman shows more concern with what they would have to do to HAL if the AE-33 unit failed to malfunction as HAL predicted than Frank does. Frank Poole comes across as a robot in the film (especially typified when he received that happy birthday message from his parents and he doesn't register any emotion whatsoever), but yeah I agree with you that Bowman shows some emotion at that scene.

Somebody jog my memory here, but I think Dave was NOT wearing a complete EVA suit in that sequence. The suit, yes, but NOT the helmet. I recall one of the 'Ooh! Drama' bits of him reentering Discovery being that he had to expose himself to vacuum for a minute.
Mind you, it's been eons since I saw the movie.

He grabbed a helmet after he re-entered Discovery. He didn't have a helmet when he foolishly jumped in the Pod to attempt to recover Frank Poole.

Stofsk wrote:He grabbed a helmet after he re-entered Discovery. He didn't have a helmet when he foolishly jumped in the Pod to attempt to recover Frank Poole.

Ah. Thank you.

ok. I guess I was overhyping myself. But still, the dismantling scene was cool

Stofsk wrote:He grabbed a helmet after he re-entered Discovery. He didn't have a helmet when he foolishly jumped in the Pod to attempt to recover Frank Poole.

It isn't actually shown in the movie, though. We just see him going towards HAL's core room with the helmet on, wrong color too if I remember correctly. This is actually how you make movies to thinking adults: you don't have to show and explain every detail. If you have a working brain you should also quickly realize why he put the helmet on.