Galactic Empire vs. Galactic Empire

[Stark]

How do you know what the range was in that episode of B5? They shot at literally nothing visible at all, not ships that mysteriously glow like stars for no reason. They also coordianted fire from several ships onto a target maybe 100m across; nothing like this is ever seen in LoGH.

Frankly aiming would be counter-productive; turning the ship to aim anywhere except 'pretty much straight ahead' would only increase the relative target profile and result in greater casualties. What aiming is going on is probably more ships jockeying around laterally than anything else.

And sorry, you have now ignored repeatedly (from two people) that B5 ships can charge jump engines in a few minutes. It isn't fought this way in B5 because its stupid to do so when people can follow you or if you're damaged, due to the nature of spooky red hyperspace. Obviously this is not the case in LoGH. The Minbari (and thus Whitestars, even later human ships) have pretty decent accuracy jump-wise, easily enough to be on the right side of a giant line of ships. Hell, B5 ships are even designed with 360 degree firepower (and heavy aft firepower) because of the nature of jump drives. This is my whole point; that a universe's drive and weapon limiations shape combat.

I guess you'd call it 'winning' if B5 was driven off only inflicting a few thousand destroyed ships on LoGH before they got bored and went home?

[Stark]

Actually I got one; nBSG technically has better agility with their tactical FTL, but they have neither the range nor the output to kill LoGH. So it's not entirely a wash with FTL-capables.

[Vympel]

How do you know what the range was in that episode of B5? They shot at literally nothing visible at all,

My memory is foggy, but I'm pretty sure its been gone over before and it was about 700km or so.

not ships that mysteriously glow like stars for no reason.

As I said, there's no reason to believe the ships are visible at some of the extreme ranges that have been stated in the show.

They also coordianted fire from several ships onto a target maybe 100m across; nothing like this is ever seen in LoGH.

Big whoop? Indeed, what LOGH fleets do is 'artillery fire' whereby all their beams combined and annihilate entire groups of enemy ships at once.

Frankly aiming would be counter-productive; turning the ship to aim anywhere except 'pretty much straight ahead' would only increase the relative target profile and result in greater casualties. What aiming is going on is probably more ships jockeying around laterally than anything else.

You don't need to turn the ship to aim. Why do you think the gunners have displays and joysticks? The 'lenses' of the guns can obviously be adjusted.

And sorry, you have now ignored repeatedly (from two people) that B5 ships can charge jump engines in a few minutes.

I haven't ignored it. It's laughable to think that their puny little fleets would survive for a few minutes, even if they thought to attempt this tactic, which they won't. And this isn't an answer to why no ships ever jump in to catch enemy ships flat footed, even if they're dumb and think jumping out again won't help them.

It isn't fought this way in B5 because its stupid to do so when people can follow you or if you're damaged, due to the nature of spooky red hyperspace.

Why is it stupid to perform hit and run surprise attacks if the enemy can follow you? Especially when the charging of your jump drive and their jump drive will never be uniform amongst your ships?

Obviously this is not the case in LoGH. The Minbari (and thus Whitestars, even later human ships) have pretty decent accuracy jump-wise, easily enough to be on the right side of a giant line of ships. Hell, B5 ships are even designed with 360 degree firepower (and heavy aft firepower) because of the nature of jump drives. This is my whole point; that a universe's drive and weapon limiations shape combat.

I guess you'd call it 'winning' if B5 was driven off only inflicting a few thousand destroyed ships on LoGH before they got bored and went home?

ROFL. How are their piss-ant little fleets are going to inflict thousands of casulaties on a fleet many times their size before they're blow to smithereens? That would pretty much require the enemy fleet to just sit there and do nothing. It's getting pretty silly that you keep assuming a wimpy little B5 fleet has the same level of combat effectiveness as fleets literally 1,000 times their size.

[Stark]

I don't know if you've ever watched LoGH, but they sit there and do nothing A LOT. When flanked, if not order to re-orient (which would be suicide if the front is still under pressure but whatever) they just sit there and get popped by the thousand. By the time the reports get passed to Relaxing Emotional Hairman, they can leave. This is all straight from the shows.

I'm frankly stunned that you declare that its impossible for B5 ships to use jumps tactically, when they do this in the actual show.

Even if you want to intentionally miss my point because you love LoGH so much and have an actual vs debate here instead of my repeatedly stated 'tactics shaped by technology tactical FTL = win' premise, B5's superior strategic agility will also cause them problems, again since the way war is conducted in LoGH invovles front lines that will now not exist. This is all typical scifi vs stuff, which is apparently now not applicable. I've never seen SW use tactical hyperjumps either, remember? At least B5 shows it!

Look, Vympel, I know you really like this show for some reason, but that doesn't mean you get to say 'when the Narn said 'get out of here' they meant 'pffft never run away this won't work in B5''.

EDIT - Vymp, what do you mean by combining their beams? I've never seen that. Do you mean death-star style, or a really high-density barrage or what?

[Vympel]

I don't know if you've ever watched LoGH, but they sit there and do nothing A LOT. When flanked, if not order to re-orient (which would be suicide if the front is still under pressure but whatever) they just sit there and get popped by the thousand. By the time the reports get passed to Relaxing Emotional Hairman, they can leave. This is all straight from the shows.

If its straight from the shows, why don't you point a single episode to me where such a delay happened? For example, Yang flanked the 11th fleet. The order to turn to starboard from the 11th fleet commander was immediate. They didn't sit there for minutes doing nothing. Why would they? That's suicidal.

I'm frankly stunned that you declare that its impossible for B5 ships to use jumps tactically, when they do this in the actual show.

Note "use jump tactically" doesn't mean "that one time when Minbari warships blew up some Earth ships at the Battle of the Line". Where a fleet has used jumps to gain an advantage, by orientation, against enemy ships, given it'd be a very useful capability to have to be able to just sppear up your enemy's ass, where his weapons aren't?

It just doesn't happen - the ships jump in, pew pew pew until someone wins, the end. The only time they'll jump out is if one side wants to run off (and they're not followed either AFAIK - according to B5 wiki combat in hyperspace doesn't even happen, as its too dangerous) - which is perfectly understandable.

Even if you want to intentionally miss my point because you love LoGH so much and have an actual vs debate here instead of my repeatedly stated 'tactics shaped by technology tactical FTL = win' premise

What I have a problem with is your assertions about B5 and leaping to absurd conclusions like "lol LOGH ships die by the thousands", which is just ridiculous. If B5 fleets were much larger, it would of course be a significant advantage if you could constantly get the drop on your enemy. But they just don't have the numbers to make any sort of impact at all.

B5's superior strategic agility will also cause them problems, again since the way war is conducted in LoGH invovles front lines that will now not exist.

Superior strategic agility? Last I checked, B5 can't totally wreck the GE economy by just blowing up all their jump gates. Or did you forget that not every ship in B5 has jump engines?

This is all typical scifi vs stuff, which is apparently now not applicable. I've never seen SW use tactical hyperjumps either, remember? At least B5 shows it!

Look, Vympel, I know you really like this show for some reason, but that doesn't mean you get to say 'when the Narn said 'get out of here' they meant 'pffft never run away this won't work in B5''.

Running away because you're about to get your ass kicked doesn't establish they have a useful ability to pop into and out of hyperspace to position themselves on a tactical level. And besides, given that their jump engines need time to charge, none of their tiny fleets will survive very long to jump back in.

EDIT - Vymp, what do you mean by combining their beams? I've never seen that. Do you mean death-star style, or a really high-density barrage or what?

IIRC its some sort of weird Death Star style combo. Its a big thick blue beam. Its in the main series at least once and in the Gaiden (3rd Battle of Tiamat) as well.

[Simon_Jester]

The 'artillery fire' seems to me to just be a great many beams concentrated into a small area. If individual beams are visible as bright blue lines, X thousand of them passing through the same volume might very well look like a single beam, not because of any Death Star-like beam combination, but because thousands of beams are moving in parallel through a small space.

Have you even watched the show? They spend fucking ages pew pewing into relatively small volumes jam-packed with multiple layers of ships. If they were using direct fire battles would be far, far shorter (and its likely that they wouldn't be conducted in this way, but whatever).

It is shown that you have not been paying attention to what other people are saying, preferring to rant in isolation. Given this, I do not understand why you even bother to communicate with other people when you could just as well scream in a soundproofed room and you'd perceive the same amount of response.

If you mean "direct fire" in the Lanchester Law sense, there's an obvious reason why they might be firing at known targets and missing. In fact, there are a lot of them, some of which I have already listed. There are ample historical precedents for long range combat with low hit rates and relatively high probability of doing damage on a hit, even when fire was being deliberately aimed with the best available technology. Dreadnought-era naval battles come to mind.

Frankly how anyone can look at their tactical displays (expressly showing envelopment and collapsing flanks) and imagine that they're actually aiming and flanking isn't important is bizarre to me.

Again, it is shown that you have not been paying attention to what other people are saying, preferring to rant in isolation. I still do not understand why you even bother to communicate with other people when you could just as well scream in a soundproofed room and you'd perceive the same amount of response.

As just noted by others (repeatedly), flanking attacks are effective in LoGH when delivered in force. LoGH fleets do not shrivel into dust and blow away the moment half a dozen ships appear on their flank, or even in their midst. There are obvious reasons for this, that even if we accept every bit of your claims about their capabilities, we would still understand.

The fact that you continue to ignore these reasons is further evidence that you are not arguing in good faith, preferring to rant in isolation.

[Commander 598]

A lot of the successful flanking attacks in LoGH were also delivered with the enemy force pinned by a non-flanking force attacking them from the front which is also probably where most of the casualties came from.

[Stark]

If its straight from the shows, why don't you point a single episode to me where such a delay happened? For example, Yang flanked the 11th fleet. The order to turn to starboard from the 11th fleet commander was immediate. They didn't sit there for minutes doing nothing. Why would they? That's suicidal.

Obviously Yang wasn't monologuing at the time?

Note "use jump tactically" doesn't mean "that one time when Minbari warships blew up some Earth ships at the Battle of the Line". Where a fleet has used jumps to gain an advantage, by orientation, against enemy ships, given it'd be a very useful capability to have to be able to just sppear up your enemy's ass, where his weapons aren't?

It just doesn't happen - the ships jump in, pew pew pew until someone wins, the end. The only time they'll jump out is if one side wants to run off (and they're not followed either AFAIK - according to B5 wiki combat in hyperspace doesn't even happen, as its too dangerous) - which is perfectly understandable.

Seriously man, stop saying 'it just doesn't happen'. They can obviously charge their engines in a few minutes, and the whole point of the aft weapons is to allow them to leave without being defenceless.

What I have a problem with is your assertions about B5 and leaping to absurd conclusions like "lol LOGH ships die by the thousands", which is just ridiculous. If B5 fleets were much larger, it would of course be a significant advantage if you could constantly get the drop on your enemy. But they just don't have the numbers to make any sort of impact at all.

I've said this a bunch of times, but I wasn't after a vs; the point was that LoGH has shit agility and anyone wiht better agility (well, except nBSG) will kick their asses tactically. I don't know why you have a problem with this; you even just admitted its important!

Superior strategic agility? Last I checked, B5 can't totally wreck the GE economy by just blowing up all their jump gates. Or did you forget that not every ship in B5 has jump engines?

Aha, but like with SW vs ST we can say that LoGH won't even be able to find the jumpgates without trolling over there first. I think B5 ships use gates when available even if they have drives due to fuel, but maybe they use them preferentially so that their drive is still charged for an escape if necessary. I don't want to watch the damn show again...

Running away because you're about to get your ass kicked doesn't establish they have a useful ability to pop into and out of hyperspace to position themselves on a tactical level. And besides, given that their jump engines need time to charge, none of their tiny fleets will survive very long to jump back in.

Arguably they don't have to survive very long; assuming they can get a fleet together large enough to matter and emerge in an advantageous position (where the column will shield them from 90% of the enemy fleet), on exit to hyperspace they could just stroll back to Earth and refit while the LoGH fleet tries to work out what happened.

Ugh, actually it occurs to me that I'm doing that thing where B5 knows where the LoGH guys are but not vice versa. Blah, this is what you and your 'debating' does to people! The strategic level isn't relevant to my point about the significance of tactical FTL in battle.

IIRC its some sort of weird Death Star style combo. Its a big thick blue beam. Its in the main series at least once and in the Gaiden (3rd Battle of Tiamat) as well.

Oh... that's a 'special move' in the LoGH RTS game. I actually thought they'd just added that in for J-RTS stuff.

[SAMAS]

Seriously man, stop saying 'it just doesn't happen'. They can obviously charge their engines in a few minutes, and the whole point of the aft weapons is to allow them to leave without being defenceless.

I think he's disputing the utility of such. Imperial and Alliance ships aren't exactly slow. What good is being able to charge your engine in a few minutes if the enemy can acquire you in a few seconds?

I've said this a bunch of times, but I wasn't after a vs; the point was that LoGH has shit agility and anyone wiht better agility (well, except nBSG) will kick their asses tactically. I don't know why you have a problem with this; you even just admitted its important!

Actually, they don't to too badly for agility. Ships have been shown making 90-degree turns in two to three seconds, and in the (4th) Battle of Tiamat, Yang was able to bring a cruiser directly underneath Reinhard's flagship in the middle of his own fleet.

This is probably an example of conditions of warfare determining the tactics. You can't move a whole lot on your own volition when you're in a formation that resembles a galaxy at a distance.

And as stated before, LoGH's combat isn't any less "agile" than 90% of visual Sci-Fi out there. They just have the sense to fight at more realistic space combat ranges. And out of those other 10%, few of them have the numbers or firepower advantage to beat them, either.

Superior strategic agility? Last I checked, B5 can't totally wreck the GE economy by just blowing up all their jump gates. Or did you forget that not every ship in B5 has jump engines?

Aha, but like with SW vs ST we can say that LoGH won't even be able to find the jumpgates without trolling over there first.

That's what reconnaissance ships are for.

Arguably they don't have to survive very long; assuming they can get a fleet together large enough to matter and emerge in an advantageous position (where the column will shield them from 90% of the enemy fleet), on exit to hyperspace they could just stroll back to Earth and refit while the LoGH fleet tries to work out what happened.

Which of course glosses over the fact that they can't get a fleet to matter. Even if they could shield themselves from 90% of the fleet, they'd still be outnumbered and outgunned by that last 10%.

[Connor MacLeod]

two points:

1.) Jump point tactics - regardless what has been done with them specifically in B5, one common trait has been that you need a scout or spotter in realspace to guide ships back into realspace (or something acting in that effect) I vaguely remember that B5 ships cannot scan realspace form hyperspace (or vice versa) and we know that Hyperspace is full of nasty currents that can pull a ship off course ("off the beacon") whereupon they are irrevocably lost (EG the Younger Races can't just navigate to any particular point in hyperspace at will save perhaps the White Stars, they require the beacon network from the jumpgates to navigate by). Either point (or both together) will severely limit the ability to attack from hyperspace since it will dictate that the enemy be lured into position. And we have seen this repeatedly in the series: Season 4 (Ivanova's White Star at Coriana 6, acting as scout for the Army of Light), during the Earth Civil War (They needed someone acting as spotter on Mars for the White STar to come out in Mars's atmosphere precisely, as I recall. LYa and another did this.) and most notably in In the Beginning (The Black Star using a transport as bait to lure an Earthforce fleet into position.)

2.) Weapons range. Upper limit in the show (various) was 10,000 km from Crusade (Excalibur's secondary guns), and Legend of the Rangers (Hand and Liandra ships). Moreover both cases indicated that at those max ranges weapons fire was severely weakened (10% normal strength at 10K km in Legend of the Rangers, as I recall) and even more to the point, this may be beam weapons range - pulse weapons tend to move alot more slowly and may have a shorter range. The "Narn BVR" example was from "The Long, Twilight Struggle" and was explicitly mentioned (at least once if not twice) by JMS commentary online as being a distance of like a few thousand km or so.

Range is going to be a nasty detriment in that the LOGH forces don't have to get anywhere NEAR as close to the B5 side in order to fight, which makes luring them into a pre-planned position to execute jump point attacks difficult, to say the least.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Maybe someone should create a 'LotGH vs B5/whatever else' thread. This subject seems intriguing.