The Tax Cut Endgame

[darkwolf29a]

He's a politician. That's his job.

That's how he did it....And he did it to all of us.

Unfortunately, we can't get a vote of no confidence for everyone in Wshington. Honestly...the ONLY thing I reasonably sure that any of these idiots can do...is screw things up worse than they are right now.

Elections have gone this way for me since the early 90s... pick the lesser of two evils. Obama vs McCain... that lesser part was VERY hard to find.

I wish there was a way to tell both parties...we don't believe in you anymore and want new parties with new candidates.

Sometimes a little revolution can be a good thing.

[Soontir C'boath]

At least one of my senators, Kirstan Gillibrand, was among the few who voted no. Should've done a write-in for Schumer's seat.

Obama's type of compromise is giving up the main course of his policy for the republicans to give up crumbs or gain significant things they wanted to get the thing passed. It's retarded.

[Mr Bean]

Obama's type of compromise is giving up the main course of his policy for the republicans to give up crumbs or gain significant things they wanted to get the thing passed. It's retarded.

Except it's not

Does anyone think that the Republican Senators really personally wanted to kill the unemployment extension?
Speaking privately to senators or when Senators are speaking to others the answer is no. In fact when Jim Bunning held up the unemployment extension he was lambasted by both the the left and the right. Both sides came out against him and called what he was doing unconscionable. Except... what the Senator was doing was holding up the bill in order to get concessions out of the Dem's. Which he did, and that clued in the Republicans that they could do just that and they have done just that here. Make no mistake, the Republicans liked 100% of the initial Obama "compromise" because it contained 100% of what they wanted.

The phrase negotiating with hostage takers comes to mind. Congratulations Obama your looking to out-do Carter on weakness.

[Soontir C'boath]

Yes, it's been universally said that the unemployment extension was favored by both sides and would be political suicide for them to say no. I am speaking about things like the keeping of tax cuts for the rich and for past things like removing the public option in health care which were among the main things Obama was gunning for.

There's no question Obama caved when he didn't have to.

[Mr Bean]

Yes, it's been universally said that the unemployment extension was favored by both sides and would be political suicide for them to say no. I am speaking about things like the keeping of tax cuts for the rich and for past things like removing the public option in healthcare.

There's no question Obama caved when he didn't have to.

See this is where I'd say, it's not a cave, it's a complete surrender. If he had caved then something would have been added to a bill already written that he liked. (IE extending all tax cuts under 250k) if he had caved then you would have seen something like all tax cuts under 1 million being extended. But if you extend all tax cuts everywhere your going for the Republican position.

As Cenk over at the Young Turks pointed out yesterday, these tax cuts had to pass a 50-50 with VP Dick casting the tie breaking vote in the Senate. Now they have passed 80-19. What a difference nine years makes.

[Thanas]

He apparently hopes that if he shows the GOP goodwill now, he will get some in return later. He also apparently believes he tried to do the best to get a deal out of difficult circumstances.

I can't fault him for trying, but what I can fault him for is making a deal at all.

[Mr Bean]

He apparently hopes that if he shows the GOP goodwill now, he will get some in return later. He also apparently believes he tried to do the best to get a deal out of difficult circumstances.

I can't fault him for trying, but what I can fault him for is making a deal at all.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results - Ben Franklin, Albert Einstein or possibly Rita Mae Brown

How has showing the GOP goodwill gained him anything? How has the previous eight time (Stimulus, DISCLOSE Act, American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, VA Heath Care, VA Education Bill, Cap and Trade, Heathcare Bill, Fair Sentencing Act) has going to the Republicans and loading up each bill with special things the Republicans like from spending they like to earmarks to weaking of the bills in hopes of getting Republican votes.

The number of votes in total each of those bills got can be counted on one hand and Cap and Trade out and out failed after getting Republican "help"
So why does try 9 does he expect things to be different?

[Dominus Atheos]

Okay, then here is a new question.

How the hell did Obama fool all of us like this? I mean none of us are perfect, but we all took Obama rather clearly for someone he clearly isn't.

He ran a campaign that was built entirely on the idea of bringing in change, on taking on special interests and entrenched politics with the full force and vigger he showed on the campaign trail, of being willing to work with Republicans, BUT pointing to Bush and his Administration as the epitome of all that was wrong with the United States Government.

He got into office on a huge wave of popular support, with a clear mandate to GET THINGS DONE...

...

Was it all just smoke and mirrors? That he had a brilliant campaign planned out well in advance for the election and he just had to follow it, but when it came to living in a dynamic world, he can't hack it? I could see him trying honestly to reach out and work with the other side if thats the kind of person he is, at least for 4-6 months, but after that, saying "Okay, you don't want to work with me? Fine. Prepare to die" and going on the offensive.

What the hell is this "all of us" stuff? I voted for McCain for exactly these reasons. In fact I accurately predicted everything that has happened in the past two years.

Conservatism is clearly falling out of favor with the American electorate, but it's probably only temporary. American voters have a very short memory, and by 2012 they probably won't remember why they felt that way. But if the economy is allowed to crash badly enough that every family feels it, feels it for a long time, and it happens under a republican president, that might be enough to burn this feeling into the mind of every voter. Of course the democrats have to appear as a viable alternative, and if they keep up their current strategy of rolling over every opportunity they get (I think the $700b giveaway would have been an excellent opportunity to start), then they won't.

Hell, if Obama had the spine to, he could start using the word conservative as an insult right now. It would probably go over pretty well in this political climate. All he has to do is repeat some buzzwords like "Socialism for the rich, free market for the poor" or "steal from the poor to feed the rich", and they would probably catch on. Just copy the strategy of the right.

As I said, I believe a McCain presidency cause a domino effect that would do more good in the long run then a Obama campaign. (who would probably just roll over for for the republicans in the name of "unity" and "compromise" and "bringing the country together" and not subscribing to "divisive politics" anyway)

So I'm hoping the 2012 democratic candidate will be a real candidate, and not a wishy washy push over like Kerry or Obama. I'm worried if Obama wins, the democrats might keep fielding candidates like them. That's the biggest reason I support John McCain.

My hope is that people wise up after another 4 years and the impending economic crash J, Her Grace, and the Admiral keep predicting which will be caused by the housing crisis caused by the deregulation of the market by republicans, the exploding deficit caused by the Iraq War and drunken sailor-like spending by the bush administration... After all those things happen, and if the Democrats can come out swinging and make sure the republicans get all the blame they deserve, they'll be swept out of office and running on a republican ticket will be a poison in almost every state in the union.

I'm betting on (and do realize it's a bet and not guaranteed) this loss galvanizing the Democrats and turning them into a real opposition party, instead of one who's reaction to being told to jump by the republicans is to turn around, drop their pants, bend over and ask "Before I do that, would you like to fuck me up the ass?" Having a real opposition party would do wonders for the political process in this country. We all know all the terrible things republicans do and all the reasons not to vote for them because we have several dozen members who watch liberal blogs and websites and post things they find here so we can all know about them, but no one mentions them in the "mainstream" news, so the vast majority don't know about them.

If someone was willing to mention how Palin, after (quoting broomy here) "having her water break and, instead of going to a doctor/hospital like a normal women, she really did give a speech then board an airplane for a 6 hour flight back to Alaska followed by a 45 minute drive to give birth to a high-risk baby a month prematurely in a suburban clinic" they might be a lot less willing to vote for her. But no one does because "family is off-limits." Or how McCain finished 800-somethingth in his class at the air force academy and then went on to crash 5 planes, but "John Mcain served his country well, and we don't want to devalue that." Or how after he got back from his captivity in vietnam and his wife who had been a supermodel when they had been married had been in a car accident as was a lot less attractive, he cheated on her, divorced her, then filed for marriage to an heiress worth hundreds of millions, and all before the first wife had completed physical therepy because "we don't want to run a smear campaign."

I was watching the news the other day and apparently the Democratic party leadership decided not to bring S-CHIP up for a vote anytime before the end of the year. They are refusing to bring up a piece of legislation that would tax smokers and give the money to poor, sick children, is supported by something like 80% of the public, and which the republican party strongly opposes. There are no words for that kind of incompetence. Anyone who votes against it would look like a cold-hearted bastard who puts the wishes of his party and big business above the needs of poor sick children, and the Democrats refuse to bring it up for a vote. They clearly don't want to win, so why should I vote for them?

# I think if someone who a lot of liberals (myself included up until just recently) look to as their savior loses, especially narrowly, then they will finally learn what sort of tactics it takes to win an election, and nominate someone in 2012 who is willing to do them.
# I think if someone who is willing to go after McCain on the issues I've listed previously in the thread, they would probably win by 10% or more.
# I think that if after Kerry's and Obama's loss, someone is elected by that kind of margin the Democratic party will finally get it through their thick skulls that the key to beating the republicans isn't to compromise with them (that is, roll over on every issue), but to attack them.
# I think that if democrats start attacking republicans on all their reprehensible, heinous and flagrant shit that they pull, it isn't going to fly nearly as well as it has been.

Obviously there's no guarantee any of that will definitely happen if Obama loses, but I think that there is enough of a chance that it is worth it to support McCain in 2008.

I don't think the country stands a chance of being fixed unless the democrats grow some stones, and I don't see that happening if Obama wins. Regardless of the changes Obama brings to the presidency (and I think the republicans are going to fight him every step of the way, especially since it doesn't look like the Dems are going to get a fillibuster-proof majority after the idiotic leadership refused to bring S-CHIP up for a vote), I don't think it's going to bring any change to our political process. I think "Deregulation increasing company profits and strengthening our economy", "Tax cuts for the rich trickling down to the middle class" and etc. arguments will have the same effects they have now, and nothing will change.

Plus, DA, as some people have mentioned, a lot of another Republican Administration like George W. Bush's policies would have very long-lasting effects. The most prominent, of course, is if McCain wins and appoints another conservative justice to the Court. If that happens, you can pretty much kiss Roe v. Wade goodbye, and that would only be the first. And those justices would probably be there for a while; aside from Antonio Scalia, the other three "conservative" justices are fairly young, in their forties and fifties. They could easily sit on the Court for another 20-30 years if they want to.

I'm well aware it is going to be a hard 4 years, and after that it could be very hard to fix the country, but what's to stop the next republican president from doing the same thing? If the Democrats think that Obama's tactics are the key to winning an election and keep employing them, eventually another arch-conservative republican will be elected, and will do all those things you just listed. (AN: Or Obama may just do them himself)

It might be possible to fix the country right now, but what's stopping it from braking again the next time an arch-conservative gets into office? Any fixes we apply would only last that long. If Obama loses and the Democrats grow a backbone, we may never have to worry about an arch-conservative getting into office again.

Although I admit even I thought Obama would be able to get us out of this hole, and not just make it worse. I suppose if we had looked a little more closely at his economic team we might have been able to predict it.