"Cloning tech" appears in WH40K

[Todeswind]

On the psychic plane, the Emperor is also quite powerful compared to the Chaos gods; bear in mind that he has managed to keep an entire galactic civilization from being eaten by them for something like ten thousand years.

So he's as powerful as Chaos Undivided, and more powerful than any of the individual Chaos Gods?

He's certainly powerful. Even in his only semi-concious state he was capable of destroying a star system with his brain. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_o ... %27s_Wrath

As to "more powerful" or "less powerful" I'm not sure how one would go about quantifying that.

[Aaron]

When you get right down to it, Chaos is more or less a contained threat as far as the Imperium is concerned; were it not for the numerous other problems they have (not least among them being their own dysfunctional, decapitated power structure), Chaos alone they could deal with fairly well. It's having to fight Chaos and orks and the endless machinations of the Eldar at their expense and the rising threats of the Necrons and Tyranids that are causing them so much trouble.

IMO one of the primary causes of the Imperium's problems is that their long-range travel and communication is dependant on the Warp. They have trouble bringing their forces, or enough of them anyways, quick enough to bear.

Yeah, thats why the Emperor was buggering around in his lab with the Webway.

[PainRack]

There appears to be a trend towards establishing Forge and other manufactories to involve human labour as opposed to automated/servitors under supervision of techpriests and human acolytes.

How did you establish that this trend exists ?

Both Dan Abnett Forge World novel, or Gaunt Ghost invasion of Forge worlds had populations in the millions if not larger, capable of fielding Chaos twisted armies raised from cultists in the populace.

In 2nd edition, the worlds were described to be literally fully automated with a smattering of techpriests to supervise them.

[Lonestar]

Both Dan Abnett Forge World novel, or Gaunt Ghost invasion of Forge worlds had populations in the millions if not larger, capable of fielding Chaos twisted armies raised from cultists in the populace.

In 2nd edition, the worlds were described to be literally fully automated with a smattering of techpriests to supervise them.

I think that varies. There's a Ravenor novel where a planet is suffering an economic downturn because of increased automation.

[Purple]

Firstly, generalization just does not work in 40K.
No single forge world is the same as the others. One might do everything with manual labor from slaves imported from the nearby hive while its neighbor might be having fully automated factories overseen by just 1 man.

The entire point in 40K is that what ever you can imagine being there probably is out there somewhere.

[white_rabbit]

Painrack
Both Dan Abnett Forge World novel, or Gaunt Ghost invasion of Forge worlds had populations in the millions if not larger, capable of fielding Chaos twisted armies raised from cultists in the populace.

In 2nd edition, the worlds were described to be literally fully automated with a smattering of techpriests to supervise them.

Why are you always full of shit ?

How is this a bloody trend worth commenting about ? You've got literally two examples to contrast with the description of industrial worlds from rogue trader
and 2nd edition rulebooks. They weren't actually described as forgeworlds in any of those entries I've mentioned either. The 2nd edition rulebook does refer to the mechanicus claiming some worlds as Forge Worlds, but only in the context of them making bases for the Titan legions.

If anything, we've simply got vastly more information, so we know that Forgeworlds are graded by their level of sophistication and automation. (dark adeptus refers to this) You also have no concept what "sparsely populated " means in the context described either.

Guess what ? a billion guys on an entire planet might actually qualify as "sparsely populated"

Don't come to a conclusion and work backwards, you are paraphrasing quotes, not looking at the specifics, never mind you are extrapolating from literally two examples.

[Connor MacLeod]

On the psychic plane, the Emperor is also quite powerful compared to the Chaos gods; bear in mind that he has managed to keep an entire galactic civilization from being eaten by them for something like ten thousand years.

So he's as powerful as Chaos Undivided, and more powerful than any of the individual Chaos Gods?

Consistently more powerful is probably a better word. Some of the Chaos Gods (Nurgle and Tzeentch notably) tend to fluctuate in power depending on various factors, so they may be stronger in some times but weaker in others. Khorne is perhaps the most consistent of the Chaos gods (as War and bloodshed and violence goes on everywhere), but he's also not the most subtle of enemies (The Emperor, on the other hand, at least can match wits with Tzeentch even if he cannot always win - look at the novel Eye of Terror for a prime example.)

Another factor is the fact that it's not just "Chaos and the Emperor" involved there either. There are the Ork Gods (although only when they wake up/are active, usually during a WAAAGH!) and there is the Tyranid Hive Mind (although whether its a sentient, active god-type is debatable. It could be wholly passive lacking any sort of "crtiical mass" of sentience.) The interweavings of other Gods (and having to deal with them) can also throw off attempts to precisely quanitfy the GEoM's psychic might relative to other gods. CErtainly he is at LEAST as powerful as one or two gods, if not all combined. Certainly the Horus Heresy would imply that.

[Purple]

The issue with the Chaos gods is that they seem to be based mostly in the warp (what a surprise). That means that they don't seem to be able to project a good percentage of their power into the mortal realm. And any host, even Horus him self has his limits.

The Emperor on the other hand is based in the materium and as such can focus his entire power in it easily. That is why he can create warp storms to destroy entire systems and stuff.

He does not have to be stronger than them to keep them at bay, only stronger than the portion of their power they can devote into the materium.

[PainRack]

Why are you always full of shit ?

How is this a bloody trend worth commenting about ? You've got literally two examples to contrast with the description of industrial worlds from rogue trader
and 2nd edition rulebooks. They weren't actually described as forgeworlds in any of those entries I've mentioned either. The 2nd edition rulebook does refer to the mechanicus claiming some worlds as Forge Worlds, but only in the context of them making bases for the Titan legions.

If anything, we've simply got vastly more information, so we know that Forgeworlds are graded by their level of sophistication and automation. (dark adeptus refers to this) You also have no concept what "sparsely populated " means in the context described either.

Guess what ? a billion guys on an entire planet might actually qualify as "sparsely populated"

Don't come to a conclusion and work backwards, you are paraphrasing quotes, not looking at the specifics, never mind you are extrapolating from literally two examples.

Oh fuck off WR. The two examples are just those that come STRAIGHT off from my head as opposed to doing an indepth, novel search of the whole freaking Black Library.

I could ALSO point out that Mars have a population nof 20,000,000,000, but hey, who's counting?

I could ALSO point out that Jupiter has a workforce of MILLIONS in the Jovian shipyards.

I could ALSO point out that Gryphonne IV pre Nid had a population of 8,520,000,000.

But hey fuck you WR for simply deciding to be a dick.

And what does sparsely populated in the context mean? Here's an idea. Highly. Automated. Factories. Not one where they have a HUGE labour force responsible for churning out vehicles, weapons and ammunition.

[white_rabbit]

Oh fuck off WR. The two examples are just those that come STRAIGHT off from my head as opposed to doing an indepth, novel search of the whole freaking Black Library.

I asked you what information led you to believe there was a "trend" and you posted those examples, you didn't say anything about how they were off the cuff, and that you had lots more, you just posted two pieces of information.

Listen shithead, if you want to continue crying about this, feel free, it makes no difference to me, but don't expect me to be fucking psychic.

Incidentally, if you were going to support your argument, searching the available material might be a good start.

I could ALSO point out that Mars have a population nof 20,000,000,000, but hey, who's counting?

I could ALSO point out that Jupiter has a workforce of MILLIONS in the Jovian shipyards.

I could ALSO point out that Gryphonne IV pre Nid had a population of 8,520,000,000.

How exactly does this establish a "trend" ? Mars was the first Hive world even back in second edition, as well as being a (the) forge world, so your concept that forge worlds have changed from labour intensive to fully automated is STILL bollocks if you are claiming this is some sort of proof of high populations in all forge worlds.

The same applies to these other examples, this trend only exists in your fucking brain Painrack.

Understand what I'm saying Painrack, I'm not saying all forgeworlds are still sparsely populated, (except they weren't, even if we assume the industrial worlds and the forge worlds evidence can be combined from that era) blah fucking blah, I'm saying your conclusions are essentially made up.

And what does sparsely populated in the context mean? Here's an idea. Highly. Automated. Factories. Not one where they have a HUGE labour force responsible for churning out vehicles, weapons and ammunition.

You are still a fucking retard. Why does "highly automated" mean that there isn't still a labour force in the millions for example ?

You are making statements devoid of context and quantification. How automated is highly automated ?

As I said before, a planet sized factory would still be sparsely populated, with a minimal labour force, as well as being highly automated, if it had millions. You don't seem to understand the scale we are talking about here.

But hey fuck you WR for simply deciding to be a dick.

Stop whining, go think about what you are posting.

[PainRack]

WTF are you now smoking about WR? Seriously.

I pointed out that there appears to be a trend that more and more forge worlds are depicted as using human labour as opposed to the fully automated, low labour work force for industrial worlds depicted in 2nd edt.

As FUCKING PROOF, I pointed out direct examples of TWO forge worlds where a huge human labour force is used. You asked for more? I provided it in the sense that there are more forge worlds out there which has a quantitatively high number of people on it.

Your counter-argument is that.... this isn't a trend. Forge worlds are a mix of highly automated plants and plants with a large labour force.... convienently sidestepping that my argument isn't that Forge Worlds don't have a mix of highly automated plants and labour intensive factories, but rather, we are being shown more and more factories with large labour intensive factories as opposed to highly automated manufactories.

Hey? Let's do go on a roll shall we?
Meridian from Dawn of War II. There's a difference between the game and the novel, but the novel depiction is... large labour force working in the factories.

Maybe I shall also point out that in Imperial Armor Vol One, the population of a forge world is now described as immense, labouring away in the factories.

Or how some of the Forge worlds depicted in Imperial Armor Vol One like Agripinaa has a population of 80,000,000.

Or are you going to tell me that the so called highly automated worlds in Wh40k was always meant to be relatively underrepresented?

[Darth Nostril]

Seriously, 80 million is labour intensive?
The official population of the United Kindgdom is 60+ million for crying out loud, 80 mil across an entire planet is nothing, that would barely be enough to supervise the systems.

[white_rabbit]

WTF are you now smoking about WR? Seriously.

Hah, even your whining retorts are shit.

I pointed out that there appears to be a trend that more and more forge worlds are depicted as using human labour as opposed to the fully automated, low labour work force for industrial worlds depicted in 2nd edt.

As FUCKING PROOF, I pointed out direct examples of TWO forge worlds where a huge human labour force is used. You asked for more? I provided it in the sense that there are more forge worlds out there which has a quantitatively high number of people on it.

Your counter-argument is that.... this isn't a trend. Forge worlds are a mix of highly automated plants and plants with a large labour force.... convienently sidestepping that my argument isn't that Forge Worlds don't have a mix of highly automated plants and labour intensive factories, but rather, we are being shown more and more factories with large labour intensive factories as opposed to highly automated manufactories.

Firstly, the industrial worlds in the 2nd edition book weren't forgeworlds, the Mechanicus forgeworlds were referred to as Titan bases, and the Uber-forge world itself was a massive hive as well.

My argument is that you are coming to conclusions based on extremely limited information, and in some cases, your own daft ideas. As someone has just pointed out again, you've no concept of a scale, a planetary scale factory staffed by millions would by any sense of the phrase, be sparsely populated. It doesn't even factor in whether or not servitors are counted in terms of population either, since they've taken the place of robots that were occasionally mentioned in earlier background.

You're trying to use sources from different eras as if you can simply compare them without taking into account the differences in the background.

Forgeworlds haven't gradually become depicted more and more as having a large labour pool, some of the earliest mentions of them have a large labour pool.

We again go back to Forgeworlds often being very different, and having differing levels of development, and the best bit is, even with every example of a forgeworld depicted factored in, you're still looking at a tiny percentage of the thousands that exist.

And for fucks sake, how the fuck do you know that there isn't a massive automated factory thumping away on any of the examples of worlds you think are heavy on a labour force. We explicitly know that some tasks are labour intensive, and others are simply automated. Hell, theres even a Forgeworld in the latest deathwatch book that has exactly this division between dumb human labour and automation.

This might not be something you are contesting, its relevant because it means you are waffling about how these forgeworlds "prove" your silly trend, when all they do is show that you are fucking silly, and trying to force the data into nice neat little boxes. How does population scale with output, sophistication, blah blah, context, details, information we don't have ? you're a fucking idiot. etc.

As far as your proof goes. I asked you how you established this trend existed, and you posted two examples of Forgeworlds with populations that passed some imaginary fucking goalpost in your brain. You then bitched and moaned because I didn't read your fucking mind and divine that you had some more evidence, and hadn't just posted two examples DEVOID OF ANY REFERENCE TO THE REST OF YOUR ARGUMENT.

Hey? Let's do go on a roll shall we?
Meridian from Dawn of War II. There's a difference between the game and the novel, but the novel depiction is... large labour force working in the factories.

Meridian isn't a forgeworld you steaming fuckwit. Guess what ? Hive worlds have always had massive populations performing labour intensive...labour.

What is it supposed to fucking prove ?

Maybe I shall also point out that in Imperial Armor Vol One, the population of a forge world is now described as immense, labouring away in the factories.

Or how some of the Forge worlds depicted in Imperial Armor Vol One like Agripinaa has a population of 80,000,000.

Ho shit, eighty million huh ? As the Nostril Sith just pointed out, this is fucking peanuts. Lets zoom in on your first sentence though.

The population of a forge world is now described as immense, labouring away in the factories.

When wasn't it ?

Or are you going to tell me that the so called highly automated worlds in Wh40k was always meant to be relatively underrepresented?

Please, attain some fucking coherence.

[Connor MacLeod]

Personally I can't really see how this is a "trend", considering the only number being compared is population size, and that one isn't even a specific comparison and more of a generalization, and not even one over time. It also fails to address whether or not output has increased, gone down, stayed the same, or what.

Furthermore, it does not address the manner of products produced or if the same means of production is used across all the Imperium (it's not. Some things are built by hand and others are mass produced in various means. Titans for example are specially buitl and not mass produced, as are Dreadnoughts. By contrast, the bulk of Guard stuff is mass produced, general purpose shit. If anything they often build a surplus of that level of stuff.) We know very little about what tasks they might be used for as well (some of it is general labour of some form, but we also know that many new Mechanicus recruits re often recruited from the populace. For all we know, the point of having the population there is to run the service industries and provide a pool of potential recruits to draw new members from, and the work they do is designed simply to weed out the worthy from the unworthy. Or to provide future servitor material. Or both.)

And of course as others have mentioned, not all Forge Worlds are the same. Nor ar ethey the same as Hive or Industrial worlds. A forge wold could be a forge, hive, and industrial world all together, or only one or two fo those.)

Quite simply, before any "trends" can be established we need far more data than is present (or has been presented.) Of course, since Painrack is the one making the claim, the burden of proof naturally falls upon him.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Actually, what are the differences between forge, hive, and industrial worlds? I believe the big difference between an industrial world and a forge world is who governs it. Using the above mentioned Meridian from DoW II as an example, aside from the references to hives, the fact that the planet has a population of around 32 billiion and appears largley urban would designate it a hive world. Likewise, the fact that it has massive industrial potential via the Angel Forge, yet not being administered by the AdMech would make it an industrial world and not a forge world. So basically Meridian would be an industrial hive world. Is that about right or am I overlooking something in my chain of reasononing such as a subtle nuance regarding the definition of forge worlds?

[Simon_Jester]

So it would seem.

Though most hive worlds will have considerable industrial capacity, just to support their own populations; they'd be useless to the Imperium otherwise because of the lack of resource production. The border between a "hive" and "industrial" world will tend to blur at the edges. "Forge World" is a description pretty much entirely given over to planets that are overwhelmingly controlled by industrial concerns, especially heavy and specialist industry (advanced weapons production, shipyards, etc.)... and governed by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

[fgalkin]

Yeah, Forge Worlds are AdMech worlds exclusively, IIRC. Which is, of course, is more than just a really productive industrial world- the whole culture and way of life are different, everyone worships the Omnissiah, etc. A forge worlder and an industrial worlder come from two very different cultures.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[madd0ct0r]

Wing commander - can you get non-industrial forge worlds? they're an option by your method.

I'd be tempted to argue that an Industrial World has a reasonably evenly spread population, making it's (heavy) industry the most significant thing about it. Like old detroit on a global scale.

A hive World has multiple huge Hives, typically extending upwards and downwards many miles. Between the Hives is normally wasteland, often contaminated, dangerous or both.

By it's very nature though, the Hive world must surely have a large industrial capacity?
(I can think of two exceptions immediately - Administrum Worlds and Shrine Worlds - any industrial capacity they have serves their own population only, and is not part of the tithe. Maybe then Hive worlds are those that include people (troops and settlers) in their tithe? it would fit with the method of classing a world for it's main product)

[Purple]

Another thing to consider is that the production capabilities of an Industrial World are limited in that the Admech has control over many STC templates. So even if an Industrial World had the same capabilities in terms of factories and other production facilities as a forge it would still not be able to build things like Power Armor, Dreadnoughts and Titans.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, what are the differences between forge, hive, and industrial worlds? I believe the big difference between an industrial world and a forge world is who governs it. Using the above mentioned Meridian from DoW II as an example, aside from the references to hives, the fact that the planet has a population of around 32 billiion and appears largley urban would designate it a hive world. Likewise, the fact that it has massive industrial potential via the Angel Forge, yet not being administered by the AdMech would make it an industrial world and not a forge world. So basically Meridian would be an industrial hive world. Is that about right or am I overlooking something in my chain of reasononing such as a subtle nuance regarding the definition of forge worlds?

Hive Worlds by and large seem to be defined by the presence of hives with a large population density. They may or may not have habitable surfaces (either natrually or artificially hostile to life, the latter being the result of pollution for example.) and they may or may not have their own natural resources to draw on (As a rule, it dpeends on the tech level, recycling ability, and age of the hive. Younger hives are less likely to be "tapped out.") Their large populations and relatively sophisticated technical level are meant to give them prodigious industrial capacity for their size (IIRC the Necromunda allusions, each Hive on Necromunda is potentially capable of matching a whole world's goods production on its own, assuming sufficient materials are provided.) They are also more or less soldier factories - the large populace and somewhat uncivilized/violent nature (especially the underhive) with again the relatively high tech level tends to make them ideal soldiers (and its not like they'll be missed numbers wise.)

Forge worlds, like Hive Worlds, have prodigious industrial capability (matching or exceeding hive worlds), but they differ more than just the fact they are AdMech domains. Forge Worlds are also baisclaly the R&D centres (or what passes for Research, at least) in the Imperium, and repositories for its knowledge. They won't just produce weapons and gear, they may look into biological aspects, computers, etc. Also, the sort of equipment they produce is arguably more sophisticate dand may be more technologically advanced than stuff produced on a Hive World (EG power armor, bigger starships, and Titans are all produced only on forge worlds for the most part.)

Industrial worlds are a holdover from much earlier editions. Technically they don't seem to exist (directly) in modern source, but back then they were basically the "sparsely populated, self sufficient" worlds that either manufactured goods or mined/refined materials for manufacturing. THey were, fr all intents and purposes, a variant of the "civilised" category althought hat is not a hard and fast rule (you could have a hive world that is also an industrial world, fo example.)

[Wing Commander MAD]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Simon_Jester]

It seems unlikely that every inhabited planet in the galaxy with manufacturing capacity would be a hive world; "industrial worlds" would no doubt exist in some numbers to supply resources to the hives. There are bound to be cases where the environment, government policy, or ease of trade simply don't support turning the planet into a handful of megalopolises separated by barren wilderness.

[Lancer]

It seems unlikely that every inhabited planet in the galaxy with manufacturing capacity would be a hive world; "industrial worlds" would no doubt exist in some numbers to supply resources to the hives. There are bound to be cases where the environment, government policy, or ease of trade simply don't support turning the planet into a handful of megalopolises separated by barren wilderness.

Check out Pavonis (from Nightbringer). An Imperial world dominated by several hereditary trade groups. It's by no means a hive or forge world, and yet it has significant industrial capabilities to the point that several of the cartels equipped their house forces with native-made knock-offs of Imperial Guard equipment (such as the Leman Russ).