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Without getting involved in the debate at large here, I'll just point out that Kamino has popped up in the EU at least once (in Battlefront II).

After the formation of the Empire, the Kaminoans were... unimpressed with the direction the galaxy was headed in. So they made another army of Fett clones and staged the Kaminoan Rebellion. The army of 'Anti-troopers' were slaughtered, as they were made in a shorter timeframe and lacked the real-life battle experience held by the original Clones. At this point, Palpatine decided that it was too risky to have an entire army made from a single template, and clones produced from then on (using Spaarti cloning, IIRC) were made using a large number of different templates.

As I said, I'm not interested in getting into this debate in a major way, just thought I'd share the info. I would strongly recommend playing Battlefront II for anyone interested in learning about the Clone Troopers' point of view. As has been pointed out in this thread, it gave a somewhat unique insight.

Darth Tedious wrote: After the formation of the Empire, the Kaminoans were... unimpressed with the direction the galaxy was headed in. So they made another army of Fett clones and staged the Kaminoan Rebellion. The army of 'Anti-troopers' were slaughtered, as they were made in a shorter timeframe and lacked the real-life battle experience held by the original Clones.

Those "Anti-trooper" clones sound more like tragic figures, heroes even to fight against the Empire unlike their earlier brethren who continued to serve Palpatine as the jackbooted thugs of the Empire.

Jim Raynor wrote: Another unsupported statement. You seem to live off of them.

Ah, Jim, but you are a laugh and a half. You complain about my supposedly unsupported statements then turn around and give the same. Too funny!

Some choice examples:

Jim Raynor wrote:The Kaminoans are good and honest. The Clones were honest too, and raised to be completely loyal to the Republic. This was vouched for by Obi-Wan, a Jedi who can read minds and detect emotions. Who Yoda obviously agreed with, after his own inspection later in the movie.

Unsupported except by assumptions. We were told by one who knew them that the Kaminoans were a group that could be dangerous if you didn't watch your manners or have a big enough pocketbook. Not exactly the stuff of goodness and honesty. As for the Clones being honest, we have nothing to go on by that. They did their job which was to fight a fake war so Palpatine could gain more power and then one day turn on their Jedi superiors. We saw nothing of Yodi's inspection of the clones nor did we hear of any knowledge that he gained so there was nothing obvious about it except that there needed to be a cavalry arrival scene with Yoda near the end of the film.

Jim Raynor wrote:

Dooku works for Sidious whom we all know and love as Palpatine. And all of this took place around the time he became chancellor. All answers point to Palpatine being behind the clone order in the first place and thus would have had some influence on them from their inception.

Nice unsupported statement. "All answers point to Palpatine." What answers, which were actually revealed to the characters within the movie?

Like Havok you are confusing the point. All answers point to Palpatine in that we the audience can easily see that Palpatine put in the order for the clones to begin with therefore he would have had something to do with their making - this going back to the nature of the clones being either willingly evil or programmed like some kind of droid.

For the Jedi all answers with the clones pointed to Count Dooku who was working against the Republic. A dead Jedi orders a clone army, the model for the clone works for Dooku, the planet was erased from the Jedi archives which only a Jedi could have done. Dooku was a former Jedi and presumably would have had access to those records. They should have been suspicious of a trap from the getgo.

Jim Raynor wrote:An army made up of troops that were absolutely loyal to the Republic, from military contractors who were loyal to the Republic.

Completely unsupported. The Jedi council had not of heard of Kamino before and Kamino was outside of the Republic. What makes you think they are loyal to a government they aren't a part of?

Jim Raynor wrote:

You say someone else ordered the clones first. Who and what for? The only person who would have wanted or needed a clone army was Palpatine.

Another unsupported statement. You seem to live off of them.

No it's not if you watched the film. Palpatine needed Jar Jar to get the Senate to agree with using a clone army. He couldn't just do it himself which kind of implies that raising a clone army is not a usual thing. We the audience should be clearly aware that only Palpatine would need a clone army while the Jedi should at least be aware that there was little need for one 10 years ago before the Separatist crisis.

Jim Raynor wrote:

The Separtists were able to threaten the Republic with a self-made droid army. Any crackpot with money could buy a clone army and run amok

Another unsupported statement. The Kaminoans sell to clients they want to sell to. This is like saying anyone can buy stealth fighters from Lockheed and run amok.

Another unsupported statement whereas my was supported by the information given to Obiwan and us by the one person who had any prior knowledge of the Kaminoans. There was nothing about this "selling to clients they want to sell to." You just made that up.

And Lockheed is an American company contracted by the US government. Kamino is outside of the Republic.

Jim Raynor wrote:

If the Republic is so demiliatrized as some of you say it is then who was ordering clone armies in the past? And might they not still have them? Or is the Outer Rim just teeming with clone armies unbeknowst to the Republic?

Small time planetary militas. Private security firms. Who cares.

assumptions

Jim Raynor wrote:

You'd think based on the loyal to the Republic theory, the clones would all join the Rebel Alliance or just blow a gasket with the conundrum that the head of the Republic just turned it into the exact opposite of what it was.

This is getting tiresome. Everything argument you make is based on unsupported assumptions that don't even make sense. The clones were explicitly said to have been bred for obediance. They're not going to get a big independent streak and start thinking about how THEY would run the Republic instead. Especially not join the Rebel Alliance, which does not exist yet in ROTS, and has no direct contact to them. Palpatine is the Chancellor, and the highest legitimate leader in the Republic.

No my statements are from what was in the film both seen, stated, and what can be inferred by simple logic. You on the other hand are pulling stuff out of thin air while accusing me of doing the same. Hilarious!

ronindave wrote:

Darth Tedious wrote: After the formation of the Empire, the Kaminoans were... unimpressed with the direction the galaxy was headed in. So they made another army of Fett clones and staged the Kaminoan Rebellion. The army of 'Anti-troopers' were slaughtered, as they were made in a shorter timeframe and lacked the real-life battle experience held by the original Clones.

Those "Anti-trooper" clones sound more like tragic figures, heroes even to fight against the Empire unlike their earlier brethren who continued to serve Palpatine as the jackbooted thugs of the Empire.

Way to ignore my mentioning of the regret expressed by the clones in Battlefront II/

...so this guy comes back after weeks just to carry on? Didn't even see this. I seriously forgot all about him.

ronindave wrote:

Jim Raynor wrote: Another unsupported statement. You seem to live off of them.

Ah, Jim, but you are a laugh and a half. You complain about my supposedly unsupported statements then turn around and give the same. Too funny!

The "I know you are but what am I" comeback stopped sounding smart after kindergarten.

Some choice examples:

Jim Raynor wrote:The Kaminoans are good and honest. The Clones were honest too, and raised to be completely loyal to the Republic. This was vouched for by Obi-Wan, a Jedi who can read minds and detect emotions. Who Yoda obviously agreed with, after his own inspection later in the movie.

Unsupported except by assumptions.

WHAT? The Kaminoans openly accepted Obi-Wan, were hospitable with him, gave him an open tour of all their facilities, and kindly asked him to report everything to the Jedi and come on back. The fact that Jedi can sense thoughts and intentions is well established throughout the movies.

We were told by one who knew them that the Kaminoans were a group that could be dangerous if you didn't watch your manners or have a big enough pocketbook. Not exactly the stuff of goodness and honesty.

Did Dex, the diner owner, SAY they were bad guys? No. And it makes absolutely no sense to take some guy's vague nothing of a sentence over what the Jedi have seen with their own eyes. You are seriously reaching here, as you always do.

As for the Clones being honest, we have nothing to go on by that.

The Clones are bred and indoctrinated to be loyal and unquestioning. And Obi-Wan does have something to go on here - again, the Kaminoans were completely open and hospitable toward him, and he has his own Jedi abilities.

We saw nothing of Yodi's inspection of the clones nor did we hear of any knowledge that he gained so there was nothing obvious about it

It would've been pointless to show. It would've been the same exact thing as what Obi-Wan saw.

Like Havok you are confusing the point. All answers point to Palpatine in that we the audience can easily see that Palpatine put in the order for the clones to begin with therefore he would have had something to do with their making - this going back to the nature of the clones being either willingly evil or programmed like some kind of droid.

Complete false dilemma. This was dealt with quite thoroughly by more than one person. You show absolutely no respect toward anyone in this thread, when you just come back to repeat the same exact things that you said before, as if they weren't addressed already. It's clear you're not here to actually discuss, but to insist.

The clones either HAD to be "willingly evil" or "programmed" to do bad things like a droid? No, they didn't have to be. They were simple obedient and unquestioning, and obeyed a legit order from their Commander In-Chief during ROTS.

For the Jedi all answers with the clones pointed to Count Dooku who was working against the Republic. A dead Jedi orders a clone army,

As far as the movies go, someone claiming to be a Jedi ordered the clone army, stating that he was acting on behalf of the Republic Senate. The same Senate which had many Senators pushing for militarization, as stated earlier in the movie. The Jedi even state, at the end of the movie, that they will watch the Senate more closely.

the model for the clone works for Dooku,

Jango is a merc who retained the freedom to continue his duties even after the clones were started. So Dooku paid him and got him to turn. Doesn't automatically lead to the entire clone army being evil.

the planet was erased from the Jedi archives which only a Jedi could have done. Dooku was a former Jedi and presumably would have had access to those records. They should have been suspicious of a trap from the getgo.

Only a Jedi could have done? Where do you draw this conclusion from? Oh that's right, it's either unsupported or very vaguely, barely supported once again. The Jedi's arrogance about the security of their own files doesn't mean that they're completely immune to external sabotage.

Jim Raynor wrote:An army made up of troops that were absolutely loyal to the Republic, from military contractors who were loyal to the Republic.

Completely unsupported. The Jedi council had not of heard of Kamino before and Kamino was outside of the Republic. What makes you think they are loyal to a government they aren't a part of?

Again, they were completely friendly and open toward Obi-Wan, telling him to report their activities and come back. And again, Obi-Wan and Yoda are Jedi and can pick up on evil intentions.

Jim Raynor wrote:

You say someone else ordered the clones first. Who and what for? The only person who would have wanted or needed a clone army was Palpatine.

Another unsupported statement. You seem to live off of them.

No it's not if you watched the film. Palpatine needed Jar Jar to get the Senate to agree with using a clone army. He couldn't just do it himself which kind of implies that raising a clone army is not a usual thing.

Wow, you are utterly incapable of understanding the movie. The Chancellor asking for the legal, formal creation of a federal army is NOT the same as someone else (implied to be any of a number of militarists in the Senate) secretly ordering military assets for the Republic.

We the audience should be clearly aware that only Palpatine would need a clone army

And not all the Senators who Padme was trying to talk down from militarizing the Republic.

while the Jedi should at least be aware that there was little need for one 10 years ago before the Separatist crisis.

The Naboo incident showed how out of control groups like the Trade Federation could be. And I like how you say "10 years ago before the Separatist crisis" as if the Separatist crisis just popped up overnight. More likely, separatist sentiments have been building up for years. Which wouldn't be unusual at all, given how horribly governed the Republic seemed to be during TPM.

Another unsupported statement. The Kaminoans sell to clients they want to sell to. This is like saying anyone can buy stealth fighters from Lockheed and run amok.

Another unsupported statement whereas my was supported by the information given to Obiwan and us by the one person who had any prior knowledge of the Kaminoans. There was nothing about this "selling to clients they want to sell to." You just made that up.

WHAT? Are you actually saying that it's an "unsupported" assumption that the Kaminoans would sell military assets to people they did not WANT to sell to?
Also, let me just get this straight. Are you still insisting on your silly idea that the Republic should've completely jumped the gun and WIPED OUT the Kaminoans...just for being in the military business?

And Lockheed is an American company contracted by the US government. Kamino is outside of the Republic.

Ooh, you sure got me there. OK, should the US take out ANY OTHER company that sells military gear in foreign countries?

Small time planetary militas. Private security firms. Who cares.

assumptions

Doesn't have to be anything more than that, when all I have to do is come up with a sensible explanation for your nitpicky questions.

ronindave wrote:A planet able to produce whole clone armies? Don't you think every tinpot dictator in the galaxy would be trying to order these? There'd be clone armies all over the place. I think being able to mass produce clone armies along with weaponry and ships would make Kamino quite unique in the SW universe.

Again, you go off the completely unsupported, and quite frankly silly, idea that the Kaminoans irresponsibly sell weapons to ANYONE, "all over the place." And you use to this to jump to the astounding conclusion that the Republic should just "nuke" Kamino. Planetary massacre just because, great idea.

I wonder why the Rebels didn't cobble together some cash and buy a few thousand wookie clone soldiers?

Hmm...maybe the Empire controls Kamino by that time? Maybe they don't have the cash? Maybe large, stationary facilities on a known world with a history of dealing with the central government, that literally take YEARS to produce anything aren't good for a REBEL army? Completely pointless and silly question.

An Empire headed by one supreme leader as opposed to a Republic formed by elected delegates should make most people raise an eyebrow especially after hearing the Jedi the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand years were all cut down including the children without even a trial or investigation. What a way to start a new Empire! Nothing tyrannical or strange about that. No, sir!

Palpatine has the scars to prove it and get pity points. Also, he controls the message, and the people love him because of his strong leadership during a time of war.

Bred to obey - there we go back to the original point of this thread. The clone troopers are not heroes not even tragic ones. They have no thought of their own and they have been shown to willingly follow any order no matter how grisly.

I love how you continually insist that they have to be biological robots rather than consummate professionals. Maybe, maybe they obey Palpatine because they don't know any better, and believe him to be right? Maybe they trust in his orders and do what they're told, regardless of how they feel about their orders?

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, and don't care to process what people point out for you.

ronindave wrote:and did anyone ever see Sifo-Dyas? We know from the cloners a jedi named Sifo Dyas put in the order. We know from Jango he was hired by a man named Tyrannus who we learn to be Dooku.

The key word here dumbfuck is WE. The audience knows these things. We also know the exactly how the Sith will be defeated in 30 years. The characters in the movies do not.

Hmmm... could it be that maybe Dooku impersonated a dead Jedi to the cloners? You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that Palpatine thru Dooku was behind the creation of the clone army and I mean this from the audience's perspective because it involves the very nature of the clones - beings created by an evil man to fulfill his evil plans. Now even though the Jedi don't know all this or have reason to suspect Palpatine at the time, the fact is the whole clone thing should have sent off enormous warning bells.

No shit the audience knows this.
Really? Are you really this stupid? As I pointed out earlier though, and of course you ignored it, erase your memories of the original movies, and there is no clear cut anything because you don't even know that Palpatine is Sidious. It's like talking to the kid in the dunce cap in the special ed class.

An order put through by a Jedi thought to be dead before this on a planet wiped from their archives that only a Jedi could do with a template model of a bounty hunter found working for the Separatists led by Count Dooku, a former a Jedi - uh, guys? Don't use the fucking clones. At the very least they should have suspected a Separatist trap. In a roundabout way it was since Palpatine was running the Separatists anyway.

When do THE CHARACTERS discover that Dooku is Tyranus? Please show me that scene. If the connection is made at all, it is made by Yoda AFTER they have already taken control of the clones. There is however NO scene where Dooku is ever referred to as Tyranus by anyone other than Sidious.

As for the order itself, there is a very good reason to erase the system out of the archive for Sifo-Dyas, and that is secrecy from the threat he had the army created to fight. This is a Jedi that saw the future, so he very well may have known about Dooku, Anakin and even Palpatine and could not trust the Jedi Order itself. Given the actual facts of the movie, and what the characters actually know, that makes far more sense, assuming Sifo-Dyas kept it secret for his own reasons, than blindly assuming that the Chancellor had the army made because he is secretly a Sith Lord.

Havok wrote:Really? Do the math dumbfuck. What was Palpatine's position in the Galactic Government over ten years before AOTC? Remember yet? Senator. A single senator has absolutely zero need for an army. Sifo-Dyas ordered the army for the Republic because he foresaw the future, you know, that pesky thing Jedi do, and placed the order with the thought and mindset that A. the Republic would need it B. that the Republic was not secretly going to be run by a Sith Lord, who also was running the Seperatists and C. he would be fucking alive.

Dumbfuck? Please, keep the personal insults down and try to focus if you can on your argument even as weak as it is. The problem here is you're making vast assumptions on the motives of Sifo-Dyas a character only mentioned in the film. The clones were said to have been ordered 10 years ago about the time Palpatine became Chancellor. Whether he was chancellor or senator at the time of the order is immaterial. Palpatine had a plan to sieze complete power from early on that went beyond just being Chancellor. The Separatists and the clones were quite apparently a part of that plan.

What's the matter? Gonna cry if I keep insulting you? Is mommy gonna have to come down into the basement and make you feel better?
you are the one making vast assumptions based on information NONE OF THE CHARACTERS IN THE MOVIES HAVE. How are the Separatists so very apparently part of Palpatine's plans to seize control of the Republic, when he is ALREADY THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLIC?? How are the Clones part of a plan to seize control of the Republic that they already are sworn to obey and by extension of Palpatine, already control? You are so pathetically grasping at ledges at this point.

Havok wrote:Right. I forgot that Yoda was an astrologer and planet cataloger. Why the fuck would Yoda know about one planet? There are hundreds of thousands of planets in the SW galaxy, please tell us why Yoda should know about one?

A planet able to produce whole clone armies? Don't you think every tinpot dictator in the galaxy would be trying to order these? There'd be clone armies all over the place. I think being able to mass produce clone armies along with weaponry and ships would make Kamino quite unique in the SW universe. I wonder why the Rebels didn't cobble together some cash and buy a few thousand wookie clone soldiers?

First of all, this ain't the bullshit EU. There are no tinpot dictators around every corner. Your deductive reasoning should tell you that, by three facts: A: No one but a fucking cook knows who the fuck they are, so even if they have created clone forces before, they were never a threat to anyone, let alone the galaxy. B: There are NOT clone armies all over the place. C: Up until the clone wars, the Republic did not have an army they could muster to fight with. How then did Kamino not simply conquer the galaxy with all those clone armies they were creating? It should have been easy with no fucking massive Republic army to oppose them right?

Does it hurt being that stupid?

Havok wrote:

A planet that makes clone armies for anyone who will pay? That sounds like trouble. You'd think Kamino would be nuked for the good of the Republic or out of revenge from any planet who suffered attacks from the clones made there. The Separtists were able to threaten the Republic with a self-made droid army. Any crackpot with money could buy a clone army and run amok - oh, wait that happened and he set up the Empire.

What the fuck... do you even know what you are rambling about? Any fucking planet with a decent population can raise a fucking army retard. Should the Republic nuke any planet with more than a billion people? Are you really this fucking stupid?

Apparently you take things to literally but that is hardly a crime here

Nice try at a back track there sport. You are the one making the argument that Kamino is a massive army making machine and the Jedi are stupid for not knowing about them.

The fact is a planet that is willingly to sell off whole armies to whoever will pay them would make for a dangerous element. Planets that had suffered from their clone armies might possibly want revenge or simply to stop their enemies from producing more. I wonder if there isn't some EU story out there or in the works were the rebels destroy the cloning facilities to stop the mass production of Storm Troopers.

And yet, no one in the entire galaxy was worried about, hell, even knew about Kamino. What does that tell you? Oh that's right. They weren't pumping out galaxy threatening armies. Fucking retard.

Havok wrote:In one sentence you talk about clones, then droids while not realizing that the capabilities of creating armies of them has been around for THOUSANDS of years in the SW galaxy. The fact that you can make them has zero bearing on what happened dumbshit.

dumbshit? you get mad so easily, don't you? We're just talking about Star Wars. Pop a chill pill.

Hey look, another dodge of a point. And please, don't confuse being mad with energetic mocking. You're just too easy of a target.

Havok wrote:

The cloners say the Fett clones are the finest they ever made. That implies they've made others --- which begs the question for who and for what reason? If the Republic is so demiliatrized as some of you say it is then who was ordering clone armies in the past? And might they not still have them? Or is the Outer Rim just teeming with clone armies unbeknowst to the Republic?

Obviously, the Kaminoians didn't threaten the Republic at any point with their clones. Your 'elementary deduction' should tell you that OR Kamino actually would be a well known planet.

And just because they can make an army, doesn't mean that they already have.

You apparently haven't watched the film or something. The cloner prime minister clearly says to Obi-wan that Jango's clone army is one of the finest they have ever created. Present Perfect Tense which means up to that point they had created clone armies before and when you throw in the word "ever" that implies they have been doing it for some time. Check 5:30 for his exact words:

And yet, NO ONE KNOWS WHO THE FUCK THEY ARE. So what does that tell you?

If the Kaminoans have been producing clone armies for XYZ time, and yet they are less widely known about than fucking Tattooine... what does that tell you about all the clone armies they have made?

Can you figure it out on your own this time champ or do you need more help? It's OK... we know you are slow, we will wait.

Havok wrote:

Anyway, from the film it seems quite clear Palpatine is behind the clones and has been since the beginning hence the secrecy and the removal of Kamino from the records.

Holy fuck, you are this dumb.
OK, lets try this... pretend that you have never seen A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and most importantly, Return of the Jedi. Pretend that you never read the credits in those movies and The Phantom Menace.

Now, under this pretense, give me one good reason why you, the rest of the audience, and most importantly, the fucking characters in the movies, would have any reason to suspect Palpatine is behind the creation of the clones. Or the removal of Kamino from the Jedi archives? Please, show us all, with your 'elementary deduction' the damning evidence that gives away that Palpatine is behind the clone armys creation. Let fucking alone that he is Sidious. Please show us the scenes in the movie that gives us this information.

I see what you are doing here - completely missing the point. When I say clearly Palpatine is behind the creation of the clones this goes back to the original point of this thread - that the clone troopers are the tools of Palpatine. He had them created specifically to fulfill his designs. They aren't tragic heroes. They either willing aided him or they were little more than droids following programmed commands. And there is very little reason to suspect that someone else ordered the clones first, in fact none at all. The clones were from the very beginning part of Palpatine's plans therefore it is not unreasonable to assume that he would have made great efforts to make sure the clones would only follow him.

OK, so I ask you for actual evidence to back up your claims, and again you dodge the question. Par for the course.

Please provide PROOF of your claims that the Clones are CLEARLY tools of Palpatine and that the characters in the movies should know this.
Provide proof that the clones were part of Palpatine's plans from the beginning.
And just to be thorough...

Havok wrote:Now, under this pretense, give me one good reason why you, the rest of the audience, and most importantly, the fucking characters in the movies, would have any reason to suspect Palpatine is behind the creation of the clones. Or the removal of Kamino from the Jedi archives? Please, show us all, with your 'elementary deduction' the damning evidence that gives away that Palpatine is behind the clone armys creation. Let fucking alone that he is Sidious. Please show us the scenes in the movie that gives us this information.

PLEASE PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE ASKED FOR IN THIS DEBATE OR CONCEDE THE POINT.

Also, and I know this may hurt that tiny little brain of yours, but you can not just ignore the novels other EU materials made in conjunction with the movies as they had DIRECT story input from George Lucas. They are the highest canon outside of the movies themselves.

Havok wrote:

When he gives Order 66, he expects dead Jedi and not tragic figures agonizing over gunning down their former friends and leaders.

Except this actually happens in a book that was written and sanctioned by GL that takes place immediately after ROTS and was written along side the production of ROTS so there is no 'EU band aide' label here. The clones in the story found the order preposterous because they had seen zero indication of betrayal from the Jedi and thought the order to be a hoax by the Seperatists to get them to kill their friends, leaders and most effective warriors.

Sorry but that is EU band aid even more so if GL approved it. It's called backtracking. When AOTC and ROTS were made, the clones were simply the bad guys that Palpatine used to wipe out the Jedi and seize control. When the idea of making a Clone Wars movie and TV series came along a few years later, they had to backtrack what had already been established basically fix it so it would fit the new story line. That's the problem with the whole Prequel franchise. The scripts were rushed leading to all kinds of inconsistencies which GL is still rewriting and changing despite it going against what he already put down.

Hey dumbshit. The sources I pointed out, were not conceived of AFTER ROTS came out. In fact Clone Wars was created and COMPLETED and shown on TV BEFORE ROTS hit the theaters. The books were being written at the SAME TIME the movies were being made. I mean fucking christ... you ARE this stupid.

*sigh*
AOTC: 2002
SW: Clone Wars: 2003-2005
SW: Labyrinth of Evil: 1/25/05
SW: Revenge of the Sith: (Novel) 4/2/05
Revenge of the Sith: 5/19/05
SW: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader: 11/22/05

See sparky? Clone Wars is PART of the Star Wars story, not a backtrack or band-aide. Same with Labyrinth of Evil, the ROTS novel and even DL:TRODV, which was begun before ROTS was released had input and approval from Lucas on the story and it's elements.

What you retardedly call "a band-aide" is someone that knows he has 5 different ways of getting his stories out, and not only wants to use them all, but is expected to do so, and knows that you can't cram every little piece of character you want into a 2 hour movie, or even two of them. Especially, when character is an established secondary element to the story you have crafted.

Havok wrote:

Their obedience is to him and him alone and it shows when he removes the democratic Republic that you guys say the clones are so loyal to and replaces it with the tyrannical Empire.

Fucking christ on a fucking stick. CHARACTER PERSPECTIVE. Please provide the scenes and evidence that allow everyone in the galaxy to know that the First Galactic Empire, which is like, a day fucking old, is tyrannical? Please provide this evidence or concede your dumbassed fucking argument.

An Empire headed by one supreme leader as opposed to a Republic formed by elected delegates should make most people raise an eyebrow especially after hearing the Jedi the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand years were all cut down including the children without even a trial or investigation. What a way to start a new Empire! Nothing tyrannical or strange about that. No, sir!

Do you know what the word EVIDENCE means? PROOF? FACTS?
Palpatine does. He presented himself as marred and disfigured as evidence of the Jedi attempted coup, which, surprise, was exactly what it was. The Jedi in the movies are even aware of this. There is a scene where they plot what must be done to ensure that they can control the situation.

You did happen to see the parts where the elected government kept giving more power over to the Supreme Chancellor? Happen to notice the THOUSANDS, and practically all, of Senators cheering when the Empire was created? Cheered the destruction of the Jedi?

In real life people who have lived in nominally democratic republics of some sort have always been wary of tyrants and the possibility of one arising. Julius Caesar was cut down in fear he would become a king/emperor and do away with the Roman Republic. But I guess everyone in the SW Republic were just too dumb to think about it that much.

And yet a Roman Empire still existed.

Again... EVIDENCE. Where is the evidence that the general public, or even the majority of the government, has that points to Palpatine but anything other than a leader that has been beloved, just survived a kidnapping and crash landing, an attempted coup by his most trusted generals, who horribly disfigured him and who just won the war for the Republic?

"hur hur, but EMPIRE sound EVIL!!"

Havok wrote:

Why? The Rebel Alliance A. doesn't exist yet and B. is a group with the singular goal of overthrowing the LEGAL government of the galaxy, you know the thing the clones are bred to obey.

Bred to obey - there we go back to the original point of this thread. The clone troopers are not heroes not even tragic ones. They have no thought of their own and they have been shown to willingly follow any order no matter how grisly. They gunned down their old friends in the back and they helped Anakin slaughter children. I know some here tried to use the Nuremburg excuse of they were just following orders but most of those who used that defense got hung. In the American military that excuse doesn't float, just ask Lynndie England and her Abu Ghraib mates.[/quote]
What is "grisly" about killing the enemies of your government? That is what the clones had been doing since they hit the scene. What is bad about following the orders of your lawfully elected leader? They were in an actual WAR still. They weren't grabbing "supposedly guilty" people off the streets and sending them to a secret prison.
The Jedi attempted a coup and failed. They declared themselves enemies of the Republic by attacking the Supreme Chancellor and most importantly, not going through the Senate and attempting to kill him without a trial.

As for slaughtering children. The younglings, Anakin killed on his own. As for the teenagers, as we saw, they were just a dangerous to a clone trooper as a regular Jedi and we dealt with in the same way.

Making a story about a heroic clone trooper like Marrt and the message of the actions of one soldier given the background here is just warped. In just about any other story setting it would work but not here. Either Marrt is just playing along until Order 66 comes along or he's just like a droid that will be your friend one minute and kill you the next.

Right, just like a secret service agent will be your friend one minute and kill you the next when you try to kill the President. What horrible writing they have.
The clones don't have to play along. Order 66 is one order among many. That they have to execute it when ordered to do so is practically beside the point. It is not some evil plot that they are part of, it is simply an order that plans for the unlikely event that the Jedi turn against the Republic and the Chancellor.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Continge ... hrough_150

Overall what amazes me here is the lengths some of you will go to in order to defend what basically amounts to sloppy inconsistent writing. Truly amazing!

What is sloppy or inconsistent about it? Oh I'll grant you the dialogue sucks, but there is nothing wrong with the plot and story. You are just too stupid to see what was crafted as far a Palpatine working to rid the galaxy of the Jedi. That is the point you seem to miss. It isn't about controlling the galaxy. He already did that.

You don't like that Lucas is giving stories to the clone troopers before the Jedi attempted a coup against their lawfully elected leader? Fine. But all your points are bull shit and opinion, something that has been shown repeatedly without you once providing evidence for them when asked.

Havok wrote:There is however NO scene where Dooku is ever referred to as Tyranus by anyone other than Sidious.

Jango Fett tells Obi-Wan that he was hired by "Tyranus," but is seen hanging out with Dooku on Geonosis. We can probably assume, then, that he, at least, by that point knew that Dooku was Tyranus. That doesn't establish that anyone else knew it, but I guess that means that the information was "out there" to some extent, anyway. Though, as you say, no Jedi saw Jango with Dooku until after the Republic had accepted the clones.

For that matter, does the galaxy as a whole ever learn that Palpatine engineered the Clone Wars? Even when he declared himself Emperor he didn't say "Oh, by the way, I'm a Sith," and that doesn't seem to have been common knowledge, as was the fact that Vader was a force user. He died still in power at the end of RotJ, and Vader didn't exactly have time to tell Luke whatever he knew of what had gone on.

How are the Separatists so very apparently part of Palpatine's plans to seize control of the Republic, when he is ALREADY THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLIC??

He's not even just failing to distinguish what the characters know from what the viewers know. He's assuming that the viewer has more information than is presented in the movies. The Emperor's name is never spoken in the OT, but was established and made known by the EU, so even a first-time viewer who has seen the OT but hasn't read EU stuff doesn't know that Palpatine is the future Emperor. It is not explicitly revealed that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person until the last act of RotS, so even though we see Sidious manipulating the Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists in RotS, a first-time viewer can only suspect or "realize" that it's Palpatine doing the manipulating. It isn't revealed that Dooku is the new Sith Apprentice until the last act of AotC, and that's also the first time he's addressed as "Tyranus," which is intended to be the "aha moment" for the first-time viewer to realize that he is connected to the clone army. Not only do the characters know none of this, the first time viewer doesn't either.

So, yeah, the second time you watch, or if you already know that Palpatine is the Emperor and thus Darth Sidious, then it's apparent to the viewer that the Separatists are part of Palpatine's plans to consolidate his control of the Republic and wipe out the Jedi because the Separatists are led by his apprentice and are "in bed" with the Trade Federation, whom the viewer has already seen being manipulated by Sidious.

How are the Clones part of a plan to seize control of the Republic that they already are sworn to obey and by extension of Palpatine, already control?

I think it's fair to say that until he gets an army that will unquestioningly kill all the Jedi on his behalf, he doesn't truly control to Republic. If all the Jedi were free to just keep coming at him one after another, he'd presumably, at some point, get killed. So getting the Clones was probably a big part of his plan.

You are the one making the argument that Kamino is a massive army making machine and the Jedi are stupid for not knowing about them.

To be fair, unless we buy into the Karen Traviss "3 million clones" nonsense, Kamino is a massive army-making machine. But the fact that all data about Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives means that the Jedi did, at some point, know about it.

lstyer wrote:

Havok wrote:There is however NO scene where Dooku is ever referred to as Tyranus by anyone other than Sidious.

Jango Fett tells Obi-Wan that he was hired by "Tyranus," but is seen hanging out with Dooku on Geonosis. We can probably assume, then, that he, at least, by that point knew that Dooku was Tyranus.

Jango Fett working for Dooku 10 years after being hired by "Tyranus" doesn't prove that Dooku and Tyranus are one and the same though. The Kaminoans allowed Jango to do as he pleased over the years. Easy alternative explanations exist. Dooku may have hired Jango afterwards, or Jango may have decided to play both sides for more money and sell out the clone operation to the Separatists.

You are the one making the argument that Kamino is a massive army making machine and the Jedi are stupid for not knowing about them.

To be fair, unless we buy into the Karen Traviss "3 million clones" nonsense, Kamino is a massive army-making machine. But the fact that all data about Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives means that the Jedi did, at some point, know about it.

Kamino was in the Jedi Archives before it was erased, but the fact that nobody knows about it without the data entry to prove it means that the Kaminoans must have remained under the radar. Perhaps the Grand Army of the Republic is by far the largest project that they ever took on. Previous clone forces must have been small, and sold only to select customers who wouldn't use them to cause trouble.

EDIT: quotes

lstyer wrote:

Havok wrote:There is however NO scene where Dooku is ever referred to as Tyranus by anyone other than Sidious.

Jango Fett tells Obi-Wan that he was hired by "Tyranus," but is seen hanging out with Dooku on Geonosis. We can probably assume, then, that he, at least, by that point knew that Dooku was Tyranus. That doesn't establish that anyone else knew it, but I guess that means that the information was "out there" to some extent, anyway. Though, as you say, no Jedi saw Jango with Dooku until after the Republic had accepted the clones.

This is sensible reasoning and is the case. In fact watching the movie... the confusion is... why is Jango, the template of the Clones, now with Dooku, the leader of the Separatists? He may know that Dooku was Tyranus, or he may have simply refereed him to Gunray for the job of killing Padme. I don't think the Separatists themselves actually knew that Tyranus and Dooku were the same person. They obviously didn't know that Sidious was Palpatine.

For that matter, does the galaxy as a whole ever learn that Palpatine engineered the Clone Wars? Even when he declared himself Emperor he didn't say "Oh, by the way, I'm a Sith," and that doesn't seem to have been common knowledge, as was the fact that Vader was a force user. He died still in power at the end of RotJ, and Vader didn't exactly have time to tell Luke whatever he knew of what had gone on.

No, the galaxy never does learn that. In fact, the Sidious name is completely dropped after he becomes Emperor and destroys the Jedi. The Rebel Alliance knows through Mothma and Bail Antillies that Sidious and Palpatine are the same. Luke is obviously aware. And somewhere along the line in the EU, the galaxy as a whole does eventually know that Vader was Anakin Skywalker, but again, I don't think anyone knew the connection with Sidious and Palpatine.

How are the Separatists so very apparently part of Palpatine's plans to seize control of the Republic, when he is ALREADY THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLIC??

He's not even just failing to distinguish what the characters know from what the viewers know. He's assuming that the viewer has more information than is presented in the movies. The Emperor's name is never spoken in the OT, but was established and made known by the EU, so even a first-time viewer who has seen the OT but hasn't read EU stuff doesn't know that Palpatine is the future Emperor. It is not explicitly revealed that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person until the last act of RotS, so even though we see Sidious manipulating the Trade Federation in TPM and the Separatists in RotS, a first-time viewer can only suspect or "realize" that it's Palpatine doing the manipulating. It isn't revealed that Dooku is the new Sith Apprentice until the last act of AotC, and that's also the first time he's addressed as "Tyranus," which is intended to be the "aha moment" for the first-time viewer to realize that he is connected to the clone army. Not only do the characters know none of this, the first time viewer doesn't either.

This reminds me of something back when The Phantom Menace was about to come out and there was still some debate as to if Sidious, Palpatine and the Emperor were all the same guy. (even though they are all played by the same actor) There were some that were convinced that Lucas was going to throw everyone a curve ball and have the Emperor be Sidious, but not Palpatine. In hind sight, it might not have been a bad idea and may have provided that "I am your father." moment for the prequels.

So, yeah, the second time you watch, or if you already know that Palpatine is the Emperor and thus Darth Sidious, then it's apparent to the viewer that the Separatists are part of Palpatine's plans to consolidate his control of the Republic and wipe out the Jedi because the Separatists are led by his apprentice and are "in bed" with the Trade Federation, whom the viewer has already seen being manipulated by Sidious.

Exactly. It is the difference between character and viewer perspective.

How are the Clones part of a plan to seize control of the Republic that they already are sworn to obey and by extension of Palpatine, already control?

I think it's fair to say that until he gets an army that will unquestioningly kill all the Jedi on his behalf, he doesn't truly control to Republic. If all the Jedi were free to just keep coming at him one after another, he'd presumably, at some point, get killed. So getting the Clones was probably a big part of his plan.

It certainly ended up as a big part of his plan, but no one knows exactly how that came to be, or I should say, how Sidious found out about it. From the EU, we know that Sifo-Dyas did actually order the Army, in secret, on the behalf of the Republic while Valorum was still in power and IIRC before the events of TPM. So Sidious and Maul had just begun to reveal themselves. This also means that Dooku was already in league with Palpatine even while Maul was the other Sith Lord.

Certainly though, once Palpatine realized what he had, he manipulated it to his own end, IIRC having the Kaminoans add the obedience to the Chancellor, not the Senate or Jedi, to the clone make up. It would be interesting to see how Sidious would have dealt with the Jedi without Order 66.

You are the one making the argument that Kamino is a massive army making machine and the Jedi are stupid for not knowing about them.

To be fair, unless we buy into the Karen Traviss "3 million clones" nonsense, Kamino is a massive army-making machine. But the fact that all data about Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives means that the Jedi did, at some point, know about it.

Dooku erased it. The Jedi had the system in their archives, but it wasn't anything that stood out. It certainly isn't the galactic menace that dumbfuck up there is trying to make it into, otherwise A: The Jedi would have known about it and B: There would have been no reason to erase it from the archives if it was a menace to anyone, as the Jedi would know it by name, and wouldn't have to go to the archive to find it in the first place.

Jim Raynor wrote:Jango Fett working for Dooku 10 years after being hired by "Tyranus" doesn't prove that Dooku and Tyranus are one and the same though.

No, but Darth Sidious calling Dooku "Darth Tyranus" at the end of AotC is a strong indicator that Dooku and Tyranus are one and the same.

The Kaminoans allowed Jango to do as he pleased over the years. Easy alternative explanations exist. Dooku may have hired Jango afterwards, or Jango may have decided to play both sides for more money and sell out the clone operation to the Separatists.

I think Jango made it pretty clear that he was recruited by Tyranus to be the clone template. That's how I understood his exchange with Obi-Wan on Kamino when Obi-Wan asked him about Sifo-Dyas.

Kamino was in the Jedi Archives before it was erased, but the fact that nobody knows about it without the data entry to prove it means that the Kaminoans must have remained under the radar.

Sure. The fact that Kamino was, previously, in the Jedi Archive indicates that the Jedi weren't stupid for not knowing about Kamino, but were the victims of sabotage.

lstyer wrote:

The Kaminoans allowed Jango to do as he pleased over the years. Easy alternative explanations exist. Dooku may have hired Jango afterwards, or Jango may have decided to play both sides for more money and sell out the clone operation to the Separatists.

I think Jango made it pretty clear that he was recruited by Tyranus to be the clone template. That's how I understood his exchange with Obi-Wan on Kamino when Obi-Wan asked him about Sifo-Dyas.

Yeah, but the stupid fucking EU says Sifo-Dyas made the order; so we're stuck with that factoid; even though having Dooku impersonate Sifo after killing him would have made it simpler. So Sifo-Dyas ordered it, Dooku killed him, and then found the 'templet' in Jango for the Clone Army, presumably along with some tweaks to the training.

As i recall weren't Dooku and Sifo-Dyas friends? It's not mutually exclusive for Dooku to be "Tyranus" at the time Sifo-Dyas commissions the clone army. Say he approaches Dooku (not knowing he's now Sith) and asks him for help in recruiting a good clone source. Dooku uses his sith connections and power to recruit Fett (which is how he knows him as Tyranus) Dooku co-opts the plan from the Jedi by killing Sifo-Dyas and assuming control, but still allows it to progress as if it was a Jedi initiative.

Palpatine learned of the clone army and then had Dooku co-opt it IIRC.

I hate to point this out, but this is where the sector forces, militias, locally owned armies part come in.

Kamino might have been able to manufacture large clone armies in the past, but without a corresponding large infrastructure of starships, fuel, weapons and etc, such armies would not have been effective against Core worlds.

One must remember that the droid armies of the Trade Federation must had numbered more than one million, considering that if the Viceroy ran away, he could just gather another droid army to attack the Naboo. Yet, Qui Gon simply dismissed the entire starship blockade and their corresponding armies.

The Republic might not have large, standing professional armies at their call, but they must have been able to summon powerful forces, probably naval and expeditionary based, supported by the Jedi and paramilitary Judicals.

Again, you go off the completely unsupported, and quite frankly silly, idea that the Kaminoans irresponsibly sell weapons to ANYONE, "all over the place." And you use to this to jump to the astounding conclusion that the Republic should just "nuke" Kamino. Planetary massacre just because, great idea.

Was your mother a Kaminoan? What's with this unfounded belief in Kaminoan honesty? The only thing we ever really heard about them was that they kept to themselves and were interested in manners and pocketbooks. Nothing Obiwan said seem to contradict this. It was just find clone army fight Jango and off to track Jango. He didn't really stick around long enough but I guess those unspoken mind powers were in full force reading their minds like an open book

And nuking the planet my dear, dear take things too literally Raynor, was a throw away comment. You can let go of that bone already, fido. I think the Kamino cloning planet idea was a poorly conceived story idea that begs too many questions which undermine the story structure as a whole. If such a planet existed it would be a desirable planet for many who were interested in conquest, defense, border disputes, and guarding gangsters and the like. It would be rather hard to imagine a planet which could produce entire armies from troops to weapons to transport ships and apparently battle ships could go so easily unnoticed or unknown by so many particularly the supposedly wise Jedi and especially 900 year old Yoda. In our own reality the makers of superior arms were always highly sought after likewise those who hired themselves out for hire such as the Swiss.

The Jedi had the system in their archives, but it wasn't anything that stood out. It certainly isn't the galactic menace that dumbfuck up there is trying to make it into

Ah, yes but this dumbfuck has enough common sense to know that if such an entity existed it certainly would have stood out for the above stated reasons. The reason it does not? Bad writing, pure and simple. You can reach for all the EU band aids you want but it want be enough to cover this gaping chest wound of a badly-conceived idea.

What might have been better? The Kaminoans are hired by Darth Sidious to attack the Republic with clone armies. This forces the Republic to give Palpatine more power so he can draft a massive army which he can brainwash during their training. There you would have a real human base for the Empire and not just a bunch of clones, the Emperor, and some suck-up officers. Later after several years of hard fighting with a break (thus why it's called the Clone Wars with an s), he could fabricate evidence that the Kaminoans are in league with the Jedi then order them hunted down.

Ha ha look at the speed of that backtracking. "It was a throw away line!"

And of course dumbfuck ignores his own above stated reasons as a logical reasons why Kamino obviously did none of the things he assumes they did.

It's painfully obvious that "OMG GEORGE LUCAS DIDN'T MAKE THE MOVIES I WANT! I HATE HIM AND HIS STUPID MOVIES!!" angst is the driving force behind all this inane whining.

Dex was some sort of prospector or roughneck of some sort. A drifter, blue collared worker, self made man of one type or another. His view of a very powerful planet on the rim and how to interact with it by himself would be drastically different than a Jedi backed up by the Force, the Order, and the Republic proper are two totally different things. Dex would have to watch his manners, if he insulted them, or broke something he doesn't have the means to pay off/bribe them nor does he have a vast infrastructure behind him. He's a loner type. If a Jedi insulted/broke them, he or she is backed up by the money of the Order/Republic and power/influence. What's the line? Some of the truths he hold on to depend on our point of view?

Havok wrote:It's painfully obvious that "OMG GEORGE LUCAS DIDN'T MAKE THE MOVIES I WANT! I HATE HIM AND HIS STUPID MOVIES!!"

Yeah, he didn't mak the movies I wanted. I wanted good movies.

ronindave wrote:

Again, you go off the completely unsupported, and quite frankly silly, idea that the Kaminoans irresponsibly sell weapons to ANYONE, "all over the place." And you use to this to jump to the astounding conclusion that the Republic should just "nuke" Kamino. Planetary massacre just because, great idea.

Was your mother a Kaminoan? What's with this unfounded belief in Kaminoan honesty?

Oh please, you said a ridiculous thing ("nuke" Kamino....for *gasp* producing military products) which at best shows that you're grasping for straws and at worst shows that you're completely nonsensical if not insane. Again, Obi-Wan was treated hospitably, given an open tour of the facility, didn't have his Jedi danger senses going off, and was even asked to go back to the Jedi and report everything he saw. If the Kaminoans and clones were evil and in a conspiracy against the Republic...then that was the worst conspiracy ever. They weren't the bad guys, Palpatine (who the Jedi worked with and trusted) was.

And nuking the planet my dear, dear take things too literally Raynor, was a throw away comment. You can let go of that bone already, fido.

As the others have said, nice backtracking. Don't talk trash now as if you're the who has the upper hand on this silly point.

If such a planet existed it would be a desirable planet for many who were interested in conquest, defense, border disputes, and guarding gangsters and the like.

As if the Kaminoans can't pick and choose who they sold to.

It would be rather hard to imagine a planet which could produce entire armies from troops to weapons to transport ships and apparently battle ships could go so easily unnoticed or unknown by so many particularly the supposedly wise Jedi and especially 900 year old Yoda.

The same Jedi who explicitly said that their powers were being clouded by the Dark Side? Who have actual things to do inside the Republic, and not some Outer Rim world outside of it?

Ah, yes but this dumbfuck has enough common sense to know that if such an entity existed it certainly would have stood out for the above stated reasons.

Not if it was archived a long time ago when it wasn't building the clone army, which was only 10 years old in AOTC. Wow, some Outer Rim world produces clone workers and the occasional defensive force? Big whoop.

What might have been better? The Kaminoans are hired by Darth Sidious to attack the Republic with clone armies. This forces the Republic to give Palpatine more power so he can draft a massive army which he can brainwash during their training. There you would have a real human base for the Empire and not just a bunch of clones, the Emperor, and some suck-up officers.

Wait...I thought you were complaining before about how everyone just supported Palpatine's rise as a dictator? Your alternate scenario solves none of the supposed problems that you raised about the Kaminoans making themselves known to the Republic and others through their production of clone armies. It also makes the Republic military's eventual turn against the Jedi a lot harder to pull off.

Great change.

Err-I gave up on the EU halfway through the NJO, so this might be simple ignorance of later (real-world chronologically speaking) material, but where was it said that Kamino itself produced anything beyond the actual troopers and presumably personal gear? At least from the movies, there's no mention of where and by whom the various hardware the clones use is manufactured.

I'm pretty sure that the Kuat Drive Yards and some of its subsidary companies and other military hardware corporations provided the ships, tanks, guns, etc. Kamino only provided the soldiers.

Darth Ruinus wrote:I'm pretty sure that the Kuat Drive Yards and some of its subsidary companies and other military hardware corporations provided the ships, tanks, guns, etc. Kamino only provided the soldiers.

Indeed. Rothana Heavy Engineering supplied everything from their capital ships to their tanks to the gunships. BlasTech Industries made all their guns. Though to be fair, Kamino did provide their armor with design assistance from Jango Fett for the Phase I armor and then with input from the clone veterans for the Phase II armor.