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And you therefore have a license to bulldoze anyone you please?

No they don't aI never said they did. I've said if he really did kill her intentionally then he ought to be hauled up on murder charges. And it sure as hell isn't Israeli policy to squash peaceful protestors with bulldozers.

So the Israelis come in, kick the Palestinians out, and backed with the support of the rest of the world, establish their "Jewish homeland," and then we're supposed to sympathize with them when the people they forcibly kicked out and now relegate to the status of second-class citizens in "occupied territories" resort to extreme methods to get their land back?

It could have been handled better. The Palestinians should been given full citizenship at that point. It wasn't handled well at all but frankly I feel little sympathy for the Palestinians when they begin a campaign of terror. They're just murdering innocent people, not fighting a war, murdering the innocent and you seem unable to see that.

The Palestinians have a case but they sure as hell ought to stop their campaign of murdering civilians.

I'm not saying that the Israelis deserve suicide bombings, but the Palestinians certainly didn't deserve to just be shoved out of the way so that the Jews could have a home nation. Both sides are at least as bad as each other, and they almost deserve each other.

Both sides are flawed and have a lot they need to work out. Israeli is there to stay now at this point, just like Europeans in America. The Palestinians need to learn simply committing murder isn't going to do anything but convince the world at large they don't deserve a nation. Israel is far from perfect but they haven't made a national (indeed constitutional!) policy of obliterating their rivals.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200 ... 3912-8738r

There seems to be a growing outcry about this now.

Great visibility on the thing. However, from what I've read the driver saw the moron and changed course several times but she kept moving into its path. Eventually she was to close to be seen and got crushed.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Great visibility on the thing. However, from what I've read the driver saw the moron and changed course several times but she kept moving into its path. Eventually she was to close to be seen and got crushed.

If he knew she was angling around to get in his path, it's pretty obvious that he knew she was there. The fact that people were screaming at him through megaphones should have helped too. It's pretty obvious that he simply got fed up and decided to barrel forward under the assumption that she'd be able to get out of the way (either that, or casual disregard for human life, or perhaps a bit of both). And as usual, they call it an "accident".

Darth Wong wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:Great visibility on the thing. However, from what I've read the driver saw the moron and changed course several times but she kept moving into its path. Eventually she was to close to be seen and got crushed.

If he knew she was angling around to get in his path, it's pretty obvious that he knew she was there. The fact that people were screaming at him through megaphones should have helped too. It's pretty obvious that he simply got fed up and decided to barrel forward under the assumption that she'd be able to get out of the way (either that, or casual disregard for human life, or perhaps a bit of both). And as usual, they call it an "accident".

The Engine in a D-9 is over a thousand Hp IIRC, combined that with armor that will stop heavy machine gun fire and your not going to be able to hear shit.

I'd say its intentional, stupidity on her part. If your stupid enough to run in front of a bulldozer multipul times in a combat zone and get crushed I place blaim solely on the dead person.

As for being run over twice, who knows? The driver might have decided he should pull back to avoid hitting her.

Stormbringer wrote:

And you therefore have a license to bulldoze anyone you please?

No they don't aI never said they did. I've said if he really did kill her intentionally then he ought to be hauled up on murder charges. And it sure as hell isn't Israeli policy to squash peaceful protestors with bulldozers.

That much is debatable.

It could have been handled better. The Palestinians should been given full citizenship at that point. It wasn't handled well at all but frankly I feel little sympathy for the Palestinians when they begin a campaign of terror. They're just murdering innocent people, not fighting a war, murdering the innocent and you seem unable to see that.

I feel badly for the majority of Palestinians, who are not terrorists and who have no killed Israeli civilians. They get the exact same treatment as the terrorists.

Both sides are flawed and have a lot they need to work out. Israeli is there to stay now at this point, just like Europeans in America. The Palestinians need to learn simply committing murder isn't going to do anything but convince the world at large they don't deserve a nation. Israel is far from perfect but they haven't made a national (indeed constitutional!) policy of obliterating their rivals.

I'd hardly call that a fair situation. This sounds horrible, but what else can the Palestinians do? Engage the IDF, who are funded by the United States and have vastly superior manpower and weaponry? Or lie down and accept second-class citizenry after being unfairly thrown out of a land they'd had a claim on for over 10 generations?

No, I think the only fair thing to do in this case would be to boot Israel out and find another place for them to stay.

Darth Wong wrote:USING A FUCKING MEGAPHONE to tell the driver that there was somebody in front of him,

I plead ignorance of IDF policies here but is it safe to assume that the driver spoke English as opposed to Hebrew or Yiddish?

Of course if the driver saw her then this is a moot point...

No, I think the only fair thing to do in this case would be to boot Israel out and find another place for them to stay.

So are you saying that the solution for this problem is to make it someone else's? I don't think there are very many open spaces left in the world where a nation of Jews can just up and settle down in. You WILL be displacing SOMEONE from their land and this viscious cycle begins anew. No, they are stuck with this problem and there will only be two solutions.

The Israelis utterly annhilate the Palestinians.

The Palestinians and Isrealis come to terms with the fact that they have to live with each other or be destroyed. In other words the Palestinians will be destroyed unless they learn that they have no choice but to form their own nation and just suck it up. There's no way militarily that they can kick the Israelies out so its time to reach a diplomatic solution. That will never happen with Yasser because of a very simple reason, he will be killed if there is peace.

They will turn against ecah other and start stringing up their leadership when they realize that they will nto have all their land back and more importantly of all when they're hatred is no longer focussed outside and see just how thouroughly corrupt their leadership is and how millions have been funnelled into private bank accounts. Vengeance will be swift and bloody.

Stravo wrote:

No, I think the only fair thing to do in this case would be to boot Israel out and find another place for them to stay.

So are you saying that the solution for this problem is to make it someone else's?

I'm saying that the solution to this extraordinarily poor and unfair solution to the problem of Jewish people wanting a homeland is to look somewhere less volatile and populated.

I don't think there are very many open spaces left in the world where a nation of Jews can just up and settle down in. You WILL be displacing SOMEONE from their land and this viscious cycle begins anew. No, they are stuck with this problem and there will only be two solutions.

And so you choose the place populated by fanatical religious people who really weren't bothering anyone to call your "homeland" and forcibly remove them from there without even asking them if they think it's fair? That's bullshit.

The Israelis utterly annhilate the Palestinians.

The Palestinians and Isrealis come to terms with the fact that they have to live with each other or be destroyed. In other words the Palestinians will be destroyed unless they learn that they have no choice but to form their own nation and just suck it up. There's no way militarily that they can kick the Israelies out so its time to reach a diplomatic solution. That will never happen with Yasser because of a very simple reason, he will be killed if there is peace.

Then why don't we withdraw our support from Israel and let the two sides fight it out on even terms? Whoever wins gets the land. Granted, it's a situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I don't see why we should keep exacerbating our monumentous fuckup to choose that strip of sand of all places for the new Jewish homeland by continuing to fund Israel. Hell, the people that originally came up with the idea of a Jewish state didn't even say that it had to be Palestine! They said it could be anywhere! Of all the places to go, there is no justification for the choice they made.

They will turn against ecah other and start stringing up their leadership when they realize that they will nto have all their land back and more importantly of all when they're hatred is no longer focussed outside and see just how thouroughly corrupt their leadership is and how millions have been funnelled into private bank accounts. Vengeance will be swift and bloody.

And maybe the situation will just solve itself. Personally, I'm finding it hard to sympathize with either side, but from a purely ideaological standpoint, the Palestinians' position is more valid than the Israelis'. Of course, their methods are certainly not the best way of making their voices heard, but these are desperate people.

Hell, the people that originally came up with the idea of a Jewish state didn't even say that it had to be Palestine!

Uganda of all places was considered at one point, sometime in the 19th century; if my memory serves me, it was the British gov't that made the offer. I think the more exteme Zionists rejected it, however ("the Torah doesn't say anything about Uganda!").

I'm coming close to locking this thread, because it's basically becoming an Israel/Palestine thread instead of an "IDF has no fucking disgression" thread, with all of the same old arguments (I feel sorely tempted to comment on some of the claims being made, but it's all been said before). Any reason why I shouldn't lock this?

In the Toronto Star, the reports say that the Bulldozer ran over her TWICE, and that she was still alive until they got her to hospital. Sounds like every bone in her body was crushed.

And this soldier has not been publicly crucified by the Shrub administration...why?

Darth Wong wrote:I'm coming close to locking this thread, because it's basically becoming an Israel/Palestine thread instead of an "IDF has no fucking disgression" thread, with all of the same old arguments (I feel sorely tempted to comment on some of the claims being made, but it's all been said before). Any reason why I shouldn't lock this?

I think you're right. Go ahead and lock it now or give others a chance to respond to my comments if they so desire.

This is what happened according to the New York Times:

[quote="New York Times]
When the bulldozer approached a house today, Ms. Corrie, who was wearing a bright orange jacket, dropped to her knees, a practice that members of the group to which she belonged, the International Solidarity Movement, have used repeatedly, her colleagues at the scene said.

As the bulldozer reached her without slowing up, she began to rise, but was trapped beneath a pile of dirt generated by its blade and the blade itself, said one member of the group, Tom Dale, who said he was standing about 30 feet away.

"We were shouting and waving our arms at the driver," said Mr. Dale, who is British. "We even had a megaphone. But the bulldozer kept going until she was under the body or the tracks of the bulldozer."

The bulldozer stopped for a few seconds and pulled back, Mr. Dale added. Her colleagues rushed to Ms. Corrie, who was bleeding from the head and face and badly wounded, but still breathing. An ambulance took her to Najar Hospital, where she died. She had a fractured skull and other injuries, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator.

[/quote]
link to the article

If she was kneeling, then I don't think the driver could have seen her.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

This is what happened according to the New York Times:

[quote="New York Times]
When the bulldozer approached a house today, Ms. Corrie, who was wearing a bright orange jacket, dropped to her knees, a practice that members of the group to which she belonged, the International Solidarity Movement, have used repeatedly, her colleagues at the scene said.

As the bulldozer reached her without slowing up, she began to rise, but was trapped beneath a pile of dirt generated by its blade and the blade itself, said one member of the group, Tom Dale, who said he was standing about 30 feet away.

"We were shouting and waving our arms at the driver," said Mr. Dale, who is British. "We even had a megaphone. But the bulldozer kept going until she was under the body or the tracks of the bulldozer."

The bulldozer stopped for a few seconds and pulled back, Mr. Dale added. Her colleagues rushed to Ms. Corrie, who was bleeding from the head and face and badly wounded, but still breathing. An ambulance took her to Najar Hospital, where she died. She had a fractured skull and other injuries, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator.

[/quote]
link to the article

If she was kneeling, then I don't think the driver could have seen her.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Darth Wong wrote:I'm coming close to locking this thread, because it's basically becoming an Israel/Palestine thread instead of an "IDF has no fucking disgression" thread, with all of the same old arguments (I feel sorely tempted to comment on some of the claims being made, but it's all been said before). Any reason why I shouldn't lock this?

No, I'm surprised it was allowed to last past the first page or so.

That much is debatable.

Not really. Like I've said, it sounds like if it wasn't an accident (and we still haven't heard the whole story) it was the idiocy of one guy.

I feel badly for the majority of Palestinians, who are not terrorists and who have no killed Israeli civilians. They get the exact same treatment as the terrorists.

But they also support those terrorist and a lot of them send their kids out to throw rocks at terrorists. They've also got a government riddled from top to bottom with terrorists.

The Palestinians have gotten a raw deal but their response is at least as responsible for their current situation.

I'd hardly call that a fair situation. This sounds horrible, but what else can the Palestinians do? Engage the IDF, who are funded by the United States and have vastly superior manpower and weaponry? Or lie down and accept second-class citizenry after being unfairly thrown out of a land they'd had a claim on for over 10 generations?

Ever heard of Ganhdi? Ever heard of Martin Luther King Jr? Peaceful protest would be a good start. Civil disobedience and disruption would go a long why towards waking the world up to their plight without compromising it with violence. And if the IDF did come down on them (and that would be a hell of a lot less likely) they would have the moral high ground.

No, I think the only fair thing to do in this case would be to boot Israel out and find another place for them to stay.

Then I would suggest you hand the deed to your house and property to the nearest Native American and leave. The Israelis, like it or not, there to stay and the sensible thing for both to do would be to make an effort at real negotiation.

fgalkin wrote:This is what happened according to the New York Times:

New York Times wrote: When the bulldozer approached a house today, Ms. Corrie, who was wearing a bright orange jacket, dropped to her knees, a practice that members of the group to which she belonged, the International Solidarity Movement, have used repeatedly, her colleagues at the scene said.

As the bulldozer reached her without slowing up, she began to rise, but was trapped beneath a pile of dirt generated by its blade and the blade itself, said one member of the group, Tom Dale, who said he was standing about 30 feet away.

"We were shouting and waving our arms at the driver," said Mr. Dale, who is British. "We even had a megaphone. But the bulldozer kept going until she was under the body or the tracks of the bulldozer."

The bulldozer stopped for a few seconds and pulled back, Mr. Dale added. Her colleagues rushed to Ms. Corrie, who was bleeding from the head and face and badly wounded, but still breathing. An ambulance took her to Najar Hospital, where she died. She had a fractured skull and other injuries, said Dr. Ali Moussa, a hospital administrator.

link to the article

If she was kneeling, then I don't think the driver could have seen her.

Sounds reasonable given the conflicting (and biased) accounts. If she did that I doubt he could see or hear her. I'd like to see an investigation but it sounds like an accident thanks to a dumbassed protester.

I've worked around some heavy construction equipment. It's loud and the potential for injury high for those that are careless. Dangerous enough even if you're being caregful and she was putting herself in harms way.

Please lock it. It's clear that Palestine and Israel are BOTH WRONG! Better yet, DELETE this thread!!

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:Please lock it. It's clear that Palestine and Israel are BOTH WRONG! Better yet, DELETE this thread!!

Shut up Ein. There's no need to delete it. At most it should just be locked.

Lock. Don't delete.

Coyote wrote:

Wicked Pilot wrote:No, we blame the Israelis for going into Gaza and bulldozing people's homes, shooting or running over whoever tries to stand up to them. How many more civilians will they murder before this shit ends?

When the Palestinians also stop murdering civilians too, perhaps?

Perhaps that will happen after Israelis stop murdering civilians. Where does the cycle end?




A very quick rant of mine before this thread is closed
It pisses me off to no end that in this day and age we still have people killing each other over some fucking worthless peace of desert because their stupid holy book says they're entitled to it by God himself. Fuck them all!

Darth Wong wrote:I'm coming close to locking this thread, because it's basically becoming an Israel/Palestine thread instead of an "IDF has no fucking disgression" thread, with all of the same old arguments (I feel sorely tempted to comment on some of the claims being made, but it's all been said before). Any reason why I shouldn't lock this?

Well, it started with a new development on the conflict in the Middle East, but quickly degenerated into an I/P debate.

I say both sides are wrong. Hundreds of people don't have to die in a fight over a strip of desert half the size of New Jersey. Either the Isrealis stop mistreating the Palestinians, or the Palestinians move elsewhere.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:I say both sides are wrong. Hundreds of people don't have to die in a fight over a strip of desert half the size of New Jersey. Either the Isrealis stop mistreating the Palestinians, or the Palestinians move elsewhere.

Problem is neither side will budge and so the cycle continues.