Alien mecha designs

[Stark]

The rogue military labour at the start of Patlabor, when it detects the SDF ambush, lights up some kind of turbine and lifts itself off the ground to escape at high speed. Its legs fold back and it zooms off, only to be knocked back to the ground by choppers, whereupon its legs apparently still work and the SDF blow the fuck out of it with Gustavs and 120mm machineguns.



BUT IT WAS EMPTY DUN DUN DUN.

EDIT - fuckin stax desynced me wah

[Purple]

Here is a thought I had. In the future, jamming is presumably going to be a big thing. So stuff like guided missiles might be taken out of the picture. In that case, it might make sense to have a direct fire artillery piece that is relatively high so that it can have a greater direct fire range for stuff like tank hunting or being an assault gun. And once you do that, it also makes sense to give it a mechanism to elevate and depress the whole body to allow you to hide it. So you might end up with something like a tank with legs where the legs are just a huge variable suspension placed between the tracks and the hull. And things spiral out from there...

[Stark]

Heavy jamming affecting guided or long range weapons has been one of the cores of robit shows for forty years.

[Purple]

Exactly. But I am mostly probing the ground for a project I have on another forum and this thread felt good for that.

[Stark]

Saying 'I had an idea' when it's so old and generally used that its sometimes simply taken for granted is an odd thing to do, but whatever. Are legs a good idea for vehicles that will have very high recoil? In most shows artillery units are either heavily modified or don't have legs to start with.

[Purple]

Saying 'I had an idea' when it's so old and generally used that its sometimes simply taken for granted is an odd thing to do, but whatever.

Not really. You see, the idea part is that I actually want to see if such a thing would be practical and useful as opposed to lulz.

Are legs a good idea for vehicles that will have very high recoil? In most shows artillery units are either heavily modified or don't have legs to start with.

I imagine the gun would be mounted on some sort of recoiling mount where the whole gun and mount recoil. Sort of like railroad guns.

[Stark]

Dismissing rich scifi universes with 'lulz' just makes you look ignorant. But I'm not sure it makes sense to say 'like a railway gun' (I assume you mean cradle recoil) when say fully elevated quad legs is going to be far less stable than a train on rails. A moving gun cradle and a narrow footprint is probably not a good idea.

The lulz shows just don't have artillery with legs (or deploy supplementary bracing, use recoilless weapons or rockets, etc).

[Purple]

Dismissing rich scifi universes with 'lulz' just makes you look ignorant.

You have me all wrong. I love soft SF mecha stuff. (like Eva...) It's just that for the particular project I can't do soft, like the idea and want to see if it can work with harder science.

But I'm not sure it makes sense to say 'like a railway gun' (I assume you mean cradle recoil) when say fully elevated quad legs is going to be far less stable than a train on rails. A moving gun cradle and a narrow footprint is probably not a good idea.

Yes, a recoil cradle. Also, imagine it being on a platform connected to the main hull via one or more piston like legs to elevate it. And besides, the recoil of tank guns and the like is not that big in terms of length.

The lulz shows just don't have artillery with legs (or deploy supplementary bracing, use recoilless weapons or rockets, etc).

You got me there.

[Jub]

If you needed better gun elevation wouldn't a tank that has a raisable turret be the better option? I'm picturing a tank, with a turret on armored hydraulic rams firing recoiless rounds. The turret would likely go with an autoloader and be unmanned. That way you get all the advantages of modern tanks and the crew can stay covered on the ground.

Just my idea though, may or may not make sense.

[Connor MacLeod]

yes a tank would be a better idea, but this isn't a 'alien tank design' thread, so its rather off topic.

Again the idea isn't most practical/realistic/makes sense' idea. Its about plausibility and 'makes sense' purely within confines of a mecha design.

[Stark]

I'm not sure you understand how recoil works, but ok. Recoil that rocks back a 70t tank at 2m is going to be a different story up at 10m or whatever height your legs lift to. Why does jamming lead to direct fire anyway? Even without radios indirect fire is possible, and direct fire need visible targetsin any case. Gundam has jamming so bad wire-guided missiles are interfered with, and they use regular artillery (and artillery suits) all the time.

Ps, I wasn't talking about EVN (which to my knowledge is about giant monsters and not robits). Your attitude remains hilarious. Jub's idea might be better than yours, because he's trying to make something that works rather than justify something that he wants. :v

Connor, did you watch that clip? That's a robit from the far future of 1998, combined arms, robits used for lightness and utility rather as invincible titans. It's a good counterpoint to people like Purple who think 'giant robots' = 'soft scifi lulz'.

[Connor MacLeod]

Connor, did you watch that clip? That's a robit from the far future of 1998, combined arms, robits used for lightness and utility rather as invincible titans. It's a good counterpoint to people like Purple who think 'giant robots' = 'soft scifi lulz'.

yeah I noticed all that. I rather liked the parachuting in of the mechs too. If they have helicopters and planes and stuff, do they also have tanks too? I'd assume so.

I frankly wish people would stop treating 'soft' sci fi as if it were a dirty word (or the implied WE MUST SEGREGATE SCI FI TO KEEP IT PURE) implicit.

[Stark]

Yeah, they use tanks extensively, but obviously not in the woods. When Tokyo is occupied by the military in Patlabor 2, the majority of their armoured vehicles are tanks - probably because labours are relatively new. The rogue labour in that clip seems to be a testbed for the VTOL thing, as similar six-legged robits are seen in other areas as command units, road patrol vehicles, etc.

And they parachute mechs in because obviously chasing it down is retarded. Call the air-mobile guys, drop them ahead of it, and no walking for hours requiring a week of maintenance. When the cops deploy their robits, it's on flatbed trucks. :v

[Jub]

yes a tank would be a better idea, but this isn't a 'alien tank design' thread, so its rather off topic.

Again the idea isn't most practical/realistic/makes sense' idea. Its about plausibility and 'makes sense' purely within confines of a mecha design.

I was just responding to the idea that if you needed an elevated dirrect fire weapon you need a mech. Of course you might want a mech anyway for the reason talked about above. There isn't anything wrong with that either.

[Connor MacLeod]

I was just responding to the idea that if you needed an elevated dirrect fire weapon you need a mech. Of course you might want a mech anyway for the reason talked about above. There isn't anything wrong with that either.

Your idea was fine, its just that' it has to be a tank' that I was talking about. I mean I'm assuming you saw page one, right? Its a thread about mechs, and yet people still feel constrained to come in and lecture about how MECHA SUCK TANKS RULE, as if people are going to have spontaneous amneisa and forget this all at once. I mean fuck noone's actually disputing that idea here, the point is that we're assuming mechs are a forgone conclusion.

Your idea could be used (and I think Stark was going for this) if you had a mech with shorter legs, and just mount the gun on a tower (instead of like treads, or wheels or whatever.) Instead of say, like the AT-AT, where its big, top heavy, on very thin legs.

Bear in mind this assumes a weapon capable of direct fire only (EG like a laser) and/or relatively short engagement ranges. Projectiel cannon could do indirect fire, and depending on the kind of cannon/ammo you used you could get very long ranges (think the proposed navy railgun, as one example) No need for a tower there, is there?

I'm also not saying you couldn't put treads or whatever on a mecha if you wanted and it fit the story idea you had, its just that I'd prefer it staying 'tank free' from this point on. sorry if I seemed harsh

[Jub]

I was just responding to the idea that if you needed an elevated dirrect fire weapon you need a mech. Of course you might want a mech anyway for the reason talked about above. There isn't anything wrong with that either.

Your idea was fine, its just that' it has to be a tank' that I was talking about. I mean I'm assuming you saw page one, right? Its a thread about mechs, and yet people still feel constrained to come in and lecture about how MECHA SUCK TANKS RULE, as if people are going to have spontaneous amneisa and forget this all at once. I mean fuck noone's actually disputing that idea here, the point is that we're assuming mechs are a forgone conclusion.

Your idea could be used (and I think Stark was going for this) if you had a mech with shorter legs, and just mount the gun on a tower (instead of like treads, or wheels or whatever.)

I'm also not saying you couldn't put treads or whatever on a mecha if you wanted and it fit the story idea you had, its just that I'd prefer it staying 'tank free' from this point on. sorry if I seemed harsh

No, you weren't being overly harsh, I was just pointing out why I even brought it up.

Think on this idea a bit I actually think this idea could work as a mech. If somebody wanted to make a robot with four treads on reasonably sturdy legs and mount an elevated turret on it that could be cool. If you did the joints right it could even lower the crew cab down into dips in the terrain as it moves to give greater protection and then raise the crew above the standard operating hieght while crossing a mine field. It would be costly for the added protection it offers, but at does give a few advantages over a straight tank design.

[Connor MacLeod]

When the cops deploy their robits, it's on flatbed trucks. :v

So the police in Patlabor have their own mechs too? That's pretty nifty too.

I had a discussion with a guy recently re: power armour (related but different topic) and he was commenting how power armour (or exoskeletons) might be viable for law enforcement or intenral security purposes rather than outright military ones. I imagine that you could do similar with at least certain kinds of mechs.

[Stark]

The shows/movies are about the TMPD's Special Vehicle Division; they're tasked to work on cases requiring or involving labors. Giant robits change society gotta deal with it etc. 80% of their office is the maintenance bay required for their 3ish robits and most of their staff aren't pilots (or even police, given all the support guys on the base).

It's really the antithesis of the idea that robits need to REPLACE TANKS BE UBBER to be either valid or in interesting situations.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, its a good example of how the 'mech' concept may not be 'practical' in some ideas, its far from totally arbitrary. I mean exploring the ideas a technology or vehicle/device has on society isn't a new one, but it can be one with alot of possibilities and it can be a good reason to be lax with REALISM.

I also wonder how perceptions are playing into this. I mean, when people hear 'mech/mecha' what is it they're envisioning? Just how broad a category are they seeing it as being? Do they envision a particular shape, size, etc. or what? Perception might also be influencing the 'role' aspect of mechsl - (EG: vehicle analogue to power-armoured, genetically engineered super soldiers or something) even though that idea doesn't fit every case - or even most of them?

As an aside: What about those blue spider tanks from Stand Alone Complex? Would they be mechs, or something else? I remember seeing them a few times, and they look like support vehicles (in the employ of an internal security/police force, or something like it at least.) for the agents/troops.

[Stark]

That thing you hit is really the head of the nail. I think there are heaps of immediate assumptions people make, which is why discussion is almost impossible in some situations.

Those are called 'sentient tanks' in the series, but I group them with 'robits'. The terms mech and mecha are inferior and don't cover a lot of what you'll talk about, because of the baggage they bring with them. While the tachikoma intelligent (indeed, too intelligent) and carry a single crewman, they're similar in layout to more standard military robits. Similarly, large mobile armours like Shamblo or Neue Zeil in Gundam aren't really humanoid, but are certainly in the family of 'silly robits', because ones an MRLS and the other is a battle cruiser ... Only robots.

[jollyreaper]

In a ubiquitous jamming environment, wouldn't home-on-jam missiles be the first thing fired? Or are the jamming units sufficiently distant from the fight that they cannot be practically engaged?

And how about optical or IR tracking if radar is hopeless?

[Stark]

Dude in gundam the jamming environment is so hostile, wire guided missiles are interfered with and can't be held on target. This is why speakin in general terms (where jam-homing seems reasonable) isn't always helpful. It's certainly missing the point.

[Zinegata]

Also in reply to jollyreaper...

Dude in gundam the jamming environment is so hostile, wire guided missiles are interfered with and can't be held on target. This is why speakin in general terms (where jam-homing seems reasonable) isn't always helpful. It's certainly missing the point.

You probably meant everything except wire-guided missiles can be jammed. Minovksy affects radar and various IR, but it hasn't quite managed to start cutting cables for people yet. Otherwise the interference would be so bad that even a mech's internal circuitry would be affected.

But wire-guideds are problematic anyway which is why Mobile Suits are practical in the Gundam world. Plus the whole AMBAC magic that makes Mobile Suits more maneuverable than space fighters.

Optical-guideds may exist in Gundam, but folks have developed stuff like Dummy Balloons to fool them.

As for the specific point of Home-on-Jamming... it doesn't work in Gundam because the M-particles are persistent. Once they're spread in an area, it stays jammed.

[Stark]

Sorry dude, in IGLOO their missiles are shown having to be manually kept on target and constantly spazzing out and going to the top left like a joystick in 1982. Doubtless they were able to harden shit a bit later, but it's just as likely all the cable-driven stuff just has bigger cables (like on wire-guided fists etc) which aren't practical for a missile that wants any range.

AMBAC isn't 'magic' and the highest linear performance suits are all fighter in layout anyway.

Actually, I've always said I should make a video of the missile thing, so maybe I'll do that now. IGLOO is one of the first things I watched, and seeing stuff like that sold the 'no really guided missiles will not work' pretty well.

[madd0ct0r]

dropping back onto the artillery thing - one universe i was reading (thinkbot) had 4 legged 'crab' Self prpelled artillery.

They scuttle into the right spot, vibrate their legs down into the ground for anchorage, fire and start moving again before the shell landed.