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PREDATOR490 wrote:The Federation sticking their noses into Klingon affairs and refusing them is going to end up in a major incident and we dont have Worf anymore to contain Gowron going nuts while Changeling Martok whispers in his ear. The Dominion would no doubt be estatic at the thought of a war between the Klingons and the Federation. The Federation actively aiding the Cardassians by giving that intel away is going to start that war.

The Feds wouldn't have to give the intel away (like they actually did albeit within the hour of the attack.) The Obsidian Order would undoubtedly extract it from the Federation. As far as the Federation not interfering. Would you allow a militant power like the Klingons send war fleets through your space, and use a sector you administer as a jumping off point for the complete conquest of an interstellar power? They werent invading to conquer a few systems, their aim was complete conquest. If I was the Federation, I would tell them to kiss my ass. And any diplomatic flare ups that occur would even further warn the Cardassians that something was up.

The Dominion already have a large fleet sitting around and the Gamma Quadrant has all their industry to make whatever more. Nothing really stops them from brute forcing through the wormhole if they decide to try and a war between the Feds and Klingons would be ample chance to try.
The Bajorans wont like the idea of closing the Wormhole and we have seen the Dominion have the means to make the Wormhole invulnerable.

The Bajorans didn't mind mining the wormhole. It should also be noted that in the Visitor timeline, the Dominion War didn't happen.

Also presumably the infomation that we communicate to the Feds, would be given before the Klingon's began even planning their invasion. It would essentially be revealing future events. (Though it is entirely possible the Klingons were planning their invasion well before the Central Command was overthrown, but it is unlikely such a massive military buildup would go undetected by the Obsidian Order.)

Yeah I'm one for supporting Soran to get inside of the Nexus, then shooting him with a phaser when his back is turned after he sends the Trilithium warhead into the Veridian sun and we get to experience the ultimate holodeck in the Nexus.

WesFox13 wrote:Yeah I'm one for supporting Soran to get inside of the Nexus, then shooting him with a phaser when his back is turned after he sends the Trilithium warhead into the Veridian sun and we get to experience the ultimate holodeck in the Nexus.

Except killing a bunch of people on one of the planets.

WesFox13 wrote:Yeah I'm one for supporting Soran to get inside of the Nexus, then shooting him with a phaser when his back is turned after he sends the Trilithium warhead into the Veridian sun and we get to experience the ultimate holodeck in the Nexus.

For a death toll less than two hundred and thirty million, why not just track the nexus, and fly into it with a shuttle?

Gandalf wrote:

WesFox13 wrote:Yeah I'm one for supporting Soran to get inside of the Nexus, then shooting him with a phaser when his back is turned after he sends the Trilithium warhead into the Veridian sun and we get to experience the ultimate holodeck in the Nexus.

For a death toll less than two hundred and thirty million, why not just track the nexus, and fly into it with a shuttle?

Ah, good point, I totally forgot about the 4th planet when I posted that, my bad.

Gandalf wrote:

WesFox13 wrote:Yeah I'm one for supporting Soran to get inside of the Nexus, then shooting him with a phaser when his back is turned after he sends the Trilithium warhead into the Veridian sun and we get to experience the ultimate holodeck in the Nexus.

For a death toll less than two hundred and thirty million, why not just track the nexus, and fly into it with a shuttle?

Don't they specifically say in the movie that most ships that got into the Nexus get destroyed?

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Don't they specifically say in the movie that most ships that got into the Nexus get destroyed?

I never quite got that. They made a special point of putting that in the movie, where Picard and Data are in the Stellar Cartography room and Picard is all like, "Why is he trying to alter it's path, why doesn't he just fly into it with a ship?" And then Data says that any ship that goes near is destroyed.

When I was younger, I wondered to myself, "What does that matter? I mean, those ships they were on originally were destroyed, and they went to the Nexus." These days, I figure that it means that when ships are destroyed, this just so happens to actually kill anyone on board and not send them to the Nexus. I dunno. Shrapnel and fire and incineration probably gets to the body before the Ribbon does.

And yet, Kirk was swept into the nexus when the E-B took a glancing hit. Of course, Picard and Data didn't know about this, as far as they were concerned Kirk was killed by it. They seemed to have forgotten that the El-Aurians seemed to experience it briefly too (at least Soran and Guinan did, we don't hear about any of the others). Soran's ranting at the time was obviously not taken seriously, but the experience of the ribbon changed him more than the Borg did. It wasn't the fact that time had no meaning in the nexus (El-Aurians are extremely long-lived after all), it's the fact that you're effectively in heaven that drove Soran to obsess about it.

It does beg the question though, why not simply beam off the ship in a spacesuit in the predicted path of the ribbon? Since they can work out its path pretty effectively you could have your ship drop you off while the ribbon is too far away to be a threat, wait for it to come to you. If it misses, your ship comes back and picks you up and if need be, try again. The ribbon couldn't have been going that fast since an Excelsior class ship can keep up with it easily enough after all.

Was the big E heading after or towards the ribbon though? I don't rightly don't know, just that she, as usual, was the only ship in interception range.
Are we ever explicitely told Guinan and Soren were actually part of the El-Aurians? It fits with the timeframe for the destruction of her people she gave in 'Q Who' but for some reason I was always under the impression that when the ribbon hit the refugee ships, they were pulled out of the Nexus, rather than briefly being sucked into it.

As for the spacesuit vs ship issue, I don't see why the suit should stand a better chance than a ship? A ship has a lot more mass, yet both refugee ships were destroyed by the ribbon without, as far as we can tell, any of the people still aboard being sucked into the Nexus. Indeed, Soren redirecting the Nexus to planet whatever so he could get back in at least in my opinion implies that the more massive the object you're on, the better your chances of entering before/instead of it being blown to kingdom come.
Yes, Kirk was sucked off the Enterprise, but for all we know that was a gazillion in one freak accident.

Soren says to Geordi "You may or may not be aware that I am an El-Aurian. People call us a race of "listeners," we "listen."

Given that Guinan (past version) said "Tell my father I'm not done listening yet" in Time's Arrow part 1. So, yes, they are part of them.

As it's been eons since I saw Generations in english and I never did Time's Arrow it's entirely possible my memory is off, the translators blew it, or a combination of both.
But yes, that would be pretty good indicators they were part of the refugees.

And you see them after being beamed aboard the E-B, so, yeah.

Um-no. That only requires them to have been aboard the ships as of the beamoff point, not that they were among the original refugees.
As you said, it's pretty damned likely they were, but them being there to be beamed off doesn't figure into it.

Good point.

Checking the relevant section of the film shows the Lakul to be one of two ships transporting El-Aurian refugees to Earth. Also, the view on the E-B's viewscreen indicates they were coming up on the ribbon from behind.

We already know those ships were transporting El-Aurian refugees. My question was do we know Guinan and Soren were originally among them, the answer to which seems to be 'yes'.
So did we get enough information to conclude the E-B was trying to play catchup, as opposed to overshooting the ribbon and sneaking up on it from behind for some reason? I don't recall any information supporting this, but I don't recall any information contradicting it, either, and the visuals once the E-B got within range to do anything to begin with seem to indicate a decidedly sublight engagement.

Batman wrote:We already know those ships were transporting El-Aurian refugees. My question was do we know Guinan and Soren were originally among them, the answer to which seems to be 'yes'.
So did we get enough information to conclude the E-B was trying to play catchup, as opposed to overshooting the ribbon and sneaking up on it from behind for some reason? I don't recall any information supporting this, but I don't recall any information contradicting it, either, and the visuals once the E-B got within range to do anything to begin with seem to indicate a decidedly sublight engagement.

Quotes from ST:GEN, approx 47 minutes in.

"He's an El Aurian - over 300 years old"

"Soren escaped [The Borg], with a handful of other refugees aboard a ship called 'The Lakul'"

"I checked the passenger manifest of the Lakul. Guess who else was onboard?" [scene cuts to Picard talking to Guinan about this]


Yes; it's confirmed - both are El Aurians, the Lakul and the other ship were transporting the refugee El Aurians and Guinan and Soren were on the passenger manifest of the ship itself; they weren't in the Nexus previously.