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The problem with tractor beams being used to grab large numbers of starfighters is their limited range (ref. ESB). They clearly have problems grabbing maneuvering ships at significant ranges, from the movie.

They have less difficulty grabbing targets moving in a straight line (ref. ANH) at significant ranges. Thus, I think that a tractor beam in SW CAN grab a maneuvering target, but only at extremely close range, or with great difficulty.

Mr Bean wrote:First Kazuaki if you notice I rebuttted more than just you in there thats what that first part refers to

Then next time, PLEASE put it in the section for Gnome to avoid confusion, or just use two posts - you can pad your post count that way

As Corran was nice to Demostrate you don't have to fly Strait for a Bombing Run
Still the fact remains you have no evidance of a Tractor being able to hold a Manvoring Fighter

It is generally BEST if you fly straight, but certainly you don't have to. Accuracy generally suffers due to reduced accuracy of initial guidance from internal ship systems, but sure, you can do it.

Don't try and Tecno-babble it away its very clear what he did
He came to a full and complete stop, Also helping me prove my point that Tractors are not all that accurate

I know it is techo-babble, but nevertheless, he managed to somehow induce a delta-v that is GREATER than what his engines could normally provide. He might have pushed his engine to 1000% or whatever, but it was not Normal Full. He had been accelerating for some time now in general. Do YOU think that normal full reverse would cause "a scream of horribly stressed electronics" or nearly blow out the hyperdrive, or stop several seconds of high speed maneuvering in what apparently is one second?

The tractor beam lockon parameter does not normally plan for such high delta-vs. If the system's not designed for it, it would lose the lock.

Never directly blamed his Boss? His boss who was in charge of Training him?
He blaimed his boss and did not take responsbility for his actions THUS Thrawns line about a mistake only becomes and Error if you refuse to correct it
Had he said I screwed up such as the other guy who probably would have lived, Instead he tried to cover his ass and Thrawn had him killed.

It is a mutual compound. You assume that he could never have told the difference. IF that is true, then his statement "I was never properly trained for such an occurrence" will not be a lie or a way to shift responsibility. It is the TRUTH. It is the fault of the system, not him or his officer in particular. Sure, it could be put more diplomatically, but the man isn't a cultured officer. He's a conscript from god knows where. He should not be killed. He goofed, but one cannot be faulted just for not being to create an improvisation every day on the spot.

Even if he said flat out, "Ensign Colclazure never taught me how to do this" If the statement is true, then it is STILL OK.

But, if his statement is false, and he SHOULD have been properly trained, then he LIED and tried to shift responsibility. That lying SOB is an error that has to be eliminated. It is an error to have taught that asshole anything in the first place.

He did not Stop he moved in a strait line why the Tractor got him and yes he was Evading after he broke free but he had to have stoped and leveled out to go on into Hyperspace or do you want to dispute everything from the Movies down to WEG where a ship most level out for a controled Hyperspace jump(Bacta War for example Corran Says that as long as a Ship is Jinking it can't go to Lightspeed but must remain in level flight)
And besides it quite nicley explains how Luke managed to get hit if he is after all the best pilot in the galaxy as you claim that explains how he got hit at all

I meant STOPPED EVASIVE MANEUVERING.

The man isn't even fully out of the Interdictor cone yet at that time. Jinking tends to disrupt the navicomputer's operation, because it constantly changes your vector and speed. But Luke is just telling R2D2 to take him anywhere. He can keep jinking till the elongation part without disrupting anything.

Yes, a CONTROLLED HYPERSPACE JUMP does require stabilization, but Luke clearly told R2 to screw a navicomputer solution or direction.

It is far too early for him to stop while he is still in the cone. The BOOK strongly implies the second time, he was jinking right up to the time when he was finally out of the cone and R2's warble came. Why would he not do that the first time, eh?

EU mentions the Cannon has a slow firing rate and did not support all the Transports(Flying of the planet from one spot makes it rather easy to shoot them down)

It may not have supported ALL the transports, but that's still way from saying that it supported no one except the first. And some may even be all equipment transports.

Its also true that a Non-Moving Target is much easier to Disable than a moving one yet we don't see them doing that do we?

If you have a stable firing solution, you can either choose to lay a tractor onto it, OR you can choose to lay a gun on it. For disabling, I'll lay a gun. Even if I use a tractor, I'll STILL have to disable it with fire to make sure my shuttles don't get blasted as I close in.

First kindly define FCS as its not a term I'm familiar with and second you say that but agian

You have no proof

FCS has two definitions. Fire Control System and Fire Control Solution. Generally, the context tells you which one is it. There is no firm proof, BUT it is logical.

Face it the point is simple if Tractors could grap Fighters then the Rebel Allance would not have lasted very long, The Fighters at Yavin 4 flew right AT the Tracotors and yet where not touched. Any ISD could easly hold of a few Squadrens of Fighters by pinning them in place and destroying them with point defense yet we never EVER see them doing this

They can hold ONE squadron, MAX. They only have ten tractor projectors, remember?

This is a pitiful false dilemma. Generally, SW tracking systems as a WHOLE are marginal against starfighters. Between how small they are, the ECM they put out and their evasive maneuvering - well, in fact, a smuggler-grade set might be no help at all, as suggested in the Hutt Gambit when Han tells them that they have to aim at TIEs by eye rather than sensor.

But it does not mean it is impossible to knock down or lock up a starfighter, does it?

Here's the basic solution set. There are actually very few circumstances when a tractor beam is worth that much in battle.

If you can get a positive lock on something small, like a starfighter, then what would you rather to shoot at it with. A tractor, or a gun. Most starfighter pilots aren't worth the capture. You'll probably choose the gun.

As for larger ships, they ALREADY have a positive lock all the time. If they have a positive lock all the time, the tractor's value becomes marginal.

For kills, tractor beams are of marginal usefulness. Only for the occasional capture attempt are they truly useful. In fact, Pellaeon had to make a special order for tractors in SOTE.

Kazuaki Shimazaki, you seem to say that because SW targetting sensors and FC systems can accurately target starfighters, ALL of their systems can do so. You fail to recognize that targeting a small ship with a tractor beam may be completely different from targeting one with a turbolaser that propogates at light speed. Obviously it is more difficult to aim at a distant target with a shotgun than it is with a rifle, because the two weapons use different systems. The same may be true with tractor beams and turbolasers.

Because the mechanisms of the two weapons are different, their accuracies may necessarily be different. This is demonstrated by the examples I talked about in my last post.

Okay, it's official: Bean's flipped his lid.

Let me suggest something besides tractoring. Empion mines will knock out the SC's systems with EM pulse and Ion pulse. It also works on ships in hyperspace by dragging them out into realspace with a grav pulse.

SPOOFE wrote:Okay, it's official: Bean's flipped his lid.

I don't completely agree with Bean, but I think he is MUCH closer to the mark than either of the people debating him.

So you come back for more?(And now I can say that for you to )

It is generally BEST if you fly straight, but certainly you don't have to. Accuracy generally suffers due to reduced accuracy of initial guidance from internal ship systems, but sure, you can do it.

I'd reaaaly like to hear your explination of any SW ships that can fly into Hyperspace sideways Or upsides down(Though space is relative) or at a Slant. But to be exact Corran stats in Bacta War that a ship can't go into Hyperspace unless it is leveled out and going strait
When Issard does this he gets ready to Ram her because she's about to get away and well you know the rest

I know it is techo-babble, but nevertheless, he managed to somehow induce a delta-v that is GREATER than what his engines could normally provide. He might have pushed his engine to 1000% or whatever, but it was not Normal Full. He had been accelerating for some time now in general. Do YOU think that normal full reverse would cause "a scream of horribly stressed electronics" or nearly blow out the hyperdrive, or stop several seconds of high speed maneuvering in what apparently is one second?

Or in other words
He was at a full and complete stop his tray tables where in the up and locked position
Sure he fried his Engines but thats because his Enginers are desinged to Push One Way(Forward) for maxium efficany and if you notice they are mounted in a certian way as that the engines are one directional they are bolted(Wielded) To aim one way and just that one way, To draw a comparsion of what he did its as if he was flying a Jet Fighter and in Mid Flight Fliped the Controls over so the Engines where pulling in air from the back rather than the front causeing lots of screaming and possibly an exploision
The fact he did not go Kaboom indicits the Dependable and Strength of SW Materials in General and Incom in paritcular
But nothing else

The tractor beam lockon parameter does not normally plan for such high delta-vs. If the system's not designed for it, it would lose the lock.

Incorrect, The Tractor is not designed for Rapid Changes in Speed by the Target(Which is not always Delta-V but we can use it for this)
Not a HUGE speed as if its too fast the ISD won't be able to keep up but rather the rapid changes of Veolicty is what gets it from being able to lock on

Alot of stuff about wither or not the guy lied
*Snip snip, sorry it was just to long-Bean

Let me ask you think
Considering, THRAWN is the one we are talking about, Do you think he could tell if the Ensign was lieing or not?

Next Part

Yadda yaadda yadda Luke said so Yadda yaadaa win free superbowl tickets Yadda

Don't think I have anything to disagree with here

Ok now the acutal quote

I meant STOPPED EVASIVE MANEUVERING.

The man isn't even fully out of the Interdictor cone yet at that time. Jinking tends to disrupt the navicomputer's operation, because it constantly changes your vector and speed. But Luke is just telling R2D2 to take him anywhere. He can keep jinking till the elongation part without disrupting anything.

Yes, a CONTROLLED HYPERSPACE JUMP does require stabilization, but Luke clearly told R2 to screw a navicomputer solution or direction.

It is far too early for him to stop while he is still in the cone. The BOOK strongly implies the second time, he was jinking right up to the time when he was finally out of the cone and R2's warble came.

Fine no problems here though I have to acutal add its said Jedis(COPL agian) don't need Nava computers to plot Hyperspace jumps if they don't want to prehaps Luke was filling in here?

It may not have supported ALL the transports, but that's still way from saying that it supported no one except the first. And some may even be all equipment transports.

All Equipment? Whos Flying? Where are the twenty person crew?

If you have a stable firing solution, you can either choose to lay a tractor onto it, OR you can choose to lay a gun on it.

I have to strongly disgree with you here as where is the OR?
The Power-Requirments for an ISD are designed around the Ship being able to have every single System running at the same time plus weapons shooting, Tractors Tractoring, Lights blinking, Boots Polishing you know the normal stuff. WHY is there an OR in there? You have the Power to shoot every gun at the same time plus have the Tractors and shielding running at 100% why the Or?
Why not both and do both always?


And lastly the part I disagree with most of all

They can hold ONE squadron, MAX. They only have ten tractor projectors, remember

If you can get a positive lock on something small, like a starfighter, then what would you rather to shoot at it with. A tractor, or a gun. Most starfighter pilots aren't worth the capture. You'll probably choose the gun.

Ahem, Considering the terrible ability of the Avarage ISD to kill Fighters with its Point Defense systems alone because they are manvoring so much would it not be smart to use every weapon you have INCLUDING TRACTORS
To Grap the Fighters hold them in place for you Guns to shoot?

Good idea eh? Never see it used, not even by Thrawn because as I have said before and provided Evidance for before
You have a better chance of graping a Fighter with a Tractor that you do of Winning the Lottery be struck by lightning on your way out the door and a 747 running over your dog all within five mintues of each other on a Monday during a Hail Storm during Deep summer

Made my point yet?

WE HAVE A WINNNER!

I've been waiting for somone to notice this Congrads Yoshi! Heres a cookie

Tractoring a SC in place is stuiped idiocit way of killing it when there is a much better way of doing it which I said before if you notice


Darth Yoshi FINALY you have stumbled onto the Correct Answear I was wondering when these duffers would remeber the OTHER 50 guns on the ISD


Ion Cannons

Inviclbe Armor or not Ion Cannons ignore Armor(pretty much) and Cause Elecitral Systems to overload and Crash rendering the Ship Derlict

I was hoping every post somone would say GEE what about an Ion Cannon?(Empion mines are an Ion Bomb)

Congrads to you, You saw what Daala and Co never did

Mr Bean wrote:WE HAVE A WINNNER!

I've been waiting for somone to notice this Congrads Yoshi! Heres a cookie

Tractoring a SC in place is stuiped idiocit way of killing it when there is a much better way of doing it which I said before if you notice


Darth Yoshi FINALY you have stumbled onto the Correct Answear I was wondering when these duffers would remeber the OTHER 50 guns on the ISD


Ion Cannons

Inviclbe Armor or not Ion Cannons ignore Armor(pretty much) and Cause Elecitral Systems to overload and Crash rendering the Ship Derlict

I was hoping every post somone would say GEE what about an Ion Cannon?(Empion mines are an Ion Bomb)

Congrads to you, You saw what Daala and Co never did

Unless it's well shielded against them. It would be pretty stupid to waste a fortune on invincible armor, if a simple ion cannon can knock out the ship.

Unless it's well shielded against them. It would be pretty stupid to waste a fortune on invincible armor, if a simple ion cannon can knock out the ship.

You forget it was a design model, Remeber who taught Que?

Bevel Lemisk!
What did Lemisk forget on the Death-star?
The Exaust Port!

What Did Que Forget?

Ion Cannons

Mr Bean wrote:WE HAVE A WINNNER!

I've been waiting for somone to notice this Congrads Yoshi! Heres a cookie

Tractoring a SC in place is stuiped idiocit way of killing it when there is a much better way of doing it which I said before if you notice


Darth Yoshi FINALY you have stumbled onto the Correct Answear I was wondering when these duffers would remeber the OTHER 50 guns on the ISD


Ion Cannons

Inviclbe Armor or not Ion Cannons ignore Armor(pretty much) and Cause Elecitral Systems to overload and Crash rendering the Ship Derlict

I was hoping every post somone would say GEE what about an Ion Cannon?(Empion mines are an Ion Bomb)

Congrads to you, You saw what Daala and Co never did

*Goes back a few hours**internal monologue* Hmmm, i wonder if I should post something about ion cannons. Wait maybe the Sun Crusher's armor protects them from that. Damn boring Jedi Academy book. Oh well, I'm feeling to lazy to do it anyways.

Damn it, that cookie could of been mine!!!!

give me a jedi and an a wing and I can do it. force the controls to come near you and kill the pilot with the force. if you want to destroy it, go aboard and tell it to fly into a blackhole.

The fact remains the SC can kill any Cap Ship VERY Quickly by Either Torping it or smashing a trail of descrution through the Hull and maybe killing the Cooling Section of the Main Reactor to hmm? After all the SC can withstand it

Your assuming that

A) The Sun Crusher will hit some vital area of the Star Destroyer

and

B) The Star Destroyer is located next to a black hole

Wouldn't all the SC do is make a small hole through the Star Destroyer? Given the size of a Star Destroyer and the size of the Sun Crusher in comparison, it would seem as if the probability of the SC hitting anything vital would be pretty small.

Mr Bean wrote:I'd reaaaly like to hear your explination of any SW ships that can fly into Hyperspace sideways Or upsides down(Though space is relative) or at a Slant. But to be exact Corran stats in Bacta War that a ship can't go into Hyperspace unless it is leveled out and going strait
When Issard does this he gets ready to Ram her because she's about to get away and well you know the rest

No one said at a slant. I said while you are escaping, you can continue to sideslip if you are not planning for a nav solution. A bunch of brief sideslips should be possible. Right as you pull the infamous level, you stop and you pull at the same time.

Or in other words
He was at a full and complete stop his tray tables where in the up and locked position
Sure he fried his Engines but thats because his Enginers are desinged to Push One Way(Forward) for maxium efficany and if you notice they are mounted in a certian way as that the engines are one directional they are bolted(Wielded) To aim one way and just that one way, To draw a comparsion of what he did its as if he was flying a Jet Fighter and in Mid Flight Fliped the Controls over so the Engines where pulling in air from the back rather than the front causeing lots of screaming and possibly an exploision
The fact he did not go Kaboom indicits the Dependable and Strength of SW Materials in General and Incom in paritcular
But nothing else

Actually, his sublight engines still worked just fine, so his nozzles and bell took it just fine. The problem seemed to be the high energy power surge that coursed through and wrecked everything in its path. The computer didn't lose the lock when he achieved full forward thrust, so it is obvious that normal delta-vs don't exceed the capabilities of the system. The only likely thing is that he exceeded normal delta-vs ranges positive and negative. Remember? He had to bypass some cutoffs. If you don't believe the acceleration compensator shit (I don't either) at least believe the cutoff part. The engine is not designed for that kind of impulse, backwards OR forwards.

Incorrect, The Tractor is not designed for Rapid Changes in Speed by the Target(Which is not always Delta-V but we can use it for this)
Not a HUGE speed as if its too fast the ISD won't be able to keep up but rather the rapid changes of Veolicty is what gets it from being able to lock on.

Actually, the rapid maneuvering can degrade a lock before it is formed, by IMHO IF the lock went on somehow (accident, skilled operator, whatever), then it takes desperate measures above the normal delta-v ranges.

Let me ask you think: Considering, THRAWN is the one we are talking about, Do you think he could tell if the Ensign was lieing or not?

I think Thrawn in fact is quite knowledgable about tractor beams in general. After he, he COULD say in certainty that there was nothing in the program that would even try to deal with Mithel's case. And of course he can tell the Ensign is, well, IMHO he's not lying. Pieterson is either lying or telling the truth because he was lazy (he slept during the course.)

It is very logical for the tractor system to at least have SOME rudimental facility for telling what you are locked to. Say at least a tension meter if nothing else. Or a range to target meter. If the target is suddenly much more cooperative (because they're protorps trying to come over anyway,) it is quite inconceivable that there would be NO change in any of the readouts. Or do you think they won't be able to tell if an object is tugging so hard back that the projector is about to be ripped out?

Fine no problems here though I have to acutal add its said Jedis(COPL agian) don't need Nava computers to plot Hyperspace jumps if they don't want to prehaps Luke was filling in here?

I doubt it. Luke told R2 not to even TRY plotting. I don't think he suddenly changed his mind.

All Equipment? Whos Flying? Where are the twenty person crew?

There you go. If there are precisely twenty lifeforms aboard, then it is almost certainly a all-cargo ship and can be destroyed.

I have to strongly disgree with you here as where is the OR?
The Power-Requirments for an ISD are designed around the Ship being able to have every single System running at the same time plus weapons shooting, Tractors Tractoring, Lights blinking, Boots Polishing you know the normal stuff. WHY is there an OR in there? You have the Power to shoot every gun at the same time plus have the Tractors and shielding running at 100% why the Or?
Why not both and do both always?

I wouldn't know precisely why, but from what little I know, at least in the Imperial Remnant Navy, to have the tractor beams activated requires an extra order. Whether it is because of a unfavorable utility ratio (effectiveness versus energy draw) or some other factor is unknown.

There is a OR. You are postulating that suppose I have a wing of annoying RA X-Wings coming in. SO I have to engage them. I should try and hold 36 planes with ten main tractor beams and execute them.

If I don't have a positive lock, then clearly the tractor is useless. With a localization (not pinpoint, just localize) I can order a flakburst pattern with my guns and fill up the uncertainty zone and get the damn fighter. It would seem that getting pinpoint locks is extremely difficult against starfighters, and in some inferior suites, is totally impossible.

If I do have a positive lock (I know precisely where it is and a shot would bag it for sure now,) then I can choose to use the tractor beam in CONJUNCTION with a turbolaser. But a much better choice would be to simply USE THE TURBOLASER. And in fact some hotshot gunner would have used the solution to do precisely that. No one would ever know it was egligible for tractoring because it is space fragments by the time the tractor beam crews got the beam aligned and began to focus it in.

Only IF you want capture and not kill is a tractor beam really worth the effort. Even then, you might seriously want to consider disabling it with ion and low power TL fire so it becomes less of a threat. A cornered tiger can get desperate.

I think it is the difficulty in getting a positive lock, in COMBINATION with this factor that keeps the number of fighter tractorings down to a level where you would never know it.

If the only problem is with the tractor-beams themselves, the RA would be just as dead. Instead of deadly accurate tractor beams holding onto X-Wings for execution, it would be deadly accurate turbolasers directly blowing X-Wings to hell. It is clearly a general problem.

As for larger ships, well, we agreed that for larger ships, we can tractor them IF we want to, right? It is just the fighters and little ships that are potential problems.

LMSx wrote:Wouldn't all the SC do is make a small hole through the Star Destroyer? Given the size of a Star Destroyer and the size of the Sun Crusher in comparison, it would seem as if the probability of the SC hitting anything vital would be pretty small.

Try a centerline penetration, in at the bow, out at middle nozzle section. Assess damage. Or perhaps a penetration from the top of bridge tower, through the engine sections...

what's the heat dissipation on the Sun Crusher look like anyway?
How abou the old rapidly reversing polarity tractor/presser beam to overcome the inertial compensator.
How about the Vong just self destruct all of their Dovin basals to form a black hole that completely removes both the Sun Crusher and the Yuuzhan Vong from existence.

First let me respond to the people who still have not noticed there are gaps in the hull for the Lasers and such and through those gaps run wirining and power conducits for the guns which happen to conect into the ship with much like when an Lightning Bolt strikes and powerline and fries your computer, An Ion Cannon hit does the same thing that simple,
No Jedi/Black Holes/Giant Fluffy Death Bunnies, Just an Ion Cannon that simple

Which is why Talen's

give me a jedi and an a wing and I can do it. force the controls to come near you and kill the pilot with the force. if you want to destroy it, go aboard and tell it to fly into a blackhole

One word Ysalamiri

And as Kazuaki Shimazaki pointed out on how a SC can damadage a Ship

Try a centerline penetration, in at the bow, out at middle nozzle section. Assess damage. Or perhaps a penetration from the top of bridge tower, through the engine sections...

Also don't forget the Power Cells and Simply Running into the Reactor as the SC is speced to take that explosion while the Ship itself is not

Acutaly the best route because it allows for maxium damage is a from the top dive down almost to the engerning section cut through the left side cooling facilites then down come out the back wall of the Hanger fly through said hanger then dive into the other wall which happens to be where the TIE Bombers are normaly keep then a spiral up and out lets you nail quite a few crucial systesm besides the Tentary damage you did.


Now onto what Kazuaki said

No one said at a slant. I said while you are escaping, you can continue to sideslip if you are not planning for a nav solution. A bunch of brief sideslips should be possible. Right as you pull the infamous level, you stop and you pull at the same time.

Notice the Smilies I was kidding about the first part, I'm not saying you have to stay level for five mintues or anything just the two to eight seconds befor the jump itself(Depending on ship size)

Actually, his sublight engines still worked just fine, so his nozzles and bell took it just fine.

The engine is not designed for that kind of impulse, backwards OR forwards.

Thus my saying its a fine demostration of how well SW materials and Enginees are made and my Comprasion, Prehaps USAF Ace could come in here and describe what happens when in mid flight an F-16 Reverses the In/out of his Engine

Actually, the rapid maneuvering can degrade a lock before it is formed, by IMHO IF the lock went on somehow (accident, skilled operator, whatever), then it takes desperate measures above the normal delta-v ranges.

Not nessary but then most ships are not normaly able to throw all of thier foward thrust into backwards thrust in under two seconds what Luke did, The fact that it happend to be higher than normal just increase his chances of staying free
He speficly says that it will take a large change in thrust to break free, impling its either way

It is very logical for the tractor system to at least have SOME rudimental facility for telling what you are locked to. Say at least a tension meter if nothing else. Or a range to target meter. If the target is suddenly much more cooperative (because they're protorps trying to come over anyway,) it is quite inconceivable that there would be NO change in any of the readouts. Or do you think they won't be able to tell if an object is tugging so hard back that the projector is about to be ripped out?

It is Logical to have some Facility but remeber he refered to the Lock seem to come back at once? Prehaps it is aviaible but Piet there was not looking at it but somthing else(A further screw-up if you will)

I doubt it. Luke told R2 not to even TRY plotting. I don't think he suddenly changed his mind.

Luke has a history of being an uppity Arrgoent Jedi prehaps this was just one case of *The force will save me! like when certian memebers of a religion handel a snake or flip that and remeber he did say it was supposed to only be a short jump to get them clear not to a desitantion(IMO probaly a shorter jump then he intended)

There you go. If there are precisely twenty lifeforms aboard, then it is almost certainly a all-cargo ship and can be destroyed.

Who says Luke Boy is not flying it? After all they where facing a Shortage of Pilots after this and whos keeping an eye on the Cargo?

I wouldn't know precisely why, but from what little I know, at least in the Imperial Remnant Navy, to have the tractor beams activated requires an extra order. Whether it is because of a unfavorable utility ratio (effectiveness versus energy draw) or some other factor is unknown.
If I don't have a positive lock, then clearly the tractor is useless.

And thus the point I've been driving home from the begining and finaly you've accepted that its very hard to Tractor Fight Sized Ships thank you and good-night

Oh and as Yoshi already pointed out Tractors are much harder to use on a SC than a simple Ion cannon which will do the job just as well and MUCH easier

The only idea we are really contesting is whether a tractor beam is 1) marginally effective or 2) totally, 100% useless against a maneuvering fighter. If you had been reading my posts from Day 1, you'll notice I always would be happy to admit that the Chimaera's lock was a lucky one.

He throws full power to the engine, and that is supposed to produce a certain delta-v, and it doesn't work. He thinks the problem is that he needs a (much) bigger delta-v. So he tries his trick. I would say it is more a magnitude difference than just whether it went back or forth.

Yes, I did remember. The computer reacquired on the protorps (it was probably set to designate the closest target as priority 1 - could have a better AI algorithm here.) He probably saw the word LOCK and assumed, rather than checked, that it was the same lock.

Both jumps were supposed to just get them outta there. He probably planned about say, probably ten light years max.

The cargo on a cargo ship can be secured with binders or automated equipment. The chances of Luke being in a cargo ship, rather than in a X-Wing or something else, is miniscule. He has very little (at best) experience in flying large ships. If he goes onto a cargo ship, he'll be little more than a doorstop.

Yep, an ion cannon is a better idea. However, I was not really carijng about how to kill a Sun Crusher (despite the thread name.) The only problem with this is that one would have thought Daala would have tried it. Correct me if my memory is poor, but the ISDs did shoot at the Sun Crusher in Dark Apprentice and even hit it. At least some of them would be ion bolts...but still, I could have been remembering TIE Fighters.

Keep in mind the Ion cannon causes secondary explosions and the only other thing that could exploded on the Sun-Crusher was

Those Resonance Torps

The Sun-Crusher is useless to her if the Torpsa are gone prehaps why she held off on using the Ion Cannon on it

Besides we know the Ion Cannons will work simple because of the EXTRENAL Defense Lasers mounted on the Sun-Crusher but then agian why it they did not do this to begin with

KJA is an idiot pure and simple

Mr Bean wrote:Yes it is acutaly becuase a Fighter Tractor is ment to hold small cooperation objects in place not fast uncorapative ones, Witness how the Blockade Runner was escaping in AHN(It was outrunning the ISD before the core was shut-down that and it had TWO Cap-ship Tractors in range and orination to be able to easly target it(To say nothing of the ones along the centerline possibly there, I know there are 10 Tractors but I've only been able to place 4 of them)
Second it has to be Cap ship Tractor because a Fighter sized one just means the SC throws itself at the emiter and makes a nice Hole in it

Bean, as I said before (and incedently was correct ), tractors come in all shapes and sizes. To assume that there is just two kinds of tractors, a cap ship class to capture, obviously cap ships, and a fighter class, to guide cooperariting fighters is wrong. There are no doubt varying sizes and yields of diffrent tractors, and a class for say, capturing frieghters (about SC size) that would do quite nicley. Of course, heaven forbid I say that! No canon evidence! I'm only using common sense! How horrible!

And secondly, I thought we already got out of the way that a tractor captures and holds in place its target!

Mr Bean wrote:nd these Lotsa Ships come from where(I mean in the sense where are they going to pop up and just happen to surround the SC)? And are you forgting the second half of the Equation. The Reasonance Torps the SC carres are VERY good Cap-Ship Killers(Besides the burrowing through the Hull thing) as they impart DIRECT HEAT(Millions of Degrees of it, also there seems to be a chain reaction of some sort similar to the Doctor Device in Enders game but its very limited)

Well, actually Bean, if you read the the first post on thsi thread, you'll remember I didn't specify any forces to capture the SC, just how to do it. And IIRC, an SD has 10 tractors, so if we assume someones got 10 of em, well 10 times 10, and we get 100 tractor beams flying around. They probably won't all be able to come to bear on the SC, but they'll still be a good number.

Mr Bean wrote: The fact remains the SC can kill any Cap Ship VERY Quickly by Either Torping it or smashing a trail of descrution through the Hull and maybe killing the Cooling Section of the Main Reactor to hmm? After all the SC can withstand it

With its whole limited supply of torpedoes you mean? It can surely kill cap ships, I'm not disputing that, but with a mere 11 torps, it's going to find itself defensless soon, no?

And again you even conceded to the point that a tractor holds its target in place, so how is it gonna rush on over an dsmash through the ship?

Mr Bean wrote: Second every ship you throw at it and the SC destroyes is yet more Debries in the battle field and by your own admission thats an even WORSE situation for the Tractor beams(It would get more crowed than the Hoth Astroid belt reaaaal quick)

The whole 11 ships that you can throw at it before they are destroyed? I concur they would create a desris field, but after seeing ISDs explode so violently in ROTJ, I doubt they would be in avery localized area, blasted far, far away, to be more precise. Any impeding debris could be knocked out by TL fire easily, and don't gimme any "more crowded then Hoth field" bull, 11 ISD sized craft spewing debris that violently would certaintly be nearly as much as a nuisance as the Hoth filed.

Also, capturing it in a tractor with its torp laucher away from the craft may even nullify its cap ship killing ability. I don't know if the SCs toprs (or even protorps in general) would be able to track something like that. I suppose its possible, just a thought.

Mr Bean wrote: Your missing the point of a Tractor, Sure its hard to hit Defenders with HTL but it can happen(Rarley) but a Tractor by its very Nature is diffrent, It must not only hit its target not once, not twice but a few hundred times eac second for it to stop/draw/push a Ship away

This is not Hit
TADA its CAUGHT!
It must be hit and Held
Somthing a Manvoring Fighter can easly prevent

So your saying because the SC can manuever, when its hit with a tractor it can escape? Jeez, its too nad Han didn't think of that! Please, when a SC is hit with a tractor that must retain it "few hundred of times each second" its going to somehow manuever out between the ocislating field or something? I'm not getting your point here. Unless its to say that they won't hit the SC because its manuevering, which isn't in dispute here.

Mr Bean wrote: Killing the Sun-Crusher is Easy if you know what your doing but as I've said these methods WONT work
Extreme Heat or Pressure do not affect the Ship, Niether does HTL, The DS could kill it but then it would be hard to hit and it faces the same problem of the Sun-Crusher getting in close and playing Bull-dozer

Ok, so extreme heat and pressure, HTLs, and DSs won't kill it. Thats great. Too bad it has nothing to do with tractor beams. And no it wouldn't be easy. But it could be done, and its not like its 12,361,23,000 to 1 here. You just seem to have some weird condition that makes you fail to accept that a couple ships could capture a SC! Tractors can do, they have the power.

Bean, as I said before (and incedently was correct ), tractors come in all shapes and sizes. To assume that there is just two kinds of tractors, a cap ship class to capture, obviously cap ships, and a fighter class, to guide cooperariting fighters is wrong. There are no doubt varying sizes and yields of diffrent tractors, and a class for say, capturing frieghters (about SC size) that would do quite nicley. Of course, heaven forbid I say that! No canon evidence! I'm only using common sense! How horrible!

How Horrible No Evidance?
Guess what, This is a debate, No Evidance=No Hope And furthermore I don't care if thier was a magic tool-pick sized Fly catching Tractor the main point is even if your Tractor can flip around sixty times a second target 360 Degrees of Space and move faster than the speed of light, If it can't target anything does it matter?

AND SECONDLY IF FAR LARGE AND MORE POWERFUL CAP-SHIP TRACTORS CAN BE GOTTEN AWAY FROM HOW DO YOU EXPECT A SMALLER VERISON TO HELP AT ALL?
Power wise of course I'm refering to, When Luke was caught he managed to get away with an old smuggling trick and stated that large changes in Veolicty where all you needed to evade them, how would a smaller less powerful verison help?

With its whole limited supply of torpedoes you mean? It can surely kill cap ships, I'm not disputing that, but with a mere 11 torps, it's going to find itself defensless soon, no?

And again you even conceded to the point that a tractor holds its target in place, so how is it gonna rush on over an dsmash through the ship?

I belive its Tweleve Torps and Each is capbable of Melting 2/3 of an SSD based on a quick calcutation I ran on how much 1% of the DS is when the state in Campionins how much is burned away, Second how is it going to get a lock to begin with, As Kazuaki was kind enough to concede SW Weaponry in General is terrible aginst Fighter Sized Craft and Tractors even more so

I ask you please to disprove the mear existance of Squadrens such as the 181st and Rouge Squadren with long docmented Histroys of Victorys VS Capships and never have they been grabed by Tractors, Also Wraith Squadren FAR from an Enlite Unit(In space away) went up aginst Two SSDs, Four ISDs and that Corrilean Corvette which had a Cap-ship Tractor Aboard and not once have any of thier squadren be Tractored

The fact is YOU HAVE NO PROOF
Kazuaki relized this and this is why I could take this position as I've already pointed out Ion Cannons spells the SC doom way faster that your idiot tractoring idea when Tractors have a LONG History of being AS USEFUL AS A DS SIZED SUPERLASER AGINST A TIE FIGHTER, Sure its powerful but I'd sure as heck like to see you hit somthing with it



And finaly when you put your foot in your mouth and end it

So your saying because the SC can manuever, when its hit with a tractor it can escape? Jeez, its too nad Han didn't think of that! Please, when a SC is hit with a tractor that must retain it "few hundred of times each second" its going to somehow manuever out between the ocislating field or something? I'm not getting your point here. Unless its to say that they won't hit the SC because its manuevering, which isn't in dispute here.

Gnome gnome gnome, Thats EXACTLY was in dispute here, but since you say its not in dispute thats a defacto Concession meaning
Its over


Concession Accepted

[/quote]

Heres a hint Dive Towards the Tractor Beam, Whats on the other end? Why a ship you can dive through and destroy!

Its very hard to do what you mention by its very Nature the SC is hard to get a lock on(ITS STEALTHY!) and so far no SW tractors show an abilites to HOLD somthing
(And BTW if they could sorry to say why the heck don't they use any of those ten tractors on an ISD to hold Fighters still so the HTL can hit them with ease huh? Its not like the Tractors are doing anything else!)

.[/quote]

Wondering where I was eh? Trying to wade through the bullshit that consists of your posts. This was what I was looking for right here. For some reason, you keep changing the parameters of your argument. Everytime someone cites an example, you go 'a fighter manuvering'. or 'it'll just rip out of the lock'. So let's start again shall we? I'll go slow. First, Stealthy? Where did you get this from? Carida attempted a lock. Yet, with JEDI ENHANCED abilities, Kyp kept oscilating his orbit so they could never get a positive lock. Somewhere you made up that it was a slow stading still orbit, and that he wasn't doing much. Hmm. so if he used JEDI ENHANCED abilities, then that means a normal person couldn't have even manuvered the Sun Crusher at all? Even though astronaughts can do it with the Space Shuttle. They have to get back to Earth somehow. Second, your post says that so far NO Star Wars tractors have managed to HOLD anything. Hmm, Apparently you were out front getting a drink when ANH started. Maybe on a bathroom break from too much of said drink when the Falcon arrived at the remains of Alderaan? Did you get upset because there were no pretty pictures when Thrawn's ISD HELD Luke's X-Wing? How about a little further from the Carida incident when the Falcon CAUGHT the Sun Crusher in the tractor. By the way, it didn't just HOLD the Sun Crusher, the speed at which Kyp came in at was enough to pull the Falcon around. In fact, at some point you said he was close to the Falcon and sitting relatively still. Yet know mention of where you got the from. I doubt it was from the same book that I was reading however. Also, you said the Sun Crusher was traveling in a straight line? Where did you come up with that one? Oh, that's right, you said the SC was doing a strafing run and you do strafing runs in straight lines. Maybe a closet Trekkie such as yourself does. I would assume here though that it would be strafing runs on the video games. I know I haven't flown in real life, but in the video games I'm all over the place on a strafing run. Now, you see, my points were about a tractor being able to HOLD anything, especially the Sun Crusher which you are saying can't be done here. Then you say, well, it can't grab it if it's manuvering. The only tractors we've got knowledge on grabing a manuvering fighter are capital class, and we know that the turbolasers a too slow to track them. Could be the same reason here. Yet the ones on the Falcon caught the Sun Crusher.

Sigh another vist from DG who can't be bothered to stay civil right or wrong ok lets see what he has tossed up this time

For some reason, you keep changing the parameters of your argument. Everytime someone cites an example, you go 'a fighter manuvering'. or 'it'll just rip out of the lock

Because it can do either, Its sure as hell is possible to Avoid the Lock by Manvoring OR Break the Lock if you where caught because you where not manvoring or the other guy got lucky
A tractor is not a TL, If I shoot some with one generaly they die and they Can't Break the Death after the fact however with a Tractor you always have that opition from large changes in Velocity to destroying the Emiter there are quite a few ways to break a Lock, And avoid a lock altogther, You know what Taticits are DG?

First, Stealthy? Where did you get this from?

Page 279 Jedi Search
The Craft is highly maneuverable and small enough not to be noticed on a systemwide scan

Carida attempted a lock. Yet, with JEDI ENHANCED abilities, Kyp kept oscilating his orbit so they could never get a positive lock.

Page 2&3 Champions of the Force
The Caridan defense Network spotted the Sun Crusher as Kyp entered orbit
Two things he entered Orbit, Orbit is a term when applied to Ships as a stable strait lined path around the planet at a set altiuded and Speed
Two they did not see him untill he was right over the planet, Considering this is the seat of Training for the Imperal Army its probably safe to say they have a good Sensor Grid and the fact they did not see him before he got into orbit speaks well for the steath of the Sun-Crusher considering How far out the Death Fleet was tracted by the Rebels on Hoth and how far out the people on Hogonor(Home of the Norghi contaning just one spaceport) managed to track Luke when he went there in his X-Wing


His Alarm consoles flashed as the Caridans attempted to lock onto the Sun Crusher with a tractor beam, but Kyp worked the controls with Jedi-Enhanced speed his orbit at random so they could never get a postive lock
He reacted from being at a standstill moving with Jedi speed, The at random part lets us know he was not using Jedi skills there but just flying at random as KJA and most writers always indicate if the Jedi at the time is doing Jedi acts
And besides since the Jedi part is precog how could it be random if he was using his Jedi powers?

then that means a normal person couldn't have even manuvered the Sun Crusher at all? Even though astronaughts can do it with the Space Shuttle. They have to get back to Earth somehow.

Gee I don't know maybe all the astronaughts are realy Jedi and the whole things a cover up when they go vist the ISD in Orbit behind da moon! /Sarcasim off, Ok what are you trying to prove here besides the fact you can take awhile to get to the point

Second, your post says that so far NO Star Wars tractors have managed to HOLD anything

I don't apprecate it when people lie about what I write, My exact words are

A Manvoring Fighter can not be grabed by a Tractor, Untill you have evidance of this EVER occuring

That was quite a few posts back and I changed it to have about as much chance as HTL not using Flack Bursts, I changed that a few posts after that a quite a few before your latest one

By the way, it didn't just HOLD the Sun Crusher, the speed at which Kyp came in at was enough to pull the Falcon around.

Two seperate facts here, It did not hold the Sun Crusher rather it slowed it down and in the proccess got far enough away the Falcon had to flip or loose the lock(Only one Tractor on board after all)

Also, you said the Sun Crusher was traveling in a straight line? Where did you come up with that one? Oh, that's right, you said the SC was doing a strafing run and you do strafing runs in straight lines. Maybe a closet Trekkie such as yourself does. I would assume here though that it would be strafing runs on the video games. I know I haven't flown in real life, but in the video games I'm all over the place on a strafing run.

Ahh so we take your personal experance in video Games as Cannon fact now do we?

If you want to use video games tell me what happens when you hit the Strife key in most FPS
Why you move in a straite line left or right WHO KNEW?
The Dictionary.com Definiton is enough to drive the point home
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=strafe
attack (ground troops, for example) with a machine gun or cannon from a low-flying aircraft.

n.
An attack of machine-gun or cannon fire from a low-flying aircraft.

Quick Flying Lesson
Know what happens when you make Radical Movements in an Aircraft close to the ground?
Normaly you flip over and die but even better, If your attacking Ground Troops it does not matter if you have a 1000000000 BPM Machine Gun your not going to hit anything

Oh and for Quick Reference I HAVE flow in real life and if you go up to any USAF Pilot and say a strifing run is anything but a strait line at a target to maxiumise damage and accurasy he's(And now she) is likley to beat you to a pulp for your idiotic statment or just laugh in your face depending on how well they know you

Now, you see, my points were about a tractor being able to HOLD anything, especially the Sun Crusher which you are saying can't be done here

And finaly last part I have to respond to, Guess what thats not what I'm saying, If your going to say somthing please bother to read the posts first before coming in with a load of stuff thats already been said.

Have a nice day

Mr Bean wrote: How Horrible No Evidance?
Guess what, This is a debate, No Evidance=No Hope And furthermore I don't care if thier was a magic tool-pick sized Fly catching Tractor the main point is even if your Tractor can flip around sixty times a second target 360 Degrees of Space and move faster than the speed of light, If it can't target anything does it matter?

Oh no Bean, MY MISTAKE! Since we haven't seen Luke Skywalker die, MY GOD IT MUST BE IMPOSSIBLE! Or maybe it is, and only some of us have decided to turn on our brains! Lets examine: There are big and small tractors=canon. There isn't any evidence of something in between, no. But as seen before when we look at diagrams of ships, they don't go and point out the various sizes and shapes of the tractros on said craft, even though there are diffrent kinds, which we know is CANON.

Why they also have big and medium and small ships, big medium and small size guns, big medium and small sized tools, species, planets, food, and everything else. But big medium andsmall sized tractors, HEAVENS NO! I WOULDN'T DARE ADMIT THE OBVIOUS! ESPECIALLY SINCE THEN I WOULD LOSE PART OF A DEBATE! IMPOSSIBLE!

Lets get real Bean, please.

Mr Bean wrote: AND SECONDLY IF FAR LARGE AND MORE POWERFUL CAP-SHIP TRACTORS CAN BE GOTTEN AWAY FROM HOW DO YOU EXPECT A SMALLER VERISON TO HELP AT ALL?

Big=slow and bulky. Fact. Small=Quick and light. Fact. Big is good for big things, ie- Big tractor to big ship. Small is good for small things, ie-small tractor to small ship.

Mr Bean wrote: Second how is it going to get a lock to begin with, As Kazuaki was kind enough to concede SW Weaponry in General is terrible aginst Fighter Sized Craft and Tractors even more so

Bean, I've said it again and again, pinpoint accuracy is not necessary if you can flood a certain area with a whole lotta tractors. Really.

Mr Bean wrote: I ask you please to disprove the mear existance of Squadrens such as the 181st and Rouge Squadren with long docmented Histroys of Victorys VS Capships and never have they been grabed by Tractors, Also Wraith Squadren FAR from an Enlite Unit(In space away) went up aginst Two SSDs, Four ISDs and that Corrilean Corvette which had a Cap-ship Tractor Aboard and not once have any of thier squadren be Tractored

Well Rouges and 181st are elite units, I mean we've got Wedge, and Fel. They aint ever gonna die, not when character shields operating at full. And if I'm not mistaken the Wraiths were invented in Stackpoles X-Wing books. We've seen them kill things that would be impossible to do in the movies, and seen as such during the Yavin run and the Battle of Endor. It is based on a video game after all, which glorifies X-Wings.

Mr Bean wrote: Gnome gnome gnome, Thats EXACTLY was in dispute here, but since you say its not in dispute thats a defacto Concession meaning
Its over


Concession Accepted

*slaps face* WHY MUST I EXPLAIN EVERYTHING TO YOU! If you'll look at the paragraph, you stated that the SC could escape if caught in a tractor beam. I said it couldn't, and then said that its ability to dodge wasn't in dispute in a scenario where it was already caught. ARGH! YOU ARE SO VERY CONFUSING BEAN! READ A LITTLE MORE CAREFULLY IN THE FUTURE!

*sigh* and theres my exercies for thr week. [/i]

Sigh sorry to be like this

Oh no Bean, MY MISTAKE! Since we haven't seen Luke Skywalker die, MY GOD IT MUST BE IMPOSSIBLE! Or maybe it is, and only some of us have decided to turn on our brains! Lets examine: There are big and small tractors=canon. There isn't any evidence of something in between, no. But as seen before when we look at diagrams of ships, they don't go and point out the various sizes and shapes of the tractros on said craft, even though there are diffrent kinds, which we know is CANON.

Bullshit Pure and Simple Gnome now listen close, Theres a diffrence here you fail to accknolwedge and that dumb ass comprasion YES ITS IDIOTIC only makes you look like an ass not prove your point(Which as I'm about to go into you CAN'T)

SW Cannon Fact sheet Generaly Inculded everything useful and pointed, For example the three types of Turbolasers, The Inculded Ion Cannons the Number of Captians, where things are exctra
They DONT leave out Magic Fighter Graping Tractors you've invented, In fact NO WHERE IN THE ENTIRE EU, thats OVER 50,000 PAGES DOES IT MENTION ANYTHING SIMILAR, It does not matter if it logical or not, If they never built it who cares if its a good idea, You can't swing by Kuat after dinner and say gee would not some Fighter Graping Tractors be a good idea?
Maybe just maybe because its not mentioned anywhere THEY NEVER BUILT THEM?
Of course you'll never acknowledge that because its an admission you have no proof and because you have no proof you have no point but you would never admit that because you don't know when to back down, Right now its PURE Speculation. Call it logic, sure its based on that but its not ITS SPECULATION

And as you go on to say for yourself

Why they also have big and medium and small ships, big medium and small size guns, big medium and small sized tools, species, planets, food, and everything else. But big medium and small sized tractors, HEAVENS NO! I WOULDN'T DARE ADMIT THE OBVIOUS! ESPECIALLY SINCE THEN I WOULD LOSE PART OF A DEBATE! IMPOSSIBLE!

SPECULATION
SPECULATION
Say it with me, I don't care if you feed the the numbers into a planet sized computer and it says its 99.99999% Likley, Untill you have Proof, ITS SPECULATION

Big=slow and bulky. Fact. Small=Quick and light. Fact. Big is good for big things, ie- Big tractor to big ship. Small is good for small things, ie-small tractor to small ship.

Bad Logic, Big does not always equal Slow and Bulky and Small does not equal quick and light the fact remains if a BIG tractor can be beaten by a Fighter WTF use is a medium one?

Bean, I've said it again and again, pinpoint accuracy is not necessary if you can flood a certain area with a whole lotta tractors. Really.

And if you gave a hundred monkeys with Typewriters an infinte amount of time they will write all the works of Shakesphere
This is agian bad logic that well if you just have enough you could, Well guess what unlike the monkey example theres a problem.
I have not ripped apart hoping you would stop before now but still you presist.
TRACTORS INTEFER WITH EACH OTHER
Anything that exerts an push or pull on somthing will do the same if another push or pull is exterted on the same object

Every Tractor beam you throw in an area will intefer with the first one untill you have a hopeless situation where each preciding Tractor Interfers with the next untill nothing is done
Imagin this picture, A Thousand people standing around an circule where somone walk at random in the middle, Each rope has a increasing chance of interfering with each other untill you reach a point where there is no chance of getting the person in the middle as the rope mearly collides with another before it can reach him and is rendered unaffected. And whats worse the Rope throwers must make five succesful tosses onto the subject saying throwing at a rate of Two a sec, It takes a second for the person to throw off a rope so they must make bascily ten succesful throws(Note: The he can throw one off comes from the fact the ship is manvoring and each changes alters the targe profile) So the Thrower must make ten succesful throws in a row
In an infinte amount of time this is fine and possible but you don't have an infinte amount of time do you?
And you like to aurge with that, I suggest you form a group to overthrow the basic rules of Physics,
Good luck....

Well Rouges and 181st are elite units, I mean we've got Wedge, and Fel. They aint ever gonna die, not when character shields operating at full. And if I'm not mistaken the Wraiths were invented in Stackpoles X-Wing books. We've seen them kill things that would be impossible to do in the movies, and seen as such during the Yavin run and the Battle of Endor. It is based on a video game after all, which glorifies X-Wings.

The Wraiths were to quote Stackpole, a Medocre group, if they got an TIE per Fight that was pretty good, and they have a pretty high Attrition rate and nearly all died a time or two,
They never did anything marciulous, They Fought a UNSHIELDED Star Destroyer for five mintues without any Fighter Cover, Then for ten more with but Rouge and The A-Wing Squadren where there and had already killed many. They killed that ISD by Luck, remeber one of the TIEs made it into the section where the Power Cells where kept and systmaticly destroyed them, In open space this leaves a Derilict Ship, in a moon's Gravity however it fell and died. They where shot down quite a bit, They helped take on the Razors Kiss along with Cap ships and a ton of other Fighters, it was agian unshielded, They did nothing which could be called extrodinary in space combat yet never died to Tractors, The Fight aginst the Unshielded ISD being the PERFECT time to use Tractors as it had no shields was facing twelve fighters(Four in Ties 8 in X-wings) with NO Fighter Cover, I don't see any fathmoable reason not to use Tractors aginst them if they could be used in the way they descirbed yet suprised suprised they did not(To date they lost 6 Memebers of the Squadren in three books one of which was quite devopled and they nearly lost seven once)(Last mintue screw up by a Stormy saved them)
Yet there they where alive and kicking through-out


Now prehaps you learned your lesson or are you hungrey for more Gnome? I'm barley warmed up

And I've already got quite a few pages to show you if you want to Aurge to me about Physics and I think Wong would probably get in on that when he heres somone on the board is aurging aginst the Laws of Physics.....

Tis your hand that digs the grave.