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Yeah, you can dish out but not take it, I got that.

Any interest in getting back on topic instead of musing about your bruised ego?

Bruised ego? Wow, it certainly takes an inflated one to think everything is about ego. No, I'm just amazed at how combative you are at all times, even when it isn't appropriate. But yes, I was about to suggest the same thing. Hell, the mods can even split this to HoS if they want.

Formless wrote:Bruised ego? Wow, it certainly takes an inflated one to think everything is about ego. No, I'm just amazed at how combative you are at all times, even when it isn't appropriate.

It amazes me how big a crybaby you are. Mockery of stupid people, OK when it comes to you harassing other posters, not OK when you're doing something stupid, like committing absolute reading-comprehension fail and get verbal abuse in return. You really are a loser. I'm the combative one, huh? Who was it who first flung shit on this thread and completely unjustified to boot? You. Man the fuck up and take some responsibility!

Also, I call Vendetta. You've freely admitted to it. I will remember this the next time you decide to go apeshit on me. Or maybe I'll tell the mods right now because I have better things to do then concern myself with a loser who harasses me because he hates my guts.

But yes, I was about to suggest the same thing. Hell, the mods can even split this to HoS if they want.

...but you absolutely had to get one last passive-aggressive jab in, huh? Really big of you /sarcasm.

@Formless
Take a step back. I think you are taking other threads with you into this one.
It was you who made the mistake, it was you who started with the flaming. You were the one doing exactly what you then tried to accuse Metahive of, and Metahive's post was rather mild as a response to such as far as this forum goes.
And since when were we not allowed to use big red letters?

Metahive wrote:I actually don't care for "popcorn movies", AKA cinematic junkfood that nourishes you superficially, leaves a vague feeling of emptiness and is forgotten two days later. I think SW, even the PT is better than that. nuTrek meanwhile...

If so I think that you and I use different definitions of a popcorn movie. Hmm, maybe that is something local - *goes checking for definition* - that was interesting. There seems to be two different uses of that phrase.
A motion picture without serious dramatic content, a weighty message, or intellectual depth, which serves simply as enjoyable entertainment
and
A movie is garanteed to be, "eh". One that is sure not to win any awards. One only goes to see it as a excuse to eat popcorn and other junk food with friends. Sometimes with the intention of insulting it afterword.
Those are pretty different. I was using it in the "casual entertainment" type of definition. While you were using it in the "excuse to eat popcorn and hang" type of definition.
Let me rephrase then, Star Wars was definately going for a movie-matiné, go along for the ride, fairytale type of deal.

Metahive wrote:In SW, especially in ESB the heroes are in actual danger, they aren't invincible Mary Sues, with or without the Stormtrooper's shitty aim.

Agreed.

Metahive wrote:

Spoonist wrote:Adding a private ryan level would remove the princess, the pirate, the wizard and the knight feeling. Something which is copied and cloned in lots of later successful films for new generations.

You can have wizards, knights and princesses and grim and gritty. I don't see why one would exclude the other. Grim and gritty would actually fit SW quite well since, in the very first movie, it contains an act of planetary genocide that puts the Holocaust to shame as well as burnt out corpses of people we at least came to know semi-well. Sorry, you can't have such elements and then tell me to my face that SW is going for camp.

You are talking grimdark, I am talking realism. So I'm guessing we are using different defintions of campy as well.
As I said my favorite SW movie is ESB specifically because its dirty and somewhat grim.
But you can't have the fairytale and realism at the same time without a serialization.

Spoonist wrote:Let me rephrase then, Star Wars was definately going for a movie-matiné, go along for the ride, fairytale type of deal.

OK.

You are talking grimdark, I am talking realism. So I'm guessing we are using different defintions of campy as well.
As I said my favorite SW movie is ESB specifically because its dirty and somewhat grim.
But you can't have the fairytale and realism at the same time without a serialization.

IMHO realism wouldn't necessarily require well-known people meeting tragic ends, something small as "people react to things in a realistic way" would suffice. Let me explain, in ANH Luke barely reacts towards his foster parents getting cruelly murdered. Imagine the people you grew up with ending this way, would you react like Luke? I know that if I came upon the burnt corpses of my parents I'd probably have a mental breakdown. Imagine seeing the city you grew up in getting hit by a nuke, killing nearly all the people you knew, would you react like Leia? I'd propbably suffer from months of deep depression if I had to witness that. In the SW universe it seems the only stage of grief is acceptance. This is of course very convenient for the mental health of the people there but at the same time makes them look like callous robots and, at least for me, reduced SOD.
I think SW would have benefited if it had included just these little bits of realism. Luke seeing the murder of his foster parents? He reacts with burning anger and hatred, which would also serve as a possible source of Dark Side corruption. Leia sees her planet explode? She becomes withdrawn and has to be coaxed out of her shell by someone like Han. Boom, instant hooks for character development.

What do you think?

IMO it would be hard to include those things without hurting the pacing of the movie. Luke losing his family is the event that starts him on the journey to becoming a hero, but it isn't really what the movie is about. So do you really want to slow down the important events to spend time on the details of dealing with his grief? Or is it better to just have most of it happen off-camera and keep the plot moving, assuming a combination of still being in shock and not having time to think about the loss and burying his feelings to get through the battle?

Also, there's an element of "show, don't tell" here. We see Luke drive up and call out to them, then we see the burned corpses from his perspective with the music representing Luke's stunned reaction. We obviously know he's in shock and feeling the loss, and then it's clear in his body language and tone of voice in the next scene. Would this really be improved by showing an explicit "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" scream, or would it just be a clumsy attempt at adding "drama"?

IPeregrine wrote:IMO it would be hard to include those things without hurting the pacing of the movie. Luke losing his family is the event that starts him on the journey to becoming a hero, but it isn't really what the movie is about. So do you really want to slow down the important events to spend time on the details of dealing with his grief? Or is it better to just have most of it happen off-camera and keep the plot moving, assuming a combination of still being in shock and not having time to think about the loss and burying his feelings to get through the battle?

Have you not read the part where I said that Luke's reaction should be one of anger and hatred? I don't see how the pacing of the movie would have suffered if Luke had been in a seething mood whenever he got to fight Imperials. Luke's already fairly bland in ANH, why not give him opportunities to reveal some character?

EDIT: And as I said, it would make the temptation to go Dark Side for him way more credible.

Also, there's an element of "show, don't tell" here. We see Luke drive up and call out to them, then we see the burned corpses from his perspective with the music representing Luke's stunned reaction. We obviously know he's in shock and feeling the loss, and then it's clear in his body language and tone of voice in the next scene. Would this really be improved by showing an explicit "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" scream, or would it just be a clumsy attempt at adding "drama"?

If you fuck up the scene of course it becomes clumsy. That's however not a problem with my proposal but a problem with botched effort on part of the direction and the actors. Yeah, it would be harder for the crew to get right, but if they got it right, I think this could have potentially reaped them an Oscar for acting.

I personally don't see Luke being in shock at the loss in the scene. He's actually more depressed when Obi Wan dies.

Spoonist wrote:@Formless
Take a step back. I think you are taking other threads with you into this one.
It was you who made the mistake, it was you who started with the flaming. You were the one doing exactly what you then tried to accuse Metahive of, and Metahive's post was rather mild as a response to such as far as this forum goes.
And since when were we not allowed to use big red letters?

You are right that it has. That's why I agreed that it should stop. Now ask yourself this: why do you think it hasn't? It wasn't me that decided to continue posting this shit tangent. I was the one who suggested that it be split off to HoS for a reason, but I guess there is only one way to get that kind of crap done in that regard with a forum as dead as Pure Star Wars.

edit: Also, using gigantic red letters in general is something most people online find offensive moreso than cuss words because its a pain in the eyesockets. Much like using all caps. Meanwhile using red text on many forums is an exclusive right of moderators. Perhaps not technically here, in that its not exclusive, but they do use it.

Keep further discussion on topic. If you want to insult each other within the context of actual debate, that's allowed, you're both wandering off the point however. Knock it on the head the pair of you. Formless, there is no need to recommend what action to take. If we need advice on how to deal with moderation issues, we will solicit it. And yes, reports do get read promptly. I know this because there is no backlog of reports.

I got a PM about this but luckily NecronLord has already handled it with aplomb.

I know something that would make Star Wars 500% better, but you'll flame me for it.
Get rid of the force entirely.
Make Star Wars be about spaceships, strategy, tactics, personal and collective heroism on both sides, heavy and light machines of all kinds... Make it be about WAR, among the STARS, not about some hokey religion. Enough with the force wanking.
You have midichlorians? Take some fucking antibiotics and use a condom next time you shag a Wookie or other sub-human alien!

Also, restore the deleted scenes with Moff Jerjerrod. That man was bloody awesome, both the actor and the character.

Apollonius wrote:I know something that would make Star Wars 500% better, but you'll flame me for it.
Get rid of the force entirely.
Make Star Wars be about spaceships, strategy, tactics, personal and collective heroism on both sides, heavy and light machines of all kinds... Make it be about WAR, among the STARS, not about some hokey religion. Enough with the force wanking.
You have midichlorians? Take some fucking antibiotics and use a condom next time you shag a Wookie or other sub-human alien!

Also, restore the deleted scenes with Moff Jerjerrod. That man was bloody awesome, both the actor and the character.

How it would make it better? Isn't the story already about personal and collective heroism? There's a lot of strategy already there, although tactics seem somewhat lacking in the PT. And the entire thing IS about war among the stars: blockade of Naboo? The Clone Wars? The Galactic Civil War? Or did you miss the opening of the RotS or the battle of the second Death Star? The Force gives the story a more epic scope in that it has mythical elements and it gives the story of Star Wars its current focus and form. It wouldn't be that much of a Star Wars without it - one can make good SW stories without the Jedi, the Sith or the Force, but general audience might find them a bit odd after the previous movies.

Tiriol wrote:

Apollonius wrote:I know something that would make Star Wars 500% better, but you'll flame me for it.
Get rid of the force entirely.
Make Star Wars be about spaceships, strategy, tactics, personal and collective heroism on both sides, heavy and light machines of all kinds... Make it be about WAR, among the STARS, not about some hokey religion. Enough with the force wanking.
You have midichlorians? Take some fucking antibiotics and use a condom next time you shag a Wookie or other sub-human alien!

Also, restore the deleted scenes with Moff Jerjerrod. That man was bloody awesome, both the actor and the character.

How it would make it better? Isn't the story already about personal and collective heroism? There's a lot of strategy already there, although tactics seem somewhat lacking in the PT. And the entire thing IS about war among the stars: blockade of Naboo? The Clone Wars? The Galactic Civil War? Or did you miss the opening of the RotS or the battle of the second Death Star? The Force gives the story a more epic scope in that it has mythical elements and it gives the story of Star Wars its current focus and form. It wouldn't be that much of a Star Wars without it - one can make good SW stories without the Jedi, the Sith or the Force, but general audience might find them a bit odd after the previous movies.

Besides, in the original trilogy there is only Luke among the main characters who uses the Force. Vader and the Emperor are villains, Yoda and Ben are mentor figures (and both die, leaving Luke as the last Jedi). Leia is said to have the potential, but at the end of the trilogy, it remains that - a potential. The prequels of course have the Jedi front and center, but given that they follow the story of Anakin Skywalker and Ben Kenobi that's inevitable.

Apollonius wrote:I know something that would make Star Wars 500% better, but you'll flame me for it.
Get rid of the force entirely.
Make Star Wars be about spaceships, strategy, tactics, personal and collective heroism on both sides, heavy and light machines of all kinds... Make it be about WAR, among the STARS, not about some hokey religion. Enough with the force wanking.
You have midichlorians? Take some fucking antibiotics and use a condom next time you shag a Wookie or other sub-human alien!

I totally disagree. The Force and lightsaber are the most distinctive of Star Wars. If you remove the Force of Star Wars, then you would have a clone of Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, among others. The Force powers do much more interesting games like Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy and The Force Unleashed. What's more, if it were me, I would do that the power of the Force users in the movies were like in the comics, because I'm annoyed to see Jedi as weak.

Personally, I liked it better when the force was more subtle, like in the original trilogy. While Luke was set apart from the other characters, it was in a more spiritual/meditative way. The more overt presence of the force in the prequels kinda made it feel like the Jedi were more like superheroes who spent most of their time putzing around in their temple. I really would have liked to see them doing more actual diplomatic and mediation work.

If there's anything I'd like to see in Star Wars, it's some of the "lower deck" kind of stuff. I'd also like to see force users remain powerful, but be a lot more reserved with how and when they use their abilities. Obi Wan chose to trick the stormtroopers and sneak the droids into Mos Eisley.. if it were written now, would they have had him leap 50' into the air and come crashing down with his lightsaber twirling around, to defeat said troopers instead? I like the subtle deception and restraint better...

It would be silly to disconnect the Force from the story of Starwars, since some of the strongest themes of the movies are fate and destiny, striving to be the most you can be and live up to your potential, resisting the temptation to go the easy route. The Force represents that destiny and without it, you have a bunch of characters running around with no purpose. Sure sure, defeat the evil emperor, but you neuter the fall of the Black Knight theme, the personal motivation of Luke to redeem the Black Knight, you stretch the idea of some farm boy being the hero, and really smash the epic fight against evil out of the story.

I don't see what most people REALLY want from Star Wars.

An EU that uses other characters other than Anakin/Obiwan, Luke/Leia/Han Solo with supporting cast Chewbacca and Lando as the protagonists.


For all my dislike of Coruscant nights, I at least applaud the bravery it took to try and establish a new character based off a throwaway character from a Darth Maul novel. And link in popular characters from Medstar, although its attempt became too outlandish for me.


The inverse to that is the regular Joe from the movies. Or in other words, not everyone that has screentime in the movies has an awesome, heroic story like guy carrying an ice-cream maker is a Rebel Spy!
A backstory like "OMG, the Imperials are coming! Grab everything you can and flee!" would do just as nicely.

PainRack wrote:The inverse to that is the regular Joe from the movies. Or in other words, not everyone that has screentime in the movies has an awesome, heroic story like guy carrying an ice-cream maker is a Rebel Spy!
A backstory like "OMG, the Imperials are coming! Grab everything you can and flee!" would do just as nicely.

That is one thing that had always annoyed me in the EU. Though one nice thing is that most of those obviously tacked on backstory characters have no role in the main EU. However, I would have almost liked to see the flip side to some degree. Veterans of Endor should be more prevalent in the early post-ROTJ EU. This is especially grating given the minimalism that is otherwise prevalent.

Another related problem is characters that are from OT planets only. This is especially notable in the X-Wing novels. There is one character from Tatooine in both the Rouge and Wraith Squadron series.

PainRack wrote:An EU that uses other characters other than Anakin/Obiwan, Luke/Leia/Han Solo with supporting cast Chewbacca and Lando as the protagonists.

There already is some of that to a degree with things like the X-wing novels and as you mentioned the Courscant Nights series. It is also often the case that secondary characters are better written than the movie characters(and occasionally written as more powerful). One issue with such novels(primarily the X-wing series) is that it feels odd that the main characters aren't present and actively involved in solving the crisis. Where are Luke and Han during the liberation of Courscant? Wraith Squadron was better about this as Han was in command and Luke was clearly involved in searching for the truths about the Jedi.



As for changing/fixing Star Wars, there is two primary changes that could be made for the PT that would do a great deal to fix it. In TPM make Anakin closer in age to Luke in ANH. It would have three primary effects: it would cause older Anakin to be more of a parallel to Luke in terms of wanting adventure, It would make him infinitely more believable in the action sequences, it would also allow for the romance between him and Padme to begin early. That leads to the second major change. The romance in AOTC would have been much better if it was more parallel to Han and Leia in that they were desperate and on the run from assassins. The pure romance was mostly crap and brought down the rest of the movie a great deal. Most of the criticism of TPM is largely that it is felt to be made for kids and much of the annoyance of AOTC comes from the lousy romance more than anything else. I for one actually liked the political elements and thought that it was somewhat interesting, especially Palpatine's rise to power. Its not as if that wasn't present in the originals with the Imperial Navy to some degree.

Haruhi wrote:2. In my view this would make that video games like Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy were more fun, Star Wars as Advent Rising video game.

Did you like the 'force unleashed' games? i've only got the 2nd one, but it has them using the force to pull tie fighters out of the sky.

aussiemuscle308 wrote:Did you like the 'force unleashed' games? i've only got the 2nd one, but it has them using the force to pull tie fighters out of the sky.

I've played The Force Unleashed and I like to handle to a Force user that is so powerful. However, I believe that Advent Rising powers are better than the The Force Unleashed powers and lightsaber combat system of The Force Unleashed is pretty bad. So a good game could add lightsaber combat system of Jedi Academy with the Advent Rising powers.

1.) Slow down hyperspace travel significantly.

That is all.

Patroklos wrote:1.) Slow down hyperspace travel significantly.

That is all.

Why exactly?

Most military engagements in Star Wars make no sense as written because of it.

Patroklos wrote:Most military engagements in Star Wars make no sense as written because of it.

How they don't make sense?

Hyperdrive speeds depend massively on who is writing at the time. Sometimes it takes a day to get from the outer rim to Coruscant, sometimes it takes weeks to do so. The movies don't help this, because on the one hand the prequels seem to give really fast times, on the other you have the Millenium Falcon's trip to Bespin which needed to have taken months to accommodate Luke's training under Yoda.