An unexpected party takes care of ISIS (RAR!)

[Purple]

We don't know how long it took for those clones to be raised and trained, and we don't know if the method for training clones would work on non-clones that already have a mature brain.

I would be surprised if it didn't. Mainly because I do not understand what you could possibly mean by "empty" brain. Brains are newer empty. That's just not how they work. You could make the argument that it might work far better on young minds still in learning mode and such. But again, it's all idle speculation anyway.

Because we're getting tortured and beaten up and oppressed

Are we really? I am not sure which EU to go by, the old or the new but it is my understanding that the Empire was human centric. And we are humans or can at least pass for their equivalent. So as long as we don't do something stupid like rebel Earth should be fine. And frankly anyone stupid enough to rebel against an evil wizard with a knack for blowing up planets deserves what's coming to him.

and it sucks, and it's just this endless dystopia?

Does it really? Just what evil deeds did the Empire do? It brought order, peace and enslaved non humans. But that's about it. I can think of plenty of things that beat those in suckytude by many orders of magnitude right here on earth right now. Frankly speaking we humans have a terrible track record when it comes to running our societies. Maybe an evil wizard is what we need right now.

[Esquire]

Oh, for God's sake, not this again.

The Empire lands starships on protesters. It steals all the water from entire planets. It tortures people and - in case you somehow missed it - destroys whole worlds to make a point. For all that it's entirely plausible that the Empire would have been better for the Star Wars galaxy in the long run (they'd certainly have handled the Vong invasion better), and if you want to pretend the Empire's just misunderstood nobody can stop you, but they are not good people by any means.

[Purple]

Oh, for God's sake, not this again.

The Empire lands starships on protesters. It steals all the water from entire planets. It tortures people and - in case you somehow missed it - destroys whole worlds to make a point. For all that it's entirely plausible that the Empire would have been better for the Star Wars galaxy in the long run (they'd certainly have handled the Vong invasion better), and if you want to pretend the Empire's just misunderstood nobody can stop you, but they are not good people by any means.

I am not saying they are good people. I am just saying that if you take a cross section of the world today, all of it and average all things out and than do the same to the SW galaxy, when compared the two would likely not be dissimilar at worst and might actually favor the Empire at best. If they only do evil to people that rebel and leave everyone else alone that in it self would be an improvement.

[Simon_Jester]

We don't know how long it took for those clones to be raised and trained, and we don't know if the method for training clones would work on non-clones that already have a mature brain.

I would be surprised if it didn't. Mainly because I do not understand what you could possibly mean by "empty" brain. Brains are newer empty. That's just not how they work. You could make the argument that it might work far better on young minds still in learning mode and such. But again, it's all idle speculation anyway.

The brain of a flash-grown clone that reaches full adult size after a few months in a tank full of fluid is about as close to 'empty' as you can get. As in, that brain is a blank slate, containing no information. Especially if the brain is being kept sedated and unconscious during the growth phase, which would seem very much necessary if you're going to have your clone undergo such extensive physiological changes.

Basically, the techniques for flash-education of a clone created from scratch in a short time under laboratory conditions won't necessarily work on a normal person who grew up in a normal environment and already has decades' worth of memories, habits, and prior knowledge.

Because we're getting tortured and beaten up and oppressed

Are we really? I am not sure which EU to go by, the old or the new but it is my understanding that the Empire was human centric. And we are humans or can at least pass for their equivalent. So as long as we don't do something stupid like rebel Earth should be fine. And frankly anyone stupid enough to rebel against an evil wizard with a knack for blowing up planets deserves what's coming to him.

The Empire was generally described as quite oppressive against human populations; there's a reason people got desperate and angry enough to even contemplate rebellion in the first place.

and it sucks, and it's just this endless dystopia?

Does it really? Just what evil deeds did the Empire do? It brought order, peace and enslaved non humans. But that's about it. I can think of plenty of things that beat those in suckytude by many orders of magnitude right here on earth right now. Frankly speaking we humans have a terrible track record when it comes to running our societies. Maybe an evil wizard is what we need right now.

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

[Lord Revan]

and it sucks, and it's just this endless dystopia?

Does it really? Just what evil deeds did the Empire do? It brought order, peace and enslaved non humans. But that's about it. I can think of plenty of things that beat those in suckytude by many orders of magnitude right here on earth right now. Frankly speaking we humans have a terrible track record when it comes to running our societies. Maybe an evil wizard is what we need right now.

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

from what I've read it was actually worse in Nazi Germany with Hitler actively pitting the different sides on the german hierarchy against each other in a deliberate effort to make sure he had the final say in everything.

[Purple]

The Empire was generally described as quite oppressive against human populations; there's a reason people got desperate and angry enough to even contemplate rebellion in the first place.

Could you name some examples? I am really not that much into the EU.

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

How much of that washes down to the average citizen though? The way I see it the trains still run on time, bread is still in the stores and those that don't rebel still aren't murdered regardless of who is in charge.

[Lord Revan]

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

How much of that washes down to the average citizen though? The way I see it the trains still run on time, bread is still in the stores and those that don't rebel still aren't murdered regardless of who is in charge.

the thing is that bolded part is very subjective when it comes to dictatorships. there's a nice example of what I mean in the legendaries novel Death Star where an architect was sent to one of the worst prisons the Galactic Empire had cause she had backed the wrong candidate in the elections on her planet and it was strongly implied that she wasn't singled out either.

the thing is that no one is "safe" sure you might be able to live your life without ever being arrested but you'll never know. There's no actions you could take or avoid to prevent yourself from possibly getting arrested.

[Purple]

the thing is that bolded part is very subjective when it comes to dictatorships. there's a nice example of what I mean in the legendaries novel Death Star where an architect was sent to one of the worst prisons the Galactic Empire had cause she had backed the wrong candidate in the elections on her planet and it was strongly implied that she wasn't singled out either.

the thing is that no one is "safe" sure you might be able to live your life without ever being arrested but you'll never know. There's no actions you could take or avoid to prevent yourself from possibly getting arrested.

I am not sure that's such a good example. Just how active was she? Did she just vote for the wrong guy (than again why vote at all when you know you have an evil wizard ruling over you?) or did she actually publicly support him? If it's the later than... well frankly said if you live in a dictatorship ruled over by an evil wizard why would you be so stupid as to not stay the F away from everything that even hints at being political?

[Lord Revan]

IIRC she wasn't all that political and as to why vote at all, it could so that you have to vote and refusing would be seen as a act of sedition.

EDIT:also please to do remember that Palpatine being Darth Sidious isn't common knowlage in the Galactic Empire as far as most people know he's just a normal human from Naboo with no special powers what so ever.

[Purple]

IIRC she wasn't all that political and as to why vote at all, it could so that you have to vote and refusing would be seen as a act of sedition.

There has to be a way. In these systems there always is one. Basically I don't mind a system being needlessly cruel as long as it has a clearly defined path for you to follow and be unharmed. It's basically a game. The details of the rules don't matter as long as they are consistent and consistently enforced and you know what to expect.

EDIT:also please to do remember that Palpatine being Darth Sidious isn't common knowlage in the Galactic Empire as far as most people know he's just a normal human from Naboo with no special powers what so ever.

His special powers include a giant fleet of starships that can melt a planets crust off, a battle station that destroys what's left and an army at his beck and call. An army that mind you not a few decades ago crushed a galaxy wide rebellion. I'd say that's enough.

[InsaneTD]

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

How much of that washes down to the average citizen though? The way I see it the trains still run on time, bread is still in the stores and those that don't rebel still aren't murdered regardless of who is in charge.

the thing is that bolded part is very subjective when it comes to dictatorships. there's a nice example of what I mean in the legendaries novel Death Star where an architect was sent to one of the worst prisons the Galactic Empire had cause she had backed the wrong candidate in the elections on her planet and it was strongly implied that she wasn't singled out either.

the thing is that no one is "safe" sure you might be able to live your life without ever being arrested but you'll never know. There's no actions you could take or avoid to prevent yourself from possibly getting arrested.

So the guy controlling her planet rigged the local elections and tracked who voted for who, then used his influence with the local Moff to get his dissenters sent off planet. Remember, most planets still get a fair bit of leeway in how they are run, as long as they follow imperial rule of law.

[Lord Revan]

there's a nice example of what I mean in the legendaries novel Death Star where an architect was sent to one of the worst prisons the Galactic Empire had cause she had backed the wrong candidate in the elections on her planet and it was strongly implied that she wasn't singled out either.

the thing is that no one is "safe" sure you might be able to live your life without ever being arrested but you'll never know. There's no actions you could take or avoid to prevent yourself from possibly getting arrested.

So the guy controlling her planet rigged the local elections and tracked who voted for who, then used his influence with the local Moff to get his dissenters sent off planet. Remember, most planets still get a fair bit of leeway in how they are run, as long as they follow imperial rule of law.

that or the local moff didn't like who got elected and had him and his supporters declared traitors. either way it was made clear that the people had no way of knowing who the "right" candidate was until they got hauled to a Death World prison for supporting the wrong one.

However my point was that you could say "if I don't do this I'll be safe" and it wouldn't have been odd if there was rule in the Empire that said "everyone of age have to vote", dictators like to pretend they have the people's support after all.

My point is that there isn't a way where you can easily tell what to do and never get into trouble with the imperial authorities like Purple naively seems to think there would be, sure there's ways that reduce the likehood that you will be taken but you're never "safe".

[Simon_Jester]

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

How much of that washes down to the average citizen though?...

LOTS.

The way I see it the trains still run on time, bread is still in the stores and those that don't rebel still aren't murdered regardless of who is in charge.

First of all, the trains often don't run on time and the bread often has sawdust in it, in a totalitarian system like this. Functional modern societies run on two-way feedback: the person in charge of doing something gets in trouble if it isn't done correctly. And this trouble comes from below, not just above- otherwise it's too easy for people to hide evidence of wrongdoing, or flatter and manipulate their boss into authorizing the wrongdoing.

Totalitarian states don't do two-way feedback. The result is very predictable and simple. Lack of accountability leads to lack of quality management. It is simply not the case that the dictatorship is more efficient than an equivalent democracy because "they don't waste time voting/arguing/whatever."

As a rule, they are actively less efficient, because one of the main roles of all that voting/arguing/whatever is precisely to stop stupid idiots with power from doing stupid idiotic things.

Secondly, the secret police forces and organs of oppression required to keep the totalitarian state in power do not operate without creating a climate of fear. Look at Russia during Stalin's purges. Or Germany under the Gestapo, or East Germany under the Stasi that succeeded them. Ask people who lived under the Stasi whether they felt happy with knowing the level of scrutiny the secret police were placing them under.

Just because in theory you can live without attracting the attention of the state and being killed doesn't mean you don't have to live in fear. Because getting drunk and saying the local party boss is an asshole could result in your family being killed. Having the wrong person as a roommate could get your apartment burgled by the secret police who are searching for subversive materials. Just being part of the wrong ethnic group or being part of the wrong profession could suddenly make you a target of some sweeping policy by the government. And since the government is not accountable and can get away with destroying thousands of lives with no consequences, being such a target is a disaster.

I am not sure that's such a good example. Just how active was she? Did she just vote for the wrong guy (than again why vote at all when you know you have an evil wizard ruling over you?) or did she actually publicly support him? If it's the later than... well frankly said if you live in a dictatorship ruled over by an evil wizard why would you be so stupid as to not stay the F away from everything that even hints at being political?

Even aside from Revan's response...

Anything can be political.

Advocating more efficient school reforms can be political.

Pressing for the prosecution of someone who makes unsafe food can be political.

Writing a polite letter to the mayor suggesting that a restrictive civil ordnance be changed can be political.

Protesting the polluting factory that got set up next to the park where your children play can be political.

Listening to a band or watching shows by a director who is deemed 'subversive' by the state can be political after the fact. In other words, the mere fact that you liked the band in college is political even though at the time the state had not condemned them.

To avoid everything 'political,' you basically have to stop participating in anything like a cultural or civil life. Or you have to be a freaking psychic who can preemptively know everything that leads to trouble. In real life, citizens of dictatorships try a combination of both, which basically means that they are constantly living a restricted, terrified life compared to someone in a free society.

IIRC she wasn't all that political and as to why vote at all, it could so that you have to vote and refusing would be seen as a act of sedition.

There has to be a way. In these systems there always is one. Basically I don't mind a system being needlessly cruel as long as it has a clearly defined path for you to follow and be unharmed. It's basically a game. The details of the rules don't matter as long as they are consistent and consistently enforced and you know what to expect.

It never works this way in real life.

The first thing people do when given absolute power is become capricious. We have seen this time and again, over and over. Humans are not machines, and do not reliably do exactly the same thing in precisely the same way over and over. Even if humans were machines, governing a country in a just and proper fashion is too complicated a job for a machine to handle that way.

This is why, over and over, we see dictatorial states having to create secret police forces to spy on their people, and why arbitrary executions of dissidents are so common.

If it were as simple as you make it out to be, rebellion against the state would be far less common. But in reality, it is not that simple. Because once you remove the mechanism by which the leadership can be held responsible for abusing the people, they will abuse the people. Your fantasy of 'firm but fair' dictatorship is very much a fantasy.

The reality is dictatorship-as-abusive-parent: someone bigger and stronger than you who will beat the tar out of you just because they don't like the look on your face or because they lost a lot of money drinking and gambling and are mad about it.

That's what 'tyranny' means. An abusive father beating his wife and children every time his at best half-sober brain decides they've gotten out of line. Forever.

That is why the word 'tyranny' is generally considered to be a bad word in English.

And that's why I find it so disturbing that you keep fetishizing what is, in practice or in theory, tyranny.

[lord Martiya]

The way I see it the trains still run on time, bread is still in the stores and those that don't rebel still aren't murdered regardless of who is in charge.

Owen and Beru Lars (burned to death by Imperial troops for buying the two wrong droids) would like to disagree, and a certain group of Jawas (massacred for finding those droids wandering through the desert and taking them to resell) is supporting them.

[madd0ct0r]

In terms of order, I'd expect that the Empire was no more 'orderly' than, say, Nazi Germany. Which was actually a rather disorderly government because it was a single party dictatorship with no rule of law and with power shifting hands whenever a new guy managed to win Hitler's favor and/or dose him up with cocaine.

How much of that washes down to the average citizen though?...

LOTS.

The way I see it the trains still run on time, bread is still in the stores and those that don't rebel still aren't murdered regardless of who is in charge.

First of all, the trains often don't run on time and the bread often has sawdust in it, in a totalitarian system like this. Functional modern societies run on two-way feedback: the person in charge of doing something gets in trouble if it isn't done correctly. And this trouble comes from below, not just above- otherwise it's too easy for people to hide evidence of wrongdoing, or flatter and manipulate their boss into authorizing the wrongdoing.

Totalitarian states don't do two-way feedback. The result is very predictable and simple. Lack of accountability leads to lack of quality management. It is simply not the case that the dictatorship is more efficient than an equivalent democracy because "they don't waste time voting/arguing/whatever."

As a rule, they are actively less efficient, because one of the main roles of all that voting/arguing/whatever is precisely to stop stupid idiots with power from doing stupid idiotic things.

Secondly, the secret police forces and organs of oppression required to keep the totalitarian state in power do not operate without creating a climate of fear. Look at Russia during Stalin's purges. Or Germany under the Gestapo, or East Germany under the Stasi that succeeded them. Ask people who lived under the Stasi whether they felt happy with knowing the level of scrutiny the secret police were placing them under.

Just because in theory you can live without attracting the attention of the state and being killed doesn't mean you don't have to live in fear. Because getting drunk and saying the local party boss is an asshole could result in your family being killed. Having the wrong person as a roommate could get your apartment burgled by the secret police who are searching for subversive materials. Just being part of the wrong ethnic group or being part of the wrong profession could suddenly make you a target of some sweeping policy by the government. And since the government is not accountable and can get away with destroying thousands of lives with no consequences, being such a target is a disaster.

I am not sure that's such a good example. Just how active was she? Did she just vote for the wrong guy (than again why vote at all when you know you have an evil wizard ruling over you?) or did she actually publicly support him? If it's the later than... well frankly said if you live in a dictatorship ruled over by an evil wizard why would you be so stupid as to not stay the F away from everything that even hints at being political?

Even aside from Revan's response...

Anything can be political.

Advocating more efficient school reforms can be political.

Pressing for the prosecution of someone who makes unsafe food can be political.

Writing a polite letter to the mayor suggesting that a restrictive civil ordnance be changed can be political.

Protesting the polluting factory that got set up next to the park where your children play can be political.

Listening to a band or watching shows by a director who is deemed 'subversive' by the state can be political after the fact. In other words, the mere fact that you liked the band in college is political even though at the time the state had not condemned them.

To avoid everything 'political,' you basically have to stop participating in anything like a cultural or civil life. Or you have to be a freaking psychic who can preemptively know everything that leads to trouble. In real life, citizens of dictatorships try a combination of both, which basically means that they are constantly living a restricted, terrified life compared to someone in a free society.

IIRC she wasn't all that political and as to why vote at all, it could so that you have to vote and refusing would be seen as a act of sedition.

There has to be a way. In these systems there always is one. Basically I don't mind a system being needlessly cruel as long as it has a clearly defined path for you to follow and be unharmed. It's basically a game. The details of the rules don't matter as long as they are consistent and consistently enforced and you know what to expect.

It never works this way in real life.

The first thing people do when given absolute power is become capricious. We have seen this time and again, over and over. Humans are not machines, and do not reliably do exactly the same thing in precisely the same way over and over. Even if humans were machines, governing a country in a just and proper fashion is too complicated a job for a machine to handle that way.

This is why, over and over, we see dictatorial states having to create secret police forces to spy on their people, and why arbitrary executions of dissidents are so common.

If it were as simple as you make it out to be, rebellion against the state would be far less common. But in reality, it is not that simple. Because once you remove the mechanism by which the leadership can be held responsible for abusing the people, they will abuse the people. Your fantasy of 'firm but fair' dictatorship is very much a fantasy.

The reality is dictatorship-as-abusive-parent: someone bigger and stronger than you who will beat the tar out of you just because they don't like the look on your face or because they lost a lot of money drinking and gambling and are mad about it.

That's what 'tyranny' means. An abusive father beating his wife and children every time his at best half-sober brain decides they've gotten out of line. Forever.

That is why the word 'tyranny' is generally considered to be a bad word in English.

And that's why I find it so disturbing that you keep fetishizing what is, in practice or in theory, tyranny.

While normally I like to wind simon up a bit by siding with purple, I can state from experience that being followed by secret police, dealing with cops demanding bribes to not be arrested for things like reporting your own bike being stolen or being arrested because you showed your history class a textbook including an image of the previous regime's flag does mean you end up being very cautious.

The unpredicatability of it makes people try harder and harder to please - same neuoro paths that casinos exploit.

[Simon_Jester]

The difference is that casinos exploit the neural paths by giving you unpredictable rewards. Dictatorships exploit them by giving you unpredictable punishments.

Unpredictable rewards turn you into an addict to whatever behavior gets you the reward, even if you're having to expend more effort to get the reward than the reward is worth.

Unpredictable punishment tends to make people neurotic, defensive, and violent. Or, in the face of a real and deadly source of 'punishment' that they know may capriciously kill them, it makes them submissive, downtrodden, and afraid to participate in public life anywhere near that person.

[Purple]

Unpredictable punishment tends to make people neurotic, defensive, and violent. Or, in the face of a real and deadly source of 'punishment' that they know may capriciously kill them, it makes them submissive, downtrodden, and afraid to participate in public life anywhere near that person.

I could live with that. Seriously, it would be different if I was born in the SW universe and did not know about the Evil Wizard. But being from Earth as I am and knowing about it and than jumping into the Empire as you just describe it I'd be quite happy.

[Simon_Jester]

Unpredictable punishment tends to make people neurotic, defensive, and violent. Or, in the face of a real and deadly source of 'punishment' that they know may capriciously kill them, it makes them submissive, downtrodden, and afraid to participate in public life anywhere near that person.

I could live with that.

In the literal sense that you probably would not die, yes you could "live with that."

But "how about living under a tyranny?" is like "hey, how about I chop off your arm?" Sure, you could live with having your arm chopped off. You probably wouldn't die, assuming good medical care.

But you'd have to be a babbling idiot, or a lunatic, to think that living with one arm is better than living with two arms.

Likewise, you'd have to be a fool or a lunatic to think that living under tyranny is better than living under the orderly rule of law.

Seriously, it would be different if I was born in the SW universe and did not know about the Evil Wizard. But being from Earth as I am and knowing about it and than jumping into the Empire as you just describe it I'd be quite happy.

Please understand, though, that your personal fetish for being submissive, downtrodden, and afraid to participate in public life is your personal issue.

There are people out there who find the prospect of losing an arm to be exciting and intriguing. They cannot presume to speak for the rest of us.

[Purple]

Please understand, though, that your personal fetish for being submissive, downtrodden, and afraid to participate in public life is your personal issue.

It's not about any of those. It's about the evil wizard. I simply find the knowledge and certainty of there being an evil wizard out there to be sufficiently good to outweigh any costs for it short of being outright killed before the time it takes for the fact to sink in.

[Simon_Jester]

...Why?

[Purple]

...Why?

It's an evil wizard. Why is that so complicated?

[Iroscato]

But being from Earth as I am

Pfff. Pull the other one.

[Purple]

But being from Earth as I am

Pfff. Pull the other one.

Questions of my origin are irrelevant. What matters is my familiarity with the SW movies and thus knowledge of the evil wizardness of Palpatine.

[Simon_Jester]

...Why?

It's an evil wizard. Why is that so complicated?

Put this way.

If a man materializes in my apartment and beats me up, I'm not happy.

If an elf materializes in my apartment and beats me up, I'm still not happy. "ELVES ARE REAL!" does not cancel out "I got beaten up!" Especially not if I can look forward to a lifetime of similar beatings.

At that point I'd be thinking "Elves are real, and I wish they weren't!"

Now substitute "evil wizard" in place of "elf" and you have my argument...

[Purple]

...Why?

It's an evil wizard. Why is that so complicated?

Put this way.

If a man materializes in my apartment and beats me up, I'm not happy.

If an elf materializes in my apartment and beats me up, I'm still not happy. "ELVES ARE REAL!" does not cancel out "I got beaten up!" Especially not if I can look forward to a lifetime of similar beatings.

At that point I'd be thinking "Elves are real, and I wish they weren't!"

Now substitute "evil wizard" in place of "elf" and you have my argument...

Whilst I understand your line of reasoning the problem with it is that you assume anything else can be equated to an evil wizard. And this is false. Simply put your argument is right each and every time except in the case of an evil wizard. In which case nothing else matters because it's an evil wizard.

Also, in the case of an evil wizard the line to think would not be "Evil wizards are real!" but "EVIL WIZARD!". There is no need for anything further than that.