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I always thought that when Jedi had a proper vision it was the force willing to tell them stuff. As in the living force decided that this guy needs to know that thing. And that without such insight they were basically stuck sensing and feeling around like you just said.

Purple wrote:I always thought that when Jedi had a proper vision it was the force willing to tell them stuff. As in the living force decided that this guy needs to know that thing. And that without such insight they were basically stuck sensing and feeling around like you just said.

it's possible, either way the point that Jedi foresight isn't anywhere close to accurate or predictble to make see the opponents strategy and tactics in perfect detail (or map hack as Thanas calls it) still stands.

It should be noted that there was a *sort of* 'hack' that the Jedi used on occasion back in the day-- Battle Mediation. But that was more directed controlling of troops based upon Force sensing of what was going on around them, so essentially their 'spider-sense' writ large.

As for long-range predictions, both Yoda and Obi-wan have stated that it's difficult to see. The impression I always got watching the OT was that they could get a vague idea of the most *likely* possibility, but that they were always careful to keep their options open, unless they were at the point where they felt like they didn't have any...

Elheru Aran wrote:It should be noted that there was a *sort of* 'hack' that the Jedi used on occasion back in the day-- Battle Mediation. But that was more directed controlling of troops based upon Force sensing of what was going on around them, so essentially their 'spider-sense' writ large.

that said not even Battle Meditation could reveal the enemies plans before they made them, was more large scale Force Sensing with a telepathic component (to boost the morale of your troops while hurting the morale of the enemy) and even then you could surprice the Jedi using it, that was just harder to do, not this "I know your every plan in perfect detail before you make them" BS some people are suggesting.

As for long-range predictions, both Yoda and Obi-wan have stated that it's difficult to see. The impression I always got watching the OT was that they could get a vague idea of the most *likely* possibility, but that they were always careful to keep their options open, unless they were at the point where they felt like they didn't have any...

that's more or less the impression I got

Thanas wrote:No, I am not denying that precog is a thing for quick actions in high-stress environments. What I am denying is the massive no-limits fallacy that claims that it also offers universal insights into vast strategic plans. In essence, I believe that it allows Jedi to deflect things like blaster bolts and that it might even allow them stuff on a small-unit scale like knowing where to direct the torpedoes at. What I do not, not for one second, believe is that it allows a force user to know who is plotting against him and what the plans of his strategical opponent are. In short, it is not a maphack.

How do you account for the fact that the jedi Council fully expected to be able to tell that the clone army had been created as well as the fact that Sidious was controlling the Senate? It is not a perfect ability, but it does allow knowledge of who is plotting against them unless that person is also Force sensitive.

Purple wrote:I always thought that when Jedi had a proper vision it was the force willing to tell them stuff. As in the living force decided that this guy needs to know that thing. And that without such insight they were basically stuck sensing and feeling around like you just said.

This would require that the Force is sentient. Which would then require that the Force is amoral given that it allowed Palpatine to take power.

Lord Revan wrote:Granted some here treat Jedi foresight and precog like trek fanatics treat borg addaption in that it's perfect and undefeatble.

When did I claim it was perfect? I simply stated that its main weakness had always been fellow Force users. AOTC indicates that larger events, like the creation of a clone army or Palpatine controlling the Senate, should be detectable under normal circumstances. And given that it seems to be based on reading intent, given the failure of Jedi to detect Order 66 and the failure to read other Force users, it should be more effective against elaborate plans than improvised ones.

Lord Revan wrote:it's possible, either way the point that Jedi foresight isn't anywhere close to accurate or predictble to make see the opponents strategy and tactics in perfect detail (or map hack as Thanas calls it) still stands.

When did I ever claim it allowed to see absolute details about a strategy? That is unnecessary, the point is always that it allows more broad ideas about what is occurring. And a more detailed strategy would be easier to see in advance because there were more moving parts and thus opportunities to see it.

Lord Revan wrote:that said not even Battle Meditation could reveal the enemies plans before they made them, was more large scale Force Sensing with a telepathic component (to boost the morale of your troops while hurting the morale of the enemy) and even then you could surprice the Jedi using it, that was just harder to do, not this "I know your every plan in perfect detail before you make them" BS some people are suggesting.

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I never indicated that it was possible to see plans before they happened. Quite the opposite. I suggested that it was more effective to not properly plan in advance against a Jedi. This fits with the ultimate success of the Rebel Alliance at Endor. None of the major actions that led to their success were planned.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:How do you account for the fact that the jedi Council fully expected to be able to tell that the clone army had been created as well as the fact that Sidious was controlling the Senate? It is not a perfect ability, but it does allow knowledge of who is plotting against them unless that person is also Force sensitive.

I'd chalk it up to hubris. They did not expect to magically know off it. They simply did not expect that something as big as a giant army could be created right under their noses without anyone noticing. Just like they did not expect one of their own would turn to evil or that something could be deleted from their archives.

This would require that the Force is sentient. Which would then require that the Force is amoral given that it allowed Palpatine to take power.

I thought both were a given. The jedi keep talking of the living force and the prophecy. And given the contents of this prophecy it's clear the force is not a force for good but for balance.

Based on what? Especially given that bringing balance to the Force canonically means destroying the Sith.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Based on what? Especially given that bringing balance to the Force canonically means destroying the Sith.

Based on the fact that the process involves a galactic civil war, decades of brutal oppression and at least one planet wide genocide. Oh, and the extermination of all real jedi.

It seems to me pretty clear that the end goal was to wipe the slate clean. Luke might try and build up some sort of jedi order. But it won't be the one that existed for millennia. Equally some new dark side user may emerge but he won't really be a proper sith. Both the jedi and sith, as the galaxy knew them are gone.

All that means is that the Force is not able to achieve its goals with zero cost.

Of course, their is a Dark Side, which suggests the Force contains an element of evil. Though The Clone Wars had different aspects of the Force personified by different beings.

The Romulan Republic wrote:All that means is that the Force is not able to achieve its goals with zero cost.

Which brings you to the obvious question. Knowing the cost will be great, what kind of person does it take to make a choice to go ahead anyway? Can we really say that sort of force is not at the very least careless?

Of course, their is a Dark Side, which suggests the Force contains an element of evil. Though The Clone Wars had different aspects of the Force personified by different beings.

Honestly I do not know what to think of the whole deal with that episode. But ultimately I always felt that the prophecy attached to the movies was basically the force hitting a reset button as far as force users are concerned.

Purple wrote:Which brings you to the obvious question. Knowing the cost will be great, what kind of person does it take to make a choice to go ahead anyway? Can we really say that sort of force is not at the very least careless?

No more than any politician or commander who implements a policy they know will be costly but believe will be beneficially in the long run.

Also, can we definitively say that the Force is omniscient about the future?

Honestly I do not know what to think of the whole deal with that episode. But ultimately I always felt that the prophecy attached to the movies was basically the force hitting a reset button as far as force users are concerned.

I know that idea, or something similar, is a popular interpretation these days, but I don't think it fits the films.

The Romulan Republic wrote:No more than any politician or commander who implements a policy they know will be costly but believe will be beneficially in the long run.

Which means a lot. And than some.

Also, can we definitively say that the Force is omniscient about the future?

Well no. But I think we can safely say that it does not take omniscience to figure out that any plan which involves leading the sith to a position of power over the entire galaxy is going to end up with a body count.

I know that idea, or something similar, is a popular interpretation these days, but I don't think it fits the films.

Really? How so?

You presume that the Force planned for Sideous to take over. But is that necessarily the case? It happened, in part, because Anakin aided Palpatine. Did the Force control Anakin? Does free will not exist in Star Wars?

And the idea that the Force meant for the Empire to rule and the Jedi to be exterminated just seems too cynical for the fairly straight forward good vs. evil of the Star Wars films, especially the Original Trilogy. Its the kind of thing fans would come up with because grimdark and moral relativism are popular with modern audiences.

Purple wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote:How do you account for the fact that the jedi Council fully expected to be able to tell that the clone army had been created as well as the fact that Sidious was controlling the Senate? It is not a perfect ability, but it does allow knowledge of who is plotting against them unless that person is also Force sensitive.

I'd chalk it up to hubris. They did not expect to magically know off it. They simply did not expect that something as big as a giant army could be created right under their noses without anyone noticing. Just like they did not expect one of their own would turn to evil or that something could be deleted from their archives.

Attack of the Clones wrote: YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.
WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
YODA: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed, multiply our adversaries will.

That doesn't scream "we were too arrogant" to me.

A possiblity it that Skyboy there has failed to see is that the creation of the Clone Army was something so big of an event that the Jedi should have seen some way or another and the fact that they had no fore warning what so ever is why they're panicking.

There's nothing in current EU, the legendaries or the films that suggests that Jedi would know their opponents plans in perfect detail and only way to prevent that is to not plan at all. In fact there's times when a (dark) Jedi got caught with their proverbial pants down when their opponents made plans they weren't expecting.

Lord Revan wrote:A possiblity it that Skyboy there has failed to see is that the creation of the Clone Army was something so big of an event that the Jedi should have seen some way or another and the fact that they had no fore warning what so ever is why they're panicking.

Obviously that is the case. But so is the emergence of a Grand Admiral that unifies the remaining Empire.

There's nothing in current EU, the legendaries or the films that suggests that Jedi would know their opponents plans in perfect detail and only way to prevent that is to not plan at all. In fact there's times when a (dark) Jedi got caught with their proverbial pants down when their opponents made plans they weren't expecting.

Nice strawman. Tell me where I stated anything about perfect detail? I in fact said the opposite. Perfect detail is not required to gain insight into an opponent's plans. That was all I have ever said, that is is possible for Jedi to gain insight into complex plans when their abilities are not hindered(as they generally are throughout the films).

What dark Jedi are you referring to? Is it still canon?

The Dark Jedi I was referring to was a fallen member of the Jedi Order in the Clone Wars CGI series so yes it's still canon and he was defeated by clone troopers making a plan how to deal with him.

Nice strawman. Tell me where I stated anything about perfect detail? I in fact said the opposite. Perfect detail is not required to gain insight into an opponent's plans. That was all I have ever said, that is is possible for Jedi to gain insight into complex plans when their abilities are not hindered(as they generally are throughout the films).

you're the one suggesting that Jedi make non-Force using generals and admiral useless cause the Jedi can predict what the plans of the opponent and counter them. I'm saying that Force based foresight is nowhere close to accurate or predictble for that.

Obviously that is the case. But so is the emergence of a Grand Admiral that unifies the remaining Empire.

Then sadly for you Grand Admiral Thrawn never got even close to unifying the various Imperials rememnant faction and in the end was just talent and powerful warlord that got lucky cause the New Republic wasn't expecting him and in fact was loosing steam in his campain when he was defeated.

The Romulan Republic wrote:You presume that the Force planned for Sideous to take over. But is that necessarily the case? It happened, in part, because Anakin aided Palpatine. Did the Force control Anakin? Does free will not exist in Star Wars?

Honestly I think that no, free will as such does not truly exist. Your average creature in the universe will, 99% of the time have full freedom of course. But those 1% when the force wants something to happen that will happen. It might come in the form of influencing force users, effecting random chance results etc. But it will happen.

And the idea that the Force meant for the Empire to rule and the Jedi to be exterminated just seems too cynical for the fairly straight forward good vs. evil of the Star Wars films, especially the Original Trilogy. Its the kind of thing fans would come up with because grimdark and moral relativism are popular with modern audiences.

I don't know. Honestly I think that the prequel jedi were not good at all. "We are not here to free slaves" and all that. A force for "good" does not neglect evil just because it happens outside of their jurisdiction. I think that the prequel jedi were no longer properly good and the force needed to hit a reset switch and kill off both the bad (sith) and ugly (jedi) to get to a state where eventually some good may form (Luke).

That's why I am not calling the force it self evil, just careless. Like I would a fire department driver who in trying to do the right thing and get to a fire quickly runs over 20 random people.

Balrog wrote:

Attack of the Clones wrote: YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.
WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
YODA: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed, multiply our adversaries will.

That doesn't scream "we were too arrogant" to me.

Actually it screams panic. We basically have a rogue member of the jedi order (a jedi posing as a dead master) deleting data from their archives right under their noses. Following that he goes off and orders a giant clone army. And these guys have suddenly had their security blanked of arrogant superiority torn out from under their feet. I mean, this is one thing they should have sensed as the guy was right there in their temple, deleting their data.

Lord Revan wrote:The Dark Jedi I was referring to was a fallen member of the Jedi Order in the Clone Wars CGI series so yes it's still canon and he was defeated by clone troopers making a plan how to deal with him.

But that was an immediate plan as opposed to a long term one. Exactly the sort of thing that should stop Jedi.

you're the one suggesting that Jedi make non-Force using generals and admiral useless cause the Jedi can predict what the plans of the opponent and counter them. I'm saying that Force based foresight is nowhere close to accurate or predictble for that.

It doesn't make them useless, but it is a major issue that should be considered by any good strategist. The best backup plan is to improvise furiously. Which is more generally what happens in most battles anyway.

Then sadly for you Grand Admiral Thrawn never got even close to unifying the various Imperials rememnant faction and in the end was just talent and powerful warlord that got lucky cause the New Republic wasn't expecting him and in fact was loosing steam in his campain when he was defeated.

Regardless, at that point Thrawn was still the most important threat to the New Republic. Thus it should have had an impact.

Purple wrote:

Balrog wrote:

Attack of the Clones wrote: YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.
WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
YODA: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed, multiply our adversaries will.

That doesn't scream "we were too arrogant" to me.

Actually it screams panic. We basically have a rogue member of the jedi order (a jedi posing as a dead master) deleting data from their archives right under their noses. Following that he goes off and orders a giant clone army. And these guys have suddenly had their security blanked of arrogant superiority torn out from under their feet. I mean, this is one thing they should have sensed as the guy was right there in their temple, deleting their data.

Except that's not what Windu says. Perhaps if they had been talking in more vague tones about not seeing this coming and should've known and yadda yadda, but they specifically mention that it was their weakened Force powers as the cause for why they didn't see this coming. You can argue semantics about whether they expected to foresee the creation of the clone army in general or foresee Dooku's machinations specifically while roaming the building, but it is something they expected to have know of before literally stumbling upon it and didn't because Dark Side. Dooku brings up the same reason as to why they also didn't detect or foresee the Senate being subverted by a Sith Lord.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that, of the 10,000 Jedi Knights in the Republic at the time, one of them might have a vision of something bad happening soon and informing the Council (or a Council member foreseeing it themselves), then informing the Senate who would ask for them to resolve the problem. That's probably part of why the Senate kept the Jedi around as quasi-diplomats/enforcers beyond simply being guys with laser swords and mind tricks. It might be harder for an individual Jedi on their own to replicate the same ability, but if they're powerful enough, eh. I wouldn't discount it out of hand.

Balrog wrote:Except that's not what Windu says. Perhaps if they had been talking in more vague tones about not seeing this coming and should've known and yadda yadda, but they specifically mention that it was their weakened Force powers as the cause for why they didn't see this coming. You can argue semantics about whether they expected to foresee the creation of the clone army in general or foresee Dooku's machinations specifically while roaming the building, but it is something they expected to have know of before literally stumbling upon it and didn't because Dark Side. Dooku brings up the same reason as to why they also didn't detect or foresee the Senate being subverted by a Sith Lord.

My point is that both those cases involve someone powerful in the force and thus presumably detectable doing something right under their noses. You have someone maliciously deleting data from the jedi archives inside the very temple, surrounded by all the jedi who exist (give or take) whilst hatching a plan to raise an army. And than you have the senate, the one body that you think the jedi would bloody well pay attention to being infiltrated by a sith lord. You don't need more than very basic precognition or telepathy to pick that one up unless something is seriously wrong. Which is what I took that reaction to mean.

Purple wrote:

Balrog wrote:Except that's not what Windu says. Perhaps if they had been talking in more vague tones about not seeing this coming and should've known and yadda yadda, but they specifically mention that it was their weakened Force powers as the cause for why they didn't see this coming. You can argue semantics about whether they expected to foresee the creation of the clone army in general or foresee Dooku's machinations specifically while roaming the building, but it is something they expected to have know of before literally stumbling upon it and didn't because Dark Side. Dooku brings up the same reason as to why they also didn't detect or foresee the Senate being subverted by a Sith Lord.

My point is that both those cases involve someone powerful in the force and thus presumably detectable doing something right under their noses. You have someone maliciously deleting data from the jedi archives inside the very temple, surrounded by all the jedi who exist (give or take) whilst hatching a plan to raise an army. And than you have the senate, the one body that you think the jedi would bloody well pay attention to being infiltrated by a sith lord. You don't need more than very basic precognition or telepathy to pick that one up unless something is seriously wrong. Which is what I took that reaction to mean.

Well for one thing it has been established previously that Force users can hide themselves from each other, but additionally I agree their reaction meant something was seriously wrong. And that seriously wrong thing was their ability to use the Force. This idea that the Force wasn't working right for the Jedi was further established in the RotS novel (which is still canon) and from various sources in the Legends canon.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

you're the one suggesting that Jedi make non-Force using generals and admiral useless cause the Jedi can predict what the plans of the opponent and counter them. I'm saying that Force based foresight is nowhere close to accurate or predictble for that.

It doesn't make them useless, but it is a major issue that should be considered by any good strategist. The best backup plan is to improvise furiously. Which is more generally what happens in most battles anyway.

No, it shouldn't, for there is not a shred of evidence that precog works like you intend it to do. This is just like the borg adaptability wankers - because we see it working in limited circumstances in some select instances, obviously that means it must work all the time. It is bullshit.

Thanas wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

you're the one suggesting that Jedi make non-Force using generals and admiral useless cause the Jedi can predict what the plans of the opponent and counter them. I'm saying that Force based foresight is nowhere close to accurate or predictble for that.

It doesn't make them useless, but it is a major issue that should be considered by any good strategist. The best backup plan is to improvise furiously. Which is more generally what happens in most battles anyway.

No, it shouldn't, for there is not a shred of evidence that precog works like you intend it to do. This is just like the borg adaptability wankers - because we see it working in limited circumstances in some select instances, obviously that means it must work all the time. It is bullshit.

they also seem to forget that we saw what Force Visions are like in ROTS and it was random snippets of info without context. So at best it's just another way to gain information on enemy movements no better then non-Force based methods, at worst it's folly to use it on it's on as your own assumptions can make you totally misjudge what the vision meant.

Galvatron wrote:Granted, the character who said that is depicted as pretty much a crazy, tinfoil hat-wearing war vet. Then again, someone will inevitably point out that the first Death Star is, resource-wise, the equivalent to (IIRC) roughly a billion star destroyers...

Yet so many insist we take Han Solo off the cuff comment regarding firepower to kill a planet as a expert engineering statement. Along with the "other side of the galaxy by now" comment.