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Galvatron wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:The Prequels are the Voyager / Enterprise of Star Wars

The height of irony is that this was both a marketing campaign teaser for TPM and a cheap shot at Roland Emmerich's Godzilla...

Was that offical or a fan product? Because I don't see Lucasfilm actually using the color palate of another film in that context.

good lord is that real?

Adam Reynolds wrote:

Galvatron wrote:

Prometheus Unbound wrote:The Prequels are the Voyager / Enterprise of Star Wars

The height of irony is that this was both a marketing campaign teaser for TPM and a cheap shot at Roland Emmerich's Godzilla...

Was that offical or a fan product? Because I don't see Lucasfilm actually using the color palate of another film in that context.

It was official and posted on starwars.com in the wake of the 1998 Godzilla release.

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/news ... -godzilla/
http://www.zeldman.com/adgraveyard/30.html

I'm surprised that they would have done that. It is interesting how the internet has evolved.

Galvatron wrote:And then people whine when TPM gets bashed for its plot.

Probably because the plot to TPM gets bashed by Nerd Ragers too stupid to follow the goings on in a movie aimed at 10-year-olds, while the 1998 Godzilla had almost no plot whatsoever -even for a Godzilla movie.

Elfdart wrote:

Galvatron wrote:And then people whine when TPM gets bashed for its plot.

Probably because the plot to TPM gets bashed by Nerd Ragers too stupid to follow the goings on in a movie aimed at 10-year-olds, while the 1998 Godzilla had almost no plot whatsoever -even for a Godzilla movie.

Yeah, all my favourite movies as a ten-year old started with confused ramblings about trade disputes and taxes. They all also ended with an installment featuring the hero slaughtering a room full of children. Ten-year olds are hardcore motherfuckers.

well it's not original star trek was doing that a decade before

Elfdart wrote: Probably because the plot to TPM gets bashed by Nerd Ragers too stupid to follow the goings on in a movie aimed at 10-year-olds, while the 1998 Godzilla had almost no plot whatsoever -even for a Godzilla movie.

Giant monster appears in New York, mysteriously hides in it like a ninja, then they rip off the raptor scenes from Jurassic park, plus something to do with worms... or something like that ^^

Yea, give me the PT over Godzilla '98.

Metahive wrote:

Elfdart wrote:

Galvatron wrote:And then people whine when TPM gets bashed for its plot.

Probably because the plot to TPM gets bashed by Nerd Ragers too stupid to follow the goings on in a movie aimed at 10-year-olds, while the 1998 Godzilla had almost no plot whatsoever -even for a Godzilla movie.

Yeah, all my favourite movies as a ten-year old started with confused ramblings about trade disputes and taxes. They all also ended with an installment featuring the hero slaughtering a room full of children. Ten-year olds are hardcore motherfuckers.

Someone who started off as a 9 year old when TPM came out(like me) ended up a teenager when ROTS came out. It's almost like the films matured with their audience.

Adam Reynolds wrote: Someone who started off as a 9 year old when TPM came out(like me) ended up a teenager when ROTS came out. It's almost like the films matured with their audience.

Well, they went from sleep-inducingly boring to facepalmingly juvenile, so maybe you're right. Although I think kids are commonly more lively than TPM was.

Adam Reynolds wrote:Someone who started off as a 9 year old when TPM came out(like me) ended up a teenager when ROTS came out. It's almost like the films matured with their audience.

Splendid! Can you clear up the mystery of what the Trade Federation actually wanted? I still don't know what reason they had for blockading Naboo in the first place.

Galvatron wrote:

Adam Reynolds wrote:Someone who started off as a 9 year old when TPM came out(like me) ended up a teenager when ROTS came out. It's almost like the films matured with their audience.

Splendid! Can you clear up the mystery of what the Trade Federation actually wanted? I still don't know what reason they had for blockading Naboo in the first place.

TAXES!

The story of the fall of Anakin Skywalker could have been an amazing classic. But it simply didn't pan out that way - Lucas simply wasn't able to tell the story competently. I can't say I fault him - it's a really hard story to tell - portraying a likeable hero who ultimately (but sympathetically) becomes the villain. I certainly couldn't have done better. But then again, Lucas could have hired any number of talented writers to help him... but he didn't. And so what we have is an extremely mediocre version of the fall of Anakin Skywalker.

That was my main issue with the PT as well. TPM wasn't really a problem in this regard since he was still a kid and everything, but in AOTC he goes from "whiny teenager" to "child murderer" within half the movie. Where do you go from there? I mean, I suppose you could argue he went from "indiscriminately slaughtering children during a homicidal rampage" to "deliberately slaughtering children in a failed attempt to save wife." I guess that's something but IMO once you've murdered children, you've crossed the moral event horizon and you're no longer a good guy. Everything you do past that point is just adding to the pile of evil deeds you've done.

And IMO Padme isn't much better seeing as she ignored the whole thing and married the guy. Believe it or not the novelization is actually worse, as it kind of implies that she approves of Anakin's actions, or at least makes it explicit that she excuses him for it:

He ignored her. “Not just the men,” he went on. “And the men are the only fighters among the Tuskens. No, not just them. The women and the children, too.” His face contorted, as if he was teetering between anger and guilt. “They’re like animals!” he said suddenly. “And I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!”

...

“I hate them!” he insisted.

“And they earned your anger, Anakin.” [said Padmé]

Jeez, with heroes like these, why bother with the villains?

Galvatron wrote:

Adam Reynolds wrote:Someone who started off as a 9 year old when TPM came out(like me) ended up a teenager when ROTS came out. It's almost like the films matured with their audience.

Splendid! Can you clear up the mystery of what the Trade Federation actually wanted? I still don't know what reason they had for blockading Naboo in the first place.

Palpatine was the Senator from Naboo, and he and the Republic in general were fucking with them on trade taxes.I think I understood that even as a 12-year-old kid seeing the movie in the theater.

Tribble wrote:And IMO Padme isn't much better seeing as she ignored the whole thing and married the guy. Believe it or not the novelization is actually worse, as it kind of implies that she approves of Anakin's actions, or at least makes it explicit that she excuses him for it:

That almost might have worked (the concept, not that terrible dialogue) if they'd worked into a broader arc in AOTC and ROTS about Padme (among others) indulging Anakin's worst behaviors, excusing away the problems with it over and over again because of love and friendship. It'd be sort of like how Obi-Wan prefers to think of Anakin as being "dead" and him and Vader as separate in the OT.

On the OP-

The OT is definitely better. In a franchise like Star Wars, the surface stuff (i.e. is the dialogue snappy? Is it well-paced? etc) matters a lot, and the Prequels fuck that up over and over again. If they hadn't fucked that up, I think they'd be a lot more popular with Star Wars fans even if folks still thought that Jar-Jar and Midichlorians were stupid.

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Galvatron wrote:

Adam Reynolds wrote:Someone who started off as a 9 year old when TPM came out(like me) ended up a teenager when ROTS came out. It's almost like the films matured with their audience.

Splendid! Can you clear up the mystery of what the Trade Federation actually wanted? I still don't know what reason they had for blockading Naboo in the first place.

Palpatine was the Senator from Naboo, and he and the Republic in general were fucking with them on trade taxes.I think I understood that even as a 12-year-old kid seeing the movie in the theater.

I understood it too in a very general sense, but then Palpatine's speech to the Senate made it sound like Naboo opposed the taxes. So what is it that the Trade Federation wanted from them?

The TF wanted the Republic to drop the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES. So if you read the opening crawl the there is a line that says

HOPING TO RESOLVE THE MATTER(TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES) WITH A FLEET OF DEADLY BATTLESHIPS(TF)

See this line? Who had a fleet of deadly battleships in TPM? Well the only one we see is the one utilized by the TF. So the were hoping to resolve the matter, the matter being TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES. The TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES was the thing that was in dispute that the TF thought they would resolve by blockading the planet of Naboo. So with Sidious being involved and goading the TF into actions, which the Jedi even knew was not right upon boarding the ship in which turned out to be true on the Jedi's part. So Sidious was there man in the senate that the TF thought would help them get rid of the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES!

But when the TF realized that "they might" be dealing with Jedi, that forced Sidious to accelerate the plans and start the invasion. So now a simple plan of blockading Naboo=get rid of the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES is now completely shot and when we see the senate in the middle of the film, the invasion is the top priority, not the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES. The TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES was what caused all the events leading to the invasion. That was the top priority for the senate when the Queen arrives, the invasion! Oh and the oppression too!

So that was what the TF wanted on their part was an end to the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES! Because the TF engages in the business of trade and taxes on those routes they used for trading was a problem to the TF finances. They didn't want to pay taxes for the routes they used to engage in the business of trading.

And the senate levied the taxes, which the TF opposed. The Naboo were just invaded. The only people who had any stake in the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES where the:

Republic Senate=Levied taxes on trade routes
Trade Federation=Didn't want to pay the taxes on trade routes that were levied by the Republic Senate.

No other parties were interested in the matter of the taxes of trade routes. Including Naboo. The Naboo didn't have to pay taxes or collect taxes for or from the trade federation.

Andy Wylde wrote:And the senate levied the taxes, which the TF opposed. The Naboo were just invaded. The only people who had any stake in the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES where the:

Republic Senate=Levied taxes on trade routes
Trade Federation=Didn't want to pay the taxes on trade routes that were levied by the Republic Senate.

No other parties were interested in the matter of the taxes of trade routes. Including Naboo. The Naboo didn't have to pay taxes or collect taxes for or from the trade federation.

That still doesn't explain why the TF singled out and blockaded Naboo. You're telling me that the TF did what they did because they did it. You're not telling me why.

From what I can tell, the blockade makes about as much sense as the GOP punishing a red state because a Democrat got elected President.

Galvatron wrote:

Andy Wylde wrote:And the senate levied the taxes, which the TF opposed. The Naboo were just invaded. The only people who had any stake in the TAXES ON TRADE ROUTES where the:

Republic Senate=Levied taxes on trade routes
Trade Federation=Didn't want to pay the taxes on trade routes that were levied by the Republic Senate.

No other parties were interested in the matter of the taxes of trade routes. Including Naboo. The Naboo didn't have to pay taxes or collect taxes for or from the trade federation.

That still doesn't explain why the TF singled out and blockaded Naboo. You're telling me that the TF did what they did because they did it. You're not telling me why.

From what I can tell, the blockade makes about as much sense as the GOP punishing a red state because a Democrat got elected President.

Palpatine was the senator from Naboo. Palpatine is also Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious is influencing the TF. Naboo is a planet that is on the trade route in the outlying star systems that the TF utilize for trade purposes. Darth Sidious is manipulating the TF to blockade Naboo specifically because Darth Sidious is also Palpatine and Palpatine is the senator of Naboo. So he is using his alter ego to manipulate the TF to blockade Naboo which the TF thinks will end the taxes on trade routes, but little do they know that Sidious doesn't give a shit either way because this is all to help him gain the position of Chancellor. So the dumb and ignorant TF are being led around thinking that this blockade of Naboo that was orchestrated by Darth Sidious that it will end the taxes on trade routes levied by the Republic Senate.

At the same time Palpatine the senator from Naboo who is also Darth Sidious, will use this blockade of his home palnet of Naboo to win sympathy votes from the other senate members. Other than the ones that aren't in his pocket at least. And use it to his advantage to call for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valorum. When Padme arrives to speak to Valorum, Palpatine uses her to make the call for no confidence. Because she even states that Valorum is her biggest supporter. That is why he sent the Jedi in secret. But when the leader of the planet is the one that calls for a vote of no confidence in one of her biggest supporters, now the rst of the senate can see that Valorum is really weak and ineffective because he can't even resolve a lame trade dispute between a lonely member planet and a trade company.

But bear in mind that Darth Sidious=Palpatine. So he is manipulating the senate and the TF for cross purposes. That is what bad guys do. They manipulate people. So the TF thinks all this is going to get the senate to cave and get them to drop the taxes on trade routes while the TF strong arm the peaceful citizens of Naboo.

So the entire conflict that forms the basis of TPM's story is predicated upon the Trade Federation being too stupid to realize that Naboo is a political ally?

Galvatron wrote:So the entire conflict that forms the basis of TPM's story is predicated upon the Trade Federation being too stupid to realize that Naboo is a political ally?

No. The TF and Naboo are both within Republic jurisdiction. But the TF is also a business as well. So by Palpatine/Sidious goading the TF to specifically target Naboo because,

1. Palp/Sids is the senator for Naboo.
2. Palp/Sids is manipulating the TF into blockading Naboo to force the Republic Senate to drop the trade taxes.
3. Naboo is an easy target also because they do not have an army or military that is equal to the TF forces.
4. Naboo and the TF are not allies. Naboo is just a planet that inhabits a place along the route that the TF uses for trading.

So in the beginning when the blockade is already set up, then the Jedi arrive and Palp/Sids then has the TF try to kill the Jedi while also pushing the invasion too. Now we can forget about the taxes on trade routes and the blockade at this point. The invasion is the only priority at this point. That is what the Queen goes to Coruscant for is to have Chancellor Valorum end the invasion that is currently taking place.

This again...

Yeah, you can make it work by teasing out a lot of the details. It's just the details aren't exactly clear. I mean the general outline is more or less clear: Palpatine convinced the TF to blockade Naboo to protest taxes or something. Fine.

But then he convinces them to actually invade the planet. At that point it stops being really clear what the TF is getting out of all this. From their perspective I guess it's to further escalate their attempt to strong arm the Republic into lowering taxes - but escalating from a blockade to an invasion seems pretty extreme, and it's not too clear how the TF possibly thought this would benefit them. Yeah, yeah, Sith lord manipulating, etc. I know. I guess the idea is Palpatine convinced them that invading would be an awesome idea because the Republic would basically recognize the invasion as legal (via some nebulous treaty that Amidala is forced to sign) and then just roll over and give in to all demands. Why the TF believed this is not readily apparent. Let's assume it was just a big Sith mind trick.

I mean, what's the TF's public reason for blockading Naboo? There must be some legitimate political angle that they're working if they feel that legally blockading Naboo will win them anything.

And then you have Palpatine's speech to the Senate in which he said: "A tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

Calling the taxation a "tragedy" is hardly supportive, so it seems pretty clear that Naboo officially opposed that bit of legislation as well.

Galvatron wrote:I mean, what's the TF's public reason for blockading Naboo? There must be some legitimate political angle that they're working if they feel that legally blockading Naboo will win them anything.

And then you have Palpatine's speech to the Senate in which he said: "A tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

Calling the taxation a "tragedy" is hardly supportive, so it seems pretty clear that Naboo officially opposed that bit of legislation as well.

The tragedy was the INVASION which started with the taxes on trade routes. Now whatever it was that Naboo needed to have imported to them or even whatever the Naboo exports was not able to happen because the TF was blockading. Even in the opening crawl it says that the TF has stopped all shipping to Naboo. So that means that no goods were coming in or getting out. So the TF was under the assumption that the blockade was going to get the weak and ineffective Republic Senate to give into their demands. So if the blockade worked and the senate just said okay we will drop the taxes on trade routes if you stop the blockade. So the TF the whole time thought that they would get the taxes repealed by the senate and not have to pay them. So for the TF it is good. They are greedy and having no taxes to pay to do business means they don't have to shell out any money to conduct their business of trading. And usually greedy people don't want to spend money they feel they don't have to spend.

So I will state again that the "tragedy" you are speaking about is the invasion of Naboo. That STARTED with the taxes on trade routes. Yes it was originally just a minor political squabble that had the TF, senate and Naboo involved. Then the Jedi got involved and it all snowballed into bigger problems from there. So yes there was definitely a tragedy as far as the Republic was concerned. An invasion is most definitely enough to warrant a tragedy.

Channel72 wrote:This again...

Yeah, you can make it work by teasing out a lot of the details. It's just the details aren't exactly clear. I mean the general outline is more or less clear: Palpatine convinced the TF to blockade Naboo to protest taxes or something. Fine.

But then he convinces them to actually invade the planet. At that point it stops being really clear what the TF is getting out of all this. From their perspective I guess it's to further escalate their attempt to strong arm the Republic into lowering taxes - but escalating from a blockade to an invasion seems pretty extreme, and it's not too clear how the TF possibly thought this would benefit them. Yeah, yeah, Sith lord manipulating, etc. I know. I guess the idea is Palpatine convinced them that invading would be an awesome idea because the Republic would basically recognize the invasion as legal (via some nebulous treaty that Amidala is forced to sign) and then just roll over and give in to all demands. Why the TF believed this is not readily apparent. Let's assume it was just a big Sith mind trick.

What the TF wanted was to have the senate repeal the taxes on trade routes. Yes, it is that simple. It may not seem like a compelling reason to some, but to the characters in the film it meant a lot to them. Me as an audience viewer don't care about taxes on trade routes. The TF and the Republic do. But because I don't care about the taxes myself, I do realize though that there needs to be a starting point. The taxes on trade routes were the starting point of what lead to Palp/Sids becoming Chancellor. Once he was Chancellor then all the events that followed all lead up to what we see at the end of ROTJ.

Interesting that a simple little trade dispute is what lead to all the events in the other films that followed. It is really funny when one thinks of it this way.

Channel72 wrote:But then he convinces them to actually invade the planet. At that point it stops being really clear what the TF is getting out of all this. From their perspective I guess it's to further escalate their attempt to strong arm the Republic into lowering taxes - but escalating from a blockade to an invasion seems pretty extreme, and it's not too clear how the TF possibly thought this would benefit them. Yeah, yeah, Sith lord manipulating, etc. I know. I guess the idea is Palpatine convinced them that invading would be an awesome idea because the Republic would basically recognize the invasion as legal (via some nebulous treaty that Amidala is forced to sign) and then just roll over and give in to all demands. Why the TF believed this is not readily apparent. Let's assume it was just a big Sith mind trick.

When Sidious ordered them to invade, the TF didn't want to. They even asked if it would be legal, to which Sidious responds that he will make it legal.

That scene makes it pretty clear that the TF is scared shitless of Sidious and pretty much going along with it because they're in too deep (what with trying to murder Jedi and all).

I'm not saying TPM is a masterfully crafted movie or anything, but the above was hardly unclear. The initial reason for the blockade beyond some nebulous "taxation on trade routes" and "why Naboo, of all places?" may not be. But the invasion and what follows is pretty much because the TF is too scared of Sidious to say no. Which I guess you can put back to the initial blockade and "why Naboo?" because Sidious promised them it would work (somehow) and/or they were too afraid to say no.

How they fell under Sidious' influence is another matter. But in my opinion, largely irrelevant. YMMV on that score.